A Right of Secession?

CorporateWhore
CorporateWhore Posts: 1,890
edited August 2007 in A Moving Train
I figured this board could use a change of pace.

Generally, secession is only talked about by hardcore rednecks from Montana. But, it's a topic that interests me (i.e. hardcore redneck from Virginia) because I enjoy reading civil war history.

Did Lincoln have the constitutional authority to keep the states from seceding? Does the constitution grant the federal government the right to force states to remain in the union?

In my view, it doesn't. Nothing in the constitution expressly says that the states cannot secede from the union and since our federal government has ENUMERATED powers, that means the power of secession is left to the states or the people, respectively (article 9). I believe that the southern states did have the right to secede from the union. Granted, their reasons for doing so were not optimal. But, when we talk about states' rights, isn't the right to not be a part of the union the most important one?

I also think the southern states would've eventually given up slavery. It may have taken longer, but most individuals in the South did not own slaves.

We see in other countries that secession is spoken about surprisingly frequently in modern times. Look at Quebec in Canada, Northern Ireland in Britain, Scotland in Britain, and the Balkan states. Those are just western nations too.

Secession sort of received a black eye from the Civil War, but it should be considered a more fundamental right of states than it is. Perhaps that might keep a wayward federal government in check.
All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
-Enoch Powell
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • Ms. Haiku
    Ms. Haiku Washington DC Posts: 7,376
    From the title I thought you were going to talk about Vermont

    http://www.boston.com/news/local/vermont/articles/2007/06/03/in_vermont_nascent_secession_movement_gains_traction/
    There is no such thing as leftover pizza. There is now pizza and later pizza. - anonymous
    The risk I took was calculated, but man, am I bad at math - The Mincing Mockingbird
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    I think it should be encouraged.
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  • CorporateWhore
    CorporateWhore Posts: 1,890
    Ms. Haiku wrote:
    From the title I thought you were going to talk about Vermont

    http://www.boston.com/news/local/vermont/articles/2007/06/03/in_vermont_nascent_secession_movement_gains_traction/

    I did not hear of that.

    Economically, not a whole lot would change if states seceded. If they built tarriff walls though, that might hurt trade.
    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
    -Enoch Powell
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    CorporateWhore wrote:
    I did not hear of that.

    Economically, not a whole lot would change if states seceded. If they built tarriff walls though, that might hurt trade.

    I think the average wage earner works something like three months of the year paying federal taxes.
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  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    gue_barium wrote:
    I think the average wage earner works something like three months of the year paying federal taxes.

    Somebody correct me if I'm wrong on that. I think that figure would have to include Social Security and Medicare tax. I'm not opposed to those two taxes, actually. It's just the rest of it that's BS.
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  • CorporateWhore
    CorporateWhore Posts: 1,890
    gue_barium wrote:
    Somebody correct me if I'm wrong on that. I think that figure would have to include Social Security and Medicare tax. I'm not opposed to those two taxes, actually. It's just the rest of it that's BS.

    Why are you opposed to the rest of it? What happens to the poor who can't afford insurance or medical care? What happens to those who can't afford housing, school supplies, transportation, condoms, birth control, food stamps, cigarettes?

    What about the poor? You don't think they deserve anything?
    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
    -Enoch Powell
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    CorporateWhore wrote:
    Why are you opposed to the rest of it? What happens to the poor who can't afford insurance or medical care? What happens to those who can't afford housing, school supplies, transportation, condoms, birth control, food stamps, cigarettes?

    What about the poor? You don't think they deserve anything?

    Um, whatcha talkin' bout willis?

    I should refine my statement.

    The military budget is beyond any sort of reason I can put into words here. That's the problem right now. That's what I mean about the rest of it.
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  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    gue_barium wrote:
    Um, whatcha talkin' bout willis?

    I should refine my statement.

    The military budget is beyond any sort of reason I can put into words here. That's the problem right now. That's what I mean about the rest of it.

    I can take that a step further.

    It is the military budget, CW, that is costing you a possible future of peace. And I think you know it. This war is so pervasive, and so costly that you are already warring against your fellow Americans in fear of what the future may bring for you.
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  • blackredyellow
    blackredyellow Posts: 5,889
    CorporateWhore wrote:
    I did not hear of that.

    Economically, not a whole lot would change if states seceded. If they built tarriff walls though, that might hurt trade.

    Are you talking about change for the seceded states or the ones that remained?
    My whole life
    was like a picture
    of a sunny day
    “We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
    ― Abraham Lincoln
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    CorporateWhore wrote:
    me (i.e. hardcore redneck from Virginia)

    most honest i've ever seen you be on here about your philosophies.
    CorporateWhore wrote:
    Did Lincoln have the constitutional authority to keep the states from seceding? Does the constitution grant the federal government the right to force states to remain in the union?

    probably not. and i really wish lincoln had let them go. we'd be a lot better off up here.
    CorporateWhore wrote:
    I also think the southern states would've eventually given up slavery. It may have taken longer, but most individuals in the South did not own slaves.

    probably true. it was morally reprehensible and they'd have caught up o the rest of the world eventually.
    CorporateWhore wrote:
    We see in other countries that secession is spoken about surprisingly frequently in modern times. Look at Quebec in Canada, Northern Ireland in Britain, Scotland in Britain, and the Balkan states. Those are just western nations too.

    none of them have achieved it though. except the balkans. but it took the complete destruction and dissolution of another country to do so.
  • tybird
    tybird Posts: 17,388
    soulsinging wrote:
    probably not. and i really wish lincoln had let them go. we'd be a lot better off up here.
    ...and we would have been far better if we had not been "reconstructed" by the Federal government and its business cronies following the "War of Northern Agression" ;) Seriously, the South would be a far better place if we had not experienced Reconstruction or had gone through the process with Lincoln still alive. Thanks to that nasty business.....the largest landholders in the South tend to be northern corporations who carpet-bagged their way to that distinction.

    The question of secession has never been tried in a real court nor has it ever been brought before one.
    All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
  • tybird
    tybird Posts: 17,388
    soulsinging wrote:
    none of them have achieved it though. except the balkans. but it took the complete destruction and dissolution of another country to do so.
    Of course, Yugoslavia was an artifical nation-state forged under the rule of a single powerful leader. Most of the Balkan states had a limited history as an independent nation. They were traditionally governed by the Ottoman Empire.
    All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
  • CorporateWhore
    CorporateWhore Posts: 1,890
    tybird wrote:
    Of course, Yugoslavia was an artifical nation-state forged under the rule of a single powerful leader. Most of the Balkan states had a limited history as an independent nation. They were traditionally governed by the Ottoman Empire.

    Is that a Machiavelli quote in your sig?
    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
    -Enoch Powell
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    CorporateWhore wrote:
    Is that a Machiavelli quote in your sig?

    "Watership Down

    Tells the story of a motley band of rabbits who desert their ancient warren when the gentle Fiver predicts imminent destruction of all who remain. Led by Fiver's intelligent brother, Hazel, the refugees set out on an epic search for a new home."
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  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    tybird wrote:
    ...and we would have been far better if we had not been "reconstructed" by the Federal government and its business cronies following the "War of Northern Agression" ;) Seriously, the South would be a far better place if we had not experienced Reconstruction or had gone through the process with Lincoln still alive. Thanks to that nasty business.....the largest landholders in the South tend to be northern corporations who carpet-bagged their way to that distinction.

    The question of secession has never been tried in a real court nor has it ever been brought before one.

    to the victor go the spoils. you've gotten your revenge by destroying the country with this nationalistic evangelical political thing y'all kick-started down there ;)
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    gue_barium wrote:
    Watership Down

    Tells the story of a motley band of rabbits who desert their ancient warren when the gentle Fiver predicts imminent destruction of all who remain. Led by Fiver's intelligent brother, Hazel, the refugees set out on an epic search for a new home.

    I remember a very good animated feature back in the late '70's called, (if I remember right) "The World According to NIMH".
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  • tybird
    tybird Posts: 17,388
    gue_barium wrote:
    Watership Down

    Tells the story of a motley band of rabbits who desert their ancient warren when the gentle Fiver predicts imminent destruction of all who remain. Led by Fiver's intelligent brother, Hazel, the refugees set out on an epic search for a new home.
    Good job .....great book......good movie. It's like "Old Yeller," it always makes me cry at the end.
    All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
  • tybird
    tybird Posts: 17,388
    soulsinging wrote:
    to the victor go the spoils. you've gotten your revenge by destroying the country with this nationalistic evangelical political thing y'all kick-started down there ;)
    You mean the party of Lincoln??? The South did not move to the Republican side until the Reagan years. In fact, most of our state-wide offices are still held by Democrats.....legislature is still majority Democrat. How the myth got started that the movement of the Republicans to the far right is a Southern thing is beyond me.......and George Wallace was a life-long Democrat.
    All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
  • tybird
    tybird Posts: 17,388
    gue_barium wrote:
    I remember a very good animated feature back in the late '70's called, (if I remember right) "The World According to NIMH".
    Just re-released on DVD......caught it on HBO or some such a couple of weeks back. Really good movie.
    All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    tybird wrote:
    Just re-released on DVD......caught it on HBO or some such a couple of weeks back. Really good movie.

    Fuckin' A. Thought my memory was playing tricks on me. I'd love to see it again. Thanks for the info.

    Another great animated feature from back in that day that I won't forget is...shit, I forget the name of it. "American Rock". Is that the name of it?
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