What is the answer to Radical Islam?

callen

Cosmo wrote:

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Think about what you have just stated...
Now... think about an Arab Country where the vast majority believe Israel is evil and does not belong where they are.
Give them the power to elect leaders by themselves... guess who they will vote for. And look at the election results in Iraq. The majority of people are Shi'ites. guess who's in charge. There is a reason why Muqtada Al Sadr wields influence over there... he has a ton of supporters. There is a likely possibility that Al Sadr (or like minded religious fundamentalist) will rise to power in Iraq through the Democratic process we have enabled. A Shi'ite controlled power who aligns themselves with the other Shi'ites in the region... Iran. Maybe you've forgotten that these are the SAME SHI'ITES that gave us Ayatollah Khomeini and Hezbollah.
Yeah... Democracy as a Principle is a good thing. In practice, the "Good" depends upon which side of the fence you are on... America or Iran.

so the only thing that will work is the people realizing that the other way (non-theocratic) is a better way to live..and eventually they will stive for change.....in addition the more trade, travel and contacts they have with the western world the faster this will happen. Assure you more drink and play when they come to the US than not.....just goes to show. Course....poster up in this thread said some pot may help....imagine all the pot we could have dropped on Iraq for the cost of this war...that would have chilled them out...fer sure. Soooooo again....sing with me.....just a little patience....yaaaaaaayyyaaaaaa.......just a little patience...

Cosmo

mammasan wrote:

Well said, but this problem isn't only in Iraq and Iran, Look at Palestine where Hamas won the majority in their last elections. Look at Lebenan where Hezbollah's political faction is gaining power in that government. Look at Egypt where the political arm of the Muslim Brotherhood is gaining strength. All of these parties have steadily grown in size and power, within their respective governments, through the democratic process.

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Oh, I agree completely. Democracy in the Middle East means a hell of a lot more countries that want Israel to pack and move to Idaho.
And here's a little hint:
If the political parties have their own PRIVATE ARMED MILITIAS... elections usually are not a good method for them to choose their own government.

RolandTD20Kdrummer

Ahnimus wrote:

Everyone needs to accept total determinism.

Cause and effect. I drink lots of water...soon I will visit bathroom. I kill a bunch of people...soon something bad will happen to me in return.

edit: http://www.determinism.com/

Cosmo

callen wrote:

so the only thing that will work is the people realizing that the other way (non-theocratic) is a better way to live..and eventually they will stive for change.....in addition the more trade, travel and contacts they have with the western world the faster this will happen. Assure you more drink and play when they come to the US than not.....just goes to show. Course....poster up in this thread said some pot may help....imagine all the pot we could have dropped on Iraq for the cost of this war...that would have chilled them out...fer sure. Soooooo again....sing with me.....just a little patience....yaaaaaaayyyaaaaaa.......just a little patience...

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Actually a benovolent Dictatorship would work for them. I mean, again... look at the Iraqi elections. Sure, the individual people cast their ballots... but, many of them went to their religions elders for guidance. They are the ones who told them who they should vote for. imagine if that was how it worked here... where your Church instructed whom to vote for... and you followed their instruction. Is that Democracy?
A Benovolent dictator who called all the shot and took care of ALL his people would work. But, how many dictators are benevolent?
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And I do like the pot thing. When was the last time you seen two stoned dudes fighting. They would be more concerned about getting some Doritos than to put together and plant that I.E.D.

callen

Cosmo wrote:

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Actually a benovolent Dictatorship would work for them. I mean, again... look at the Iraqi elections. Sure, the individual people cast their ballots... but, many of them went to their religions elders for guidance. They are the ones who told them who they should vote for. imagine if that was how it worked here... where your Church instructed whom to vote for... and you followed their instruction. Is that Democracy?
A Benovolent dictator who called all the shot and took care of ALL his people would work. But, how many dictators are benevolent?
...
And I do like the pot thing. When was the last time you seen two stoned dudes fighting. They would be more concerned about getting some Doritos than to put together and plant that I.E.D.

but slow change from within is the only way this will work, I see no other option...the difference between the lifestyle in a theocratic fundemental Muslim world and that of our current western world will eventually cause its demise....we as humans want comfort....sex....prosperity...fun..its in our nature..and all humans will to this strive, this is the exact reason so many fundementalists are working so hard to keep this fight going...as they know...everytime they get us to kill one of them...it keeps them in power....we're playing right into their hands...think about it...what if we didn't go into Iraq...we had many many muslims on our side...now...we fked that opportunity up.

Cosmo

callen wrote:

but slow change from within is the only way this will work, I see no other option...the difference between the lifestyle in a theocratic fundemental Muslim world and that of our current western world will eventually cause its demise....we as humans want comfort....sex....prosperity...fun..its in our nature..and all humans will to this strive, this is the exact reason so many fundementalists are working so hard to keep this fight going...as they know...everytime they get us to kill one of them...it keeps them in power....we're playing right into their hands...think about it...what if we didn't go into Iraq...we had many many muslims on our side...now...we fked that opportunity up.

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Again.. i totally agree. The change HAS to come from them. For example, it is likely that the outcome in Iraq would have been completely different if THEY had initiated a rebellion and the U.S. sent in military forces to aid and assist them. Our mandating Democracy upon them created the current situation. They have to WANT Democracy in order for it to work.
How would present day America look if France had come over here in 1760 and fought the British and defeated them and set up their form of Parlimentary Rule in place?

RolandTD20Kdrummer

You can lead a society to water but you can't make them drink your water in the form of piss.

ArmsinaV

NCfan wrote:

Can people responsibly make the claim that the two are just not compatible???

They are compatible. My point is that it won't look like a Western-style democracy. Like I said earlier, Islam is a social/political system as much as a religion. There is absolutely no concept of a separation of church and state. They are, in many ways, the same thing. Most Muslims are not extremists, but there are many who want sharia law implemented. And even more want at least a serious sharia influence on their government policies/decisions. This is much different than the West, where there is a concerted effort to separate what religion says and what government does. (Even by most religious people in public office.) Everything is tied to the Quran and what religous leaders declare, including a democratically elected government.

even flow?

Maybe we could round them all up and put them on an island just like they used to do with the lepers in the bible. Then they will either blow each other up for fun and games to keep up with the jihad. Or they can start learning how to build boats to get back to the main land to start blowing up western places again.

godpt3

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

You can lead a society to water but you can't make them drink your water in the form of piss.

alternately: You can lead a horticulture, but you can't make her think

surferdude

ArmsinaV wrote:

What is the answer to Radical Islam?
I'm curious what people's thoughts are.

Love and only love.

kenny olav

FinsburyParkCarrots wrote:

The reasons for the spread of politicised, radical Islamic ideology are very complex, particularly in Britain, where the end of the British Empire has seen the global economic result of "reverse colonisation" (the phenomenon where former colonial subjects of the Indian Subcontinent found they had to head to the old imperial centre, England, to sustain a living). Racial and class separation, poor educational structures within British society itself, ghetto-like segregation of communities in poorer towns and cities, and a sense of racist and Orientalist Otherness reinforced all the time in the western media , all work to create a feeling of disenchantment in many young people born in Britain but of colonised Indian subcontinental/now largely Pakistani origin. Where they'd expected hope of redress from their previous colonial exploitation, a sense of bitterness at being marginalised even to this day continues. Some young males have gone to fight coalition forces in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Someone said education was the key to changing this, but British governments need to fund education better in poorer areas around the UK, in the first place.

However, in the case of these recent attacks, we're dealing with hospital consultants, so even the comparatively affluent seem set on destabilising British infrastructure.

My friend, I just want to thank you for posting such well thought-out opinions time and time again.

Inkdaub

Kann wrote:

It's a cliché answer but, education. Let hope and eductation flow in the region and no one will be interested in the fundamentalism point of view anymore.

Yeah, education is the enemy of any and all religious extremism.

callen

Inkdaub wrote:

Yeah, education is the enemy of any and all religious extremism.

isn't that the truth....amen my brother...

RolandTD20Kdrummer

sprinkle some crack on it?

moegossard

The solution is simple. If the West insists on exploiting the resources in the Middle East, thereby undermining the dignity of people in those countries, the fighting will continue and will never end. There must be a reform in most of our trade policies and in the efficiency of energy use so the exploitation will stop. Religion is a tool that the powerful use to manipulate the desperate and that's always been the case throughout human history.

blackredyellow

moegossard wrote:

The solution is simple. If the West insists on exploiting the resources in the Middle East, thereby undermining the dignity of people in those countries, the fighting will continue and will never end. There must be a reform in most of our trade policies and in the efficiency of energy use so the exploitation will stop. Religion is a tool that the powerful use to manipulate the desperate and that's always been the case throughout human history.

I'm not sure if our exploitation of resources are undermining the dignity, but it's more that as long as there is a lot of money going to the people in power for these resources, there is absolutely no motivation for them to change anything. A civilization grows and advances to meet the changes and challenges that if faces, their leaders are on the oil gravy train so as far as they are concerned, there aren't any changes that need to be made, and all of the infighting is just greedy leaders using religion as a tool to try to get in position for the oil money.

shamrock95

ArmsinaV wrote:

I'm curious what people's thoughts are.

Do you think that if the West essentially abandoned the region (left Iraq, withdrew support from Israel), the jihadist movement would die down significantly? Or, do we need to defeat the ideology some other way?

Of course Education!!!...but that comes in peace time. In Arab regions their people need to run to the palaces and cut every man's throat wearing the long white clothes.........their families live a western lifestyle and everybody else in the country suffers....

the region suffers from years of mental depression battered by their own leaders...so sadd...maybe that is why they attacked us, a cry for help.

And All we have left is the racist, imperalist brothers from the west...God help us all.

soulsinging

ArmsinaV wrote:

I'm curious what people's thoughts are.

Do you think that if the West essentially abandoned the region (left Iraq, withdrew support from Israel), the jihadist movement would die down significantly? Or, do we need to defeat the ideology some other way?

i think a trip to the adult store, a little ky jelly, and a girl might go a long way. convince those nutcases that women are sexy and should be seen. it's impossible to stay pissed at the world when that blonde bombshell strolls by and your eyes glaze over and mouth begins to water.

soulsinging

Cosmo wrote:

imagine if that was how it worked here... where your Church instructed whom to vote for... and you followed their instruction. Is that Democracy?

actually, im pretty sure that IS how it works in many places here.