China arming insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan
mammasan
Posts: 5,656
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
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would you do the same exact thing as this current administration is doing...
sit on your hands with them tied behind your back and do nothing?
I thought so.
Lol. jeez, Jlew. Who am I? Gandhi?
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Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Strength
There is an idealism that wars of all kinds are unnecessary. The "War" on "Terrorism" has been idealized as a necessity in the defense of our country. It's the most absurd piece of hogwash in the history of hogwash. There's big business at the root of all of it, whatever side you think you're on, and what you are told in the news and by your peers has nothing at all to do with the reality of what is business as usual for those that conduct these sort of affairs.
It is the machinations of the Military Industrial Complex that prints the news in this country, and worldwide. They draw the lines, size us up, tell us who is good, and who is bad.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
War on War is a beautiful Wilco song. I won't quote it because I don't want to annoy Jlew.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde
I don't think he can get it through his head that people thrive on other people killing each other. And do it for a living. Over generations. Instigate, and promote it... fictionalize it...
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2010 watch it go to fire
There is no war on terrorism. I hate to quote John Edwards but it's just a fucking bumper sticker. How can we be fighting a war against terrorism when we harbor and provide a safe haven for terrorists here, see Orlando Bosch and Luis Posada Carilles? How can we be fighting a war against terrorism when we continue to befriend and protect a country that finances terrorism? How can we be fighting a war agaisnt terrorism when we maje excuses for a country that arms the very people that our killing our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan?
The war on terror is this generation's war on drugs. It's a fucking slogan to get the country all nationalistic and onboard with the government's agenda.
The war on terror is a blurry notion, the war on the axis of evil is quite clear. We know exactly who the enemy is. I think it's actually a blend of the two, fighting terror limited to the axis of evil (and the stereotypes that go with it, I think a bearded arab has a higher chance of being stopped at customs than other people).
But if you did that who would america borrow money from?
The economy has polarized to the point where the wealthiest 10% now own 85% of the nation’s wealth. Never before have the bottom 90% been so highly indebted, so dependent on the wealthy.
Yes we know who the enemy is but what are we doing about those countries, specially the one's we have corporate ties with, that fund and arm these people. Until we decide to attack the problem on all front and not just the fronts that are convenient to us, the war on terrorism will be a fraud.
What's funny about the Chinese is how much they've taken to capitalism. The bottom line over there is money ... That, coupled with xenophobia, racism, and a complete disregard for both human life and the welfare of the planet's ecosystems makes for one toxic society. Again ... How many more steps before the U.S. starts to look this bad?
I disagree. Also by attack I don't neccesarily mean with military force. We have nations who are funding the very same people that are hell bent on killing us. A few of those nations, Syria and Iran, we are attempting to deal with. The other nations though, like China and Saudi Arabia, we ignore because of the business interests we have in those countries. To me that shows that our government is clearly more interested in protecting corporate interests above human interests.
As long as we only go after, wether it's with force or diplomacy, the parties that are convenient for us we will never make a dent in this battle. Actions like the invasion of Iraq was and is a big show for the public so the moron is Washington can turn around as say "See we are battling terrorism". By doing this they don't have to worry about disrupting the cash flow by dealing with real problem nations like Saudi Arabia and China.
Of course, I'd be all for both of them stopping that shit, and everyone else too, but dont think it'll happen anytime soon
*puts on Masters Of War"
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
The sad truth is this: It will take another massive attack on US soil for everyone (politicians, activists, citizens) to really prioritize and figure out how to fight Radical Islam. The War in Iraq was a horrible mistake and miscalculation in several ways. But neither never going in or leaving ASAP is going to end the threat the West faces. If we leave (which we will in the near future), the Islamists will claim victory and promote it in their propaganda as the triumph of Allah over the cowardly infidels. If we never went in, the same radicals would have been just as focused on attacking the West.
The US needs to empower dissidents in Iran/Syria as much as possible without compromising their national support. The Solidarity movement there is encouraging. As far as China is concerned, I'd say Bush is selling us out. He's a globalist who compromises the Free Market by leaving the borders open - which creates illegally cheap labor and lowers wages/takes away American jobs. It's only a matter of time before someone smuggles a WMD across that border somehow and uses it on US soil, as well.
Secure the borders now, George.
You make the point that we may not be fighting this war appropriately, but you like Edwards don't make the case that indeed this is not a war.
It's not a conventional war. Terrorism is an ideal and you can't fight that with tanks and bombs. The onlt way to defeat terrorism is to cut off it's supply of loyal jihadist and you sure as hell aren't going to get that done when you kill 7 children while trying to take out some Al Qaida leader.
So I stand by my statement and I feel that I have made my case that this is not a war. We maybe going at it as it was a war and as long as we continue to do that we will fail.
To me, this only underscores the importance of "being the world's police" as many on this board would say. It is imperative that we use the few remaining decades we have left to exert our influence on the word.
That means going into Darfur with troops, seeing Iraq through, seeing Afghanistan through. Putting pressure on countries like Iran and Syria. Checking groups like Hamas and Hezbollah at every turn until they denounce the use of terrorism.
Becuause folks, if history is any indicator, the Chinese aren't going to give one fuck about these rouge countries or groups unless they threaten their business interest. Look at the human rights record of China....
America believes in helping people fight for a democratic process in their land, and we should continue to show that by becoming involved as much as we can sustain - until one day we cannot. Then these people will truly be left to fend for themselves.
What gives us the right to exert our influence onto the world. It's that attitude and action that has caused so much hatred for us in the Middle East. Instead maybe we should mind our own business.
Terrorism is no more an ideal than launching a 2 million dollar cruise missle is an ideal. The ideal we are fighting is radical Islam. And this brand of faith can, just like any other militant faith that has sprung up and become extinct in the face of progress, can be fought and defeated as well.
The way to defeat it is to restore order, and a rule of law that is suitable for a decent, liberal society. The way to achieve this is through a stable governement that settles disputes through political discourse as opposed to bloodshed. As history has shown, the only way to establish that kind of society, that kind of government is through fighting those that oppose it - this means using the military. We are fighting now in the hopes that we will never have to fight again.
How can you expect democracy from a country or a people who hate each other.
What gives Iran the right to exert their influence on Iraq, Syria and Lebanon? What gives Al Qaida the right to exert their influence on the world? What gives the Taliban the right to enslave Afghanistan to their firebrand religion? What gives North Korea the right to fire missles over Japan?
The reality is they have the right, becuase in each case the only thing stopping them is their own self-restraint. It is obvious that groups like these, and others around the world do not respect the liberal, civil societies abound the world. They do not give creedence to laws. They do not recogonize the balance that you and I respect.
We are in a perverbial race, that you are in denial about. I know it sucks, but if we do not participate, if we do not exert our influence - they others are going to continue on. They aren't going to quit just becuase we do!
I don't "expect it" but I believe it is possible becuase most people, most citizens of Iraq do not hate each other. That is what you would be made to believe by the media, but as we all know on this board - it is only a small fraction of the population that have taken up arms.
If you are an Iraqi living in Baghdad and you need food - you go to the market. If you need supplies, you go to the store. If you want to continue your education, you go to school. Yes, in certain areas this is just too risky. But in many, many areas it is the norm. Absolutely, there are enormous security problems in Iraq - but these are not the same conditions when one thinks about warfare.
If a suicide bomber kills 75 people as today, it garners front page headlines in the same mannor that the invasion of Iwo Jima would have 62 years ago. People are made to believe that Iraq is a lost cuase.
The jihadist aren't fight to defeat us, they are only fighting to make us quit - to give up - to lose our will. They know that is all they have to do. If the world was united in securing Iraq, hell if just the US could muster what it took to stand behind the effort - this would be a very, VERY different conflict!