What is the answer to Radical Islam?

ArmsinaV · July 2007

I'm curious what people's thoughts are.

Do you think that if the West essentially abandoned the region (left Iraq, withdrew support from Israel), the jihadist movement would die down significantly? Or, do we need to defeat the ideology some other way?

Kann · July 2007

ArmsinaV wrote:

I'm curious what people's thoughts are.

Do you think that if the West essentially abandoned the region (left Iraq, withdrew support from Israel), the jihadist movement would die down significantly? Or, do we need to defeat the ideology some other way?

It's a cliché answer but, education. Let hope and eductation flow in the region and no one will be interested in the fundamentalism point of view anymore.

FinsburyParkCarrots · July 2007

The reasons for the spread of politicised, radical Islamic ideology are very complex, particularly in Britain, where the end of the British Empire has seen the global economic result of "reverse colonisation" (the phenomenon where former colonial subjects of the Indian Subcontinent found they had to head to the old imperial centre, England, to sustain a living). Racial and class separation, poor educational structures within British society itself, ghetto-like segregation of communities in poorer towns and cities, and a sense of racist and Orientalist Otherness reinforced all the time in the western media , all work to create a feeling of disenchantment in many young people born in Britain but of colonised Indian subcontinental/now largely Pakistani origin. Where they'd expected hope of redress from their previous colonial exploitation, a sense of bitterness at being marginalised even to this day continues. Some young males have gone to fight coalition forces in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Someone said education was the key to changing this, but British governments need to fund education better in poorer areas around the UK, in the first place.

However, in the case of these recent attacks, we're dealing with hospital consultants, so even the comparatively affluent seem set on destabilising British infrastructure.

godpt3 · July 2007

Kann wrote:

It's a cliché answer but, education. Let hope and eductation flow in the region and no one will be interested in the fundamentalism point of view anymore.

education... and the complete westernization and destruction of muslim culture. Bomb Iraq w/ Playboys and textbooks.

Eliot Rosewater · July 2007

http://www.jcu.edu/philosophy/gensler/goldrule.htm

Rushlimbo · July 2007

An ideology of hate will defeat itself.

godpt3 · July 2007

don't gimme no wrote:

http://www.jcu.edu/philosophy/gensler/goldrule.htm

Golden Rule (modified): Do Unto Others as You Would Have Done to You... But Do It First!!!

tybird · July 2007

godpt3 wrote:

education... and the complete westernization and destruction of muslim culture. Bomb Iraq w/ Playboys and textbooks.

You can bomb my yard w/ Playboys & textbooks as long as they are the textbooks that need for the fall semester.

The Sword has always been the West's answer to the Islam "problem" since the founding of that religion. New answers are needed.

mammasan · July 2007

A good start would be to stop fueling it. Our actions have fueled the fires of radical Islam. The first step to curbing this problem would be to re-evaluate our foreign policy. Our second step would be to choke off the financing. Saudi Arabia would be a good start. The money the royal family makes off of our oil consumption is used to build and finance madrahas that preach hatred against the West. It is used as multi-million dollar donations to questionable charities. It is used to build private water parks and elaborate palaces for the princes and princesses of th Al Sa'ud family while huge portions of the population live in less than human conditions with no easy access to water. It is used to throw elaborate parties with alcohol and sexual slaves while the rest of the country is brutally forced to follow sharia (sp) law.

Maybe once we stop supporting and protecting these brutal and oppressive regimes, in the region, we can start curbing radical Islam.

ArmsinaV · July 2007

mammasan wrote:

A good start would be to stop fueling it. Our actions have fueled the fires of radical Islam. The first step to curbing this problem would be to re-evaluate our foreign policy. Our second step would be to choke off the financing. Saudi Arabia would be a good start. The money the royal family makes off of our oil consumption is used to build and finance madrahas that preach hatred against the West. It is used as multi-million dollar donations to questionable charities. It is used to build private water parks and elaborate palaces for the princes and princesses of th Al Sa'ud family while huge portions of the population live in less than human conditions with no easy access to water. It is used to throw elaborate parties with alcohol and sexual slaves while the rest of the country is brutally forced to follow sharia (sp) law.

Maybe once we stop supporting and protecting these brutal and oppressive regimes, in the region, we can start curbing radical Islam.

How do we stop the Saudi abuses from our standpoint?

NCfan · July 2007

ArmsinaV wrote:

I'm curious what people's thoughts are.

Do you think that if the West essentially abandoned the region (left Iraq, withdrew support from Israel), the jihadist movement would die down significantly? Or, do we need to defeat the ideology some other way?

Here is a good quote that refers to the recent plot in Britain that sums up why the US leaving Iraq and the region all-together will not suppress the jihadist movement.

"The bombers are not only reacting against the worst in our system of government: the torture and the use of chemical weapons in Iraq, Guantanamo Bay, support for Arab dictators. They oppose the best in our system of government too: the intellectual freedom to write novels that question religion, the sexual freedom of women to pick their own partners. When I receive my own tedious drizzle of jihadi death-threats, they always mention my homosexuality long before they get to my views on foreign policy. In his "Address to the American People" in October 2002, Osama Bin Laden said "the worst kind of event" committed by America was not a foreign policy atrocity - of which there are many - but "your President Clinton's immoral acts committed in the official Oval Office" with Monica Lewinsky. To them, this is a war against blowjobs and novellists as much as a war against occupation.

So what can we do to defuse the ticking bomb of British jihadism? On all fronts, the solution lies not in abandoning the values of liberal democracy, but in adhering to them much more scrupulously. If we restrain our leaders whenever they try to violate our values by using torture, or chemical weapons, or arming tyrants - indeed, if we put them on trial for it - we will choke off the more obvious blowback. But that's not enough. We also need to unpick the totalitarian ideology of jihadism by democratically opening up Islamic theology, so that over a generation, fewer and fewer young men can convince themselves they are "good Muslims" when they murder innocents."

mammasan · July 2007

ArmsinaV wrote:

How do we stop the Saudi abuses from our standpoint?

We can't force them to stop but we can stop supporting them and/or turning a blind eye to their brutality and rapant abuse of their citizenry.

The first step that can be taken to lessen, or completely sever our support of the Saudi government is to cut our dependency on Saudi oil. If Brazil can start using sugar ethanol instead of petroleum to fuel their vehicles I don't understand how a country like the US, which is supposed to be far more advanced, can not find a way to free ourselves of our dependence on Saudi oil. We knew back in the 1970's, during the Oil shortages that relying on the Middle east to fuel our country could be a problem. You can't tell me that a country that took a little more than a decade to put a human being on the moon could not have come up with a viable alternative to petroleum in 30 years. We ignored the warnings signs because too may powerful people where making too much money.

Second would be to stop protecting them. The largest buyer of US military hardware in the world is the Saudi government. The Saudi Royal Security force is trained and armed by the US military. Without our protection the Al Sa'uds would have been publicly beheaded in Riyadh a long time ago. (Note: I'm not advocating that they be beheaded.) While we criticize other governments for the manner in which they treat their people we allow Saudi Arabia to get away with the same acts. Iraq is a perfect example of this. Our government constantly mentions how Iran and Syria are supplying weapons and helping to finance the Sunni insurgents or Shi'ite militias. this is true but you never hear a word about the same support Saudi Arabia is offering to the Sunni insurgents. Saudi Arabia has a Shi'ite minority that it treats like second class citizens. The last thing the Al Sa'uds want to see is another Shi'ite controlled government in the region bolstering the hopes of the Shi'ites within their own borders.

The disenfranchised people in Saudi Arabia see this. They see the US supporting this corrupt oppressive regime. While they live in slums barely able to support their families the royals live in opulence. The know that our governments knows this but still we continue to give them more money so they can buy more yachts and more palaces. To top this all off then the governments build religious schools and staffs them with radical Wahabis who take in the young men off the streets feed them, cloth them and teach them to hate the West. Yet we continue to pump billions of dollars into that country and sit around with this idiotic agape look on our face when they fly planes into our buildings.

The only way to curb, I say curb because I don't think we will ever be able to completely elimenate radical Islam, is to stop supporting the countries that create it. Saudi Arabia is the biggest culprit and as long as we keep suckling on the Saudi petro tit and protecting the royal family we will never make a dent on curbing radical Islam. We can bomb them day and night and invade/occupy country and country and it will not make a difference. It will only continue the circle of violence.

NCfan · July 2007

mammasan wrote:

We can't force them to stop but we can stop supporting them and/or turning a blind eye to their brutality and rapant abuse of their citizenry.

The first step that can be taken to lessen, or completely sever our support of the Saudi government is to cut our dependency on Saudi oil. If Brazil can start using sugar ethanol instead of petroleum to fuel their vehicles I don't understand how a country like the US, which is supposed to be far more advanced, can not find a way to free ourselves of our dependence on Saudi oil. We knew back in the 1970's, during the Oil shortages that relying on the Middle east to fuel our country could be a problem. You can't tell me that a country that took a little more than a decade to put a human being on the moon could not have come up with a viable alternative to petroleum in 30 years. We ignored the warnings signs because too may powerful people where making too much money.

Second would be to stop protecting them. The largest buyer of US military hardware in the world is the Saudi government. The Saudi Royal Security force is trained and armed by the US military. Without our protection the Al Sa'uds would have been publicly beheaded in Riyadh a long time ago. (Note: I'm not advocating that they be beheaded.) While we criticize other governments for the manner in which they treat their people we allow Saudi Arabia to get away with the same acts. Iraq is a perfect example of this. Our government constantly mentions how Iran and Syria are supplying weapons and helping to finance the Sunni insurgents or Shi'ite militias. this is true but you never hear a word about the same support Saudi Arabia is offering to the Sunni insurgents. Saudi Arabia has a Shi'ite minority that it treats like second class citizens. The last thing the Al Sa'uds want to see is another Shi'ite controlled government in the region bolstering the hopes of the Shi'ites within their own borders.

The disenfranchised people in Saudi Arabia see this. They see the US supporting this corrupt oppressive regime. While they live in slums barely able to support their families the royals live in opulence. The know that our governments knows this but still we continue to give them more money so they can buy more yachts and more palaces. To top this all off then the governments build religious schools and staffs them with radical Wahabis who take in the young men off the streets feed them, cloth them and teach them to hate the West. Yet we continue to pump billions of dollars into that country and sit around with this idiotic agape look on our face when they fly planes into our buildings.

The only way to curb, I say curb because I don't think we will ever be able to completely elimenate radical Islam, is to stop supporting the countries that create it. Saudi Arabia is the biggest culprit and as long as we keep suckling on the Saudi petro tit and protecting the royal family we will never make a dent on curbing radical Islam. We can bomb them day and night and invade/occupy country and country and it will not make a difference. It will only continue the circle of violence.

I pretty much agree, but at the present moment, I think the best way to reform Saudi Arabia is through stablizing Iraq. Not to say converting to alternative, green energy shouldn't be a priority. I just think that more hearts and minds will be won/lost, more jihadist emboldened/reformed with the outcome of Iraq.

What that country needs is more soldiers on the ground. And I'm not talking about American soldiers. America needs international support. We need help! Iraq isn't just our fight, it's the world's fight.

Cosmo · July 2007

Answer? Why do WE need to find an answer to THEM?
And if we are looking for 'The Answer'... why not look at what Japan and China are doing. I mean, Why aren't Japan and China in these extremist's crosshairs? They do a lot of business with them... why aren't car bombs going off in Tokyo or Beijing?

mammasan · July 2007

NCfan wrote:

I pretty much agree, but at the present moment, I think the best way to reform Saudi Arabia is through stablizing Iraq. Not to say converting to alternative, green energy shouldn't be a priority. I just think that more hearts and minds will be won/lost, more jihadist emboldened/reformed with the outcome of Iraq.

What that country needs is more soldiers on the ground. And I'm not talking about American soldiers. America needs international support. We need help! Iraq isn't just our fight, it's the world's fight.

Well you and I will always disagree on Iraq. I don't think the solution is more boots on the ground, though it wouldn't hurt. The problem there is the ineffectiveness of the central government and the fact that we waited too long to address the sectarian divide in that country. Had we had a plan for that from the get go instead of the notion that we would be greeted in similar fashion to when our troops liberated France in WWII, we may have been able to control some of the violence and allowed a middle class to form and flourish in that country. As it stands now there is no middle class in Iraq, because they all left. there is only wealthy and poor, and the poor make perfect recruiting targets for the Sunni insurgents, Shi'ite militias, and foreign Jihadist.

The delay in action is costing us dearly and I don't think we will ever be able to re-cooperate from that. There may still be time to fix the problems with the central government but it is going to be an uphill battle. There is also the infiltration of the military and police forces by the militias, insurgents, and jihadists. There are reports that in certain provinces they simple will not do their job because of their religious loyalties.

I hate to say it but I think iraq is bordering on a lost cause. I know the implications our pulling out may have but I honestly don't see how we can turn that country around. I don't honestly see the jihadist winning though. Both the Sunnis and Shi'ites are tired of them and have even aided in their capture. the main problem is that these same people will probabaly turn and kill each other and their is nothing we can do to stop that.

Milestone · July 2007

Cosmo wrote:

Answer? Why do WE need to find an answer to THEM?
And if we are looking for 'The Answer'... why not look at what Japan and China are doing. I mean, Why aren't Japan and China in these extremist's crosshairs? They do a lot of business with them... why aren't car bombs going off in Tokyo or Beijing?

Great point.

I'd guess that Japan and China aren't prime targets of the Extremists because they don't have military bases built all over the middle east.

onelongsong · July 2007

ArmsinaV wrote:

I'm curious what people's thoughts are.

Do you think that if the West essentially abandoned the region (left Iraq, withdrew support from Israel), the jihadist movement would die down significantly? Or, do we need to defeat the ideology some other way?

i saw an interview on cnn friday with a converted islamic in britain. he said that all non-islamics must be killed and attacks will continue.

since they drew the line in the sand it's now kill them before they kill you.

onelongsong · July 2007

Milestone wrote:

Great point.

I'd guess that Japan and China aren't prime targets of the Extremists because they don't have military bases built all over the middle east.

china and japan didn't "deface" their religion by modifying it. have we forgotten the islamic takeover of northern india? this isn't something new. they have better weapons and easier access to further countries with modern air travel. that is why we see the increase now.

NCfan · July 2007

Cosmo wrote:

Answer? Why do WE need to find an answer to THEM?
And if we are looking for 'The Answer'... why not look at what Japan and China are doing. I mean, Why aren't Japan and China in these extremist's crosshairs? They do a lot of business with them... why aren't car bombs going off in Tokyo or Beijing?

Well aren't THEY attacking and killing US? There are many reasons why there aren't bombs going off in Japan and China.

One of them is the same reason American's are fighting in the streets of Baghdad and not Rhiyad. We need the Saudi's right now although they stand in stark contrast to everything we are trying to accomplish in the Middle East.

In the same way, a terrorist group like Hezbollah needs the support of their state-sponsor Iran - who needs the petro-dollars it gets from china, although they stand in stark contrast to everyting the Jihadist stand for and are trying to accomplish in the world.

Another reason is that the Chinese and Japanese have no significant historical or religious ties to the region... they don't serve as a good scapegoat like the Brits and Americans do.

mammasan · July 2007

Milestone wrote:

Great point.

I'd guess that Japan and China aren't prime targets of the Extremists because they don't have military bases built all over the middle east.

And why do we have bases in the Middle east?

To protect the Saudi government and the oil fields.

NCfan · July 2007

mammasan wrote:

Well you and I will always disagree on Iraq. I don't think the solution is more boots on the ground, though it wouldn't hurt. The problem there is the ineffectiveness of the central government and the fact that we waited too long to address the sectarian divide in that country. Had we had a plan for that from the get go instead of the notion that we would be greeted in similar fashion to when our troops liberated France in WWII, we may have been able to control some of the violence and allowed a middle class to form and flourish in that country. As it stands now there is no middle class in Iraq, because they all left. there is only wealthy and poor, and the poor make perfect recruiting targets for the Sunni insurgents, Shi'ite militias, and foreign Jihadist.

The delay in action is costing us dearly and I don't think we will ever be able to re-cooperate from that. There may still be time to fix the problems with the central government but it is going to be an uphill battle. There is also the infiltration of the military and police forces by the militias, insurgents, and jihadists. There are reports that in certain provinces they simple will not do their job because of their religious loyalties.

I hate to say it but I think iraq is bordering on a lost cause. I know the implications our pulling out may have but I honestly don't see how we can turn that country around. I don't honestly see the jihadist winning though. Both the Sunnis and Shi'ites are tired of them and have even aided in their capture. the main problem is that these same people will probabaly turn and kill each other and their is nothing we can do to stop that.

I would agree that Iraq is teetering on a lost cause and that we truly let the golden moment slip through our hands to rebuild that country.

I think we will most likely fail in the long run in Iraq becuase of of a severe lack of American leadership and the miss-trust that has formed between the government and a lazy, pampered citenzenry that isn't informed or concerned about the well-fair for the world at large.

What we need is about an extra 20 to 30 thousand troops each from countries like England, France, Germany, Russia, China, etc... That would say to the Sunni and Shia militants that the world is tired of your bullshit, and we are bringing authority to stop the bloodshed once and for all.

No we cannot fix wounded pride, or religous differences - but we can say that there will be no more killing because of it. If we have to put troops on every street corner of every town in Iraq and confiscate every weapon down to the last sling-shot in Iraq - we can bring the rule of law to that country. It just takes the will power.

Iraq suffers from the same disease that many countries in the Middle East are embroiled in. If we can fix Iraq, then we can bring hope and the prospect of prosperity to a large corner of the world. I wish people would realize this and support the effort.

What is the answer to Radical Islam?

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