China arming insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan

El_Kabong · June 2007

Vedderlution_Baby! wrote:

This isn't the first time a country has profited off a war that didn't involve them. When there's a buck to be made, it's going to be made. We need to think long and hard before deciding what to do about this.

yeah, look at us support for hitler...hell, GE even sold hitler weapons AFTER we got involved in the war!

El_Kabong · June 2007

jlew24asu wrote:

I just dont see it this way. if we attacked "terrorism" on ALL fronts it would be world war 3 across the globe. its just too wide spread. what we can do is attack and surpress the terrorists who attacked our country on 9/11. besides them, we have no choice but to look the other way. the world is a fucked up place.

then why go into iraq, instead?

mammasan · June 2007

NCfan wrote:

You are arguing over semantics - as if we didn't prepare or know that declaring war on Japan would de facto bring us into the European theater we were already ankle depp in of what had by that point truly become a global war.

The friend or your enemey is your enemy at least on some level. And Saddam was clearly about as anti-American as you can get and had proven he was capable of mass murder. And reasonable person would assume he would support the same for America given the chance. And after all, wasn't this what the war was about - not giving him the chance?

You used our participation in WW II to illustrated our efforts in the War against terrorism. You likened our declarion of war with germany to our pre-emptive invasion of Iraq. this is a mistake since we never pre-emptrively declared war on any of the Axis nations. I for one am extremelt frustrated when someone compares, even slightly, our efforts in Iraq with our efforts during WW II. They are not similiar in any way shape or form. The axis powers declared war on us and we relatiated. If anything we are more like the Axis powers this time around. You may call it semantics I call it sticking to the facts and not distorting them to justify some ridiculous war.

Cosmo · June 2007

NCfan wrote:

This thread brings up something to mind... China is going to be the world's superpower in the next few decades. They have the people, they have the economy, they are building the army - and they have an agenda just like anybody else in the world.

To me, this only underscores the importance of "being the world's police" as many on this board would say. It is imperative that we use the few remaining decades we have left to exert our influence on the word.

That means going into Darfur with troops, seeing Iraq through, seeing Afghanistan through. Putting pressure on countries like Iran and Syria. Checking groups like Hamas and Hezbollah at every turn until they denounce the use of terrorism.

Becuause folks, if history is any indicator, the Chinese aren't going to give one fuck about these rouge countries or groups unless they threaten their business interest. Look at the human rights record of China....

America believes in helping people fight for a democratic process in their land, and we should continue to show that by becoming involved as much as we can sustain - until one day we cannot. Then these people will truly be left to fend for themselves.

...
I see where you are coming from NCFan... but, seriously... regarding China.... that train has left the station. It is only a matter of time, now. All we can HOPE for is that the Chinese use the current technology to protect the environment from the pollution caused by industrialization... insetad of going the cost cutting pollute and don't give a damn path.
And your arguement would hold water if our past actions did not conflict with your, 'We come in peace' message. Like, going to help the people of the Middle East and meddling in their political affairs to serve the best interest of America are two different things. We use the former as a guise and the latter as our policy.
We had our chance and we blew it. We SHOULD have become the benevolent Super Power and spread our wealth, not our politics/economics to the people of the world. Made frieds who would side with us, instead of business partners who hedge their bets with our opponents. Our past actions have come home to roost... and it's not a pretty picture.

jlew24asu · June 2007

gabers wrote:

Bottom line is that if this is true, that the Chinese government has knowledge of or a direct role in arms shipments to Iran and/or "insurgents" in Afghanistan/Iraq, then we must fucking do something! If this is the case, economic sanctions should be the very least we should do. The thought that we're losing two to three soldiers a day to these arms, let alone what losses the Iraqis themselves have sustained, are truly unbelievable. If so, China should be at the very top of the "Axis of Evil", whatever that is. Fuck Iran, China is a bigger threat. They're not too big to be spanked, either.

this sounds reasonable. we shouldn't turn a blind eye to this. I would like to see proof of exactly what they are doing.

my2hands · June 2007

mammasan wrote:

Sunni and Shias are both getting sick and tired of the foreign jihadist killing Iraqis.

the number of foreign fighters in Iraq is extremely low. contrary to popular belief

NCfan · June 2007

mammasan wrote:

You used our participation in WW II to illustrated our efforts in the War against terrorism. You likened our declarion of war with germany to our pre-emptive invasion of Iraq. this is a mistake since we never pre-emptrively declared war on any of the Axis nations. I for one am extremelt frustrated when someone compares, even slightly, our efforts in Iraq with our efforts during WW II. They are not similiar in any way shape or form. The axis powers declared war on us and we relatiated. If anything we are more like the Axis powers this time around. You may call it semantics I call it sticking to the facts and not distorting them to justify some ridiculous war.[/quote

Talk about distortion. Don't take my comparison out of context. I made the argument that 9/11 sped up and gave us an impetus to nation build in the Middle East, whereas we could have otherwise continued our 12 year trend of dealing with Saddam with mostly soft power - much like Pearl Harbor sped up an inevitable showdown, which ultimately led to decades of nation-building across the globe, with an increasingly beligerent and expansionist Japan.

This really has nothing to do with who invaded who first. The point is that in both cases catastrophic attacks grabed the attention of our nation and propelled us into action in a way we would not have considered otherwise. That is the only comparion i was trying to make if you go back and read my post. The point I was trying to make beyond that is that maybe Iraq was not "ready" for democracy and that we all probably recognized that. But 9/11 forced our hand to if nothing else change our foreign policy to deal with a threat we had never faced before.

How telling it is that you strain out the gnat of a miniscule WWII/Iraq comparison while swallowing 8 other paragrapshs of response to a post in which you flat-out demonize the United States for attempting to nation-build in the past, even going so far as to say that some people NEED to live in oppresive dictatorships while others simply don't deserve democracy. Those are pretty harsh judgements from somebody who "moralizes" that we have no business tending to the affairs of others.

NCfan · June 2007

my2hands wrote:

the number of foreign fighters in Iraq is extremely low. contrary to popular belief

Much like the numbers of Sunni and Shia extremist who have taken up arms against each other and the government. One suicide bomb that kills 50 people has the same affect as if 1,000 militiamen stormed and sacked a city in Iraq.

mammasan · June 2007

NCfan wrote:

mammasan wrote:

You used our participation in WW II to illustrated our efforts in the War against terrorism. You likened our declarion of war with germany to our pre-emptive invasion of Iraq. this is a mistake since we never pre-emptrively declared war on any of the Axis nations. I for one am extremelt frustrated when someone compares, even slightly, our efforts in Iraq with our efforts during WW II. They are not similiar in any way shape or form. The axis powers declared war on us and we relatiated. If anything we are more like the Axis powers this time around. You may call it semantics I call it sticking to the facts and not distorting them to justify some ridiculous war.[/quote

Talk about distortion. Don't take my comparison out of context. I made the argument that 9/11 sped up and gave us an impetus to nation build in the Middle East, whereas we could have otherwise continued our 12 year trend of dealing with Saddam with mostly soft power - much like Pearl Harbor sped up an inevitable showdown, which ultimately led to decades of nation-building across the globe, with an increasingly beligerent and expansionist Japan.

This really has nothing to do with who invaded who first. The point is that in both cases catastrophic attacks grabed the attention of our nation and propelled us into action in a way we would not have considered otherwise. That is the only comparion i was trying to make if you go back and read my post. The point I was trying to make beyond that is that maybe Iraq was not "ready" for democracy and that we all probably recognized that. But 9/11 forced our hand to if nothing else change our foreign policy to deal with a threat we had never faced before.

How telling it is that you strain out the gnat of a miniscule WWII/Iraq comparison while swallowing 8 other paragrapshs of response to a post in which you flat-out demonize the United States for attempting to nation-build in the past, even going so far as to say that some people NEED to live in oppresive dictatorships while others simply don't deserve democracy. Those are pretty harsh judgements from somebody who "moralizes" that we have no business tending to the affairs of others.

How does being attacked on 9/11 give us the right to go invade a country that had absolutely nothing to do with the events and give us the right to think that we can barge into the Middle East and start nation building. It is that attitude that gets us into these messes and then people sit there wondering why some fanatics fly planes into our buildings.

I also stand by what I said. Some people don't deserve democracy. If people are going to use that priviledge to elect a government based on hatred who's primary purpose is the annihilation of another country than no those people have not earned the right to democracy. If people from a certain country can not put aside their difference to come together to form a productive society than no those people do not deserve a democracy. That is not to say that some where down the road they will be capable of functioning within a democracy but at present time we shouldn't be experimenting with any country.

The entire Middle East is a fucking powder keg waiting to blow and the more we keep sticking our noses in there the better the chance that we get our face blown the fuck off. And please don't try to sell me that we care so much about these people and our intentions are purely altruistic. We don't give a shit about democracy over there. We care about keeping them in line so the oil keeps flowing freely and cheap. Once the oil runs out our government wouldn't give a rats ass if they all butchered themselves.

Stop trying to export democracy all over the place and start worring about the one our government has been trampling on over here.

ProvidenceHunter · June 2007

my2hands wrote:

the number of foreign fighters in Iraq is extremely low. contrary to popular belief

Really? Where did you get this information from? Because many of the soldiers I have talked to that have been over there say there are a lot of foreign fighters in Iraq.

But maybe you have a better source.

mammasan · June 2007

ProvidenceHunter wrote:

Really? Where did you get this information from? Because many of the soldiers I have talked to that have been over there say there are a lot of foreign fighters in Iraq.

But maybe you have a better source.

The Iraq Study Group report states that foreign jihadist make-up a small percentage of the violence over in Iraqi. The majority of the attacks against Iraqis and Coalition forces is carried out by Shi'ite militias and/or Sunni/Baathist insurgents.

China arming insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan

Comments

Categories