London gets oil aid from Venezuela

245

Comments

  • Posts: 21,037
    jlew24asu wrote:
    amazing how you continually bash the US but sing the praises of some asshole like chavez ...


    and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

    and Osama bin laden

    and hamas


    well you get the point

    You're full of shit.
    Provide just one example of where i've sung the praises of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad ,Osama bin laden, or hamas.
  • Posts: 21,037
    reborncareerist wrote:
    http://www.amnestyusa.org/countries/venezuela/index.do

    And its even from a source that shares your views on Israel!

    Hugo Chavez - showing the US who's master
    Hugh O'Shaughnessy
    Published 10 October 2005
    http://www.newstatesman.com/200510100012

    Venezuela, Hugo Chavez and permanent revolution
    27 January 2007
    http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/article.php?article_id=10538

    Interview with Father Roy Bourgeois
    "Hugo Chavez is giving the poor some hope, and it is contagious"
    Wednesday, Jan 21, 2004
    http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1090
  • Posts: 21,037
    Anyway, i'm off down the pub. I'll respond to the rest of your points tomorrow.
  • Posts: 5,700
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Hugo Chavez - showing the US who's master
    Hugh O'Shaughnessy
    Published 10 October 2005
    http://www.newstatesman.com/200510100012

    Venezuela, Hugo Chavez and permanent revolution
    27 January 2007
    http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/article.php?article_id=10538

    Interview with Father Roy Bourgeois
    "Hugo Chavez is giving the poor some hope, and it is contagious"
    Wednesday, Jan 21, 2004
    http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1090

    Hehe.....

    http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-fg-inflate11feb11,1,4720056.story?coll=la-news-a_section&ctrack=1&cset=true

    Reprinted for not registered: http://www.topix.net/content/trb/0429124115278161490529644273753734312808
  • Posts: 4,901
    "showing the US who's master?"

    WTF??? Dare I click?
    :)
  • Posts: 832
    Byrnzie wrote:
    You're full of shit.
    Provide just one example of where i've sung the praises of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad ,Osama bin laden, or hamas.

    He doesnt need to provide proof -- he is using the Fox news method of false accusations and then never owning up to them. Just make up some lies about him and you'll be even.
    War is Peace
    Freedom is Slavery
    Ignorance is Strength
  • Posts: 10,118
    Rushlimbo wrote:
    He doesnt need to provide proof -- he is using the Fox news method of false accusations and then never owning up to them. Just make up some lies about him and you'll be even.

    byzine is a big boy. he can stick up for himself.
  • Posts: 1,824
    So this Chavez guy is good at some things and questionable (at best) at others? As world leaders go, that's so very, um.... unusual? Somehow?

    He could have been Venezuela's FDR, but he's not - at least not yet. Ah, well. I wouldn't want him as my president, but apparently most of Venezuela does. He was re-elected by a larger margin than Bush - shit, he was re-elected by a larger margin than Reagan. So let's isolate him. Then, in a few years we could "liberate" his country.

    Dumb idea? Yeah, I thought so too.

    Now, considering what Chavez is getting from this deal with the British, it looks as though he's trying to expand beyond "oil is all" and wants to actually work on his country's physical infrastructure. Yeah, fuck Britian, dude. We should have let them secede way back when. Is it too late to kick them out of the Union?
  • Posts: 572
    Rockin'InCanada wrote:
    Yes. However I still found the state of the country to be delporable...someone help me here....was Hugo spouting off about trying to become the President for life or am I just hearing voices in my head again...postive I read it in multiple sources of differing politcal agenda....


    I'm curious, were referring to me as the "young lady"? Well, having just turned 34 that greaf if that's the case, just kidding ;)

    You are 100% right about the fact that Chavez said he would reform the Constitution to seek permanent reelection. And his latest move was to ask the Congress -constituted only by members of his political party- to hand him all Congressional powers so he can issue laws, decrees and whatever floats his boat for 18 months. Is really necessary considering he's constantly cheered every time he shows his face in the Congress building? To me this shows nothing but disdain towards democracy. Furthermore he issued a decree to declare Febreruary 4th a National Holiday. In February 4th, 1992 he made his first attempt at a Coup D' Etat. A true democrat!!!!

    About the alledged improvement of Venezuelan's living conditions. Yes, there are improvements in child mortality rates and malnourishing rates (however, the only countries with a deficit in these areas are African countries severely affected by AIDS). Poverty has decreased maybe 2 percentile points. On the contrary, extreme poverty, inequality and unemployment have increased. Infrastructure is falling apart all over the country; the amount of corruption is the same -or bigger- just switched sides (before it was in AD and COPEI hands). Human rights record is shameful. But I guess that developing countries can settle for less, at least that's what I get from reading this forum. We have to choose: either a democracy or poverty reduction. Guess what? Chile, has proven both can be achieved. Since the return of democracy reduced its povery rate by more than 20 percentile points, while respecting human rights, personal freedoms and having honest and accountable institutions...data available at: http://www.eclac.org

    Venezuela's dependency on oil exports is on the rise; agriculture, small and middle enterprise are disappearing, young professionals are fleeing the country. EU and the US Embassies are being flooded by people who wants to leave; and no, not all of these are "rich getting what they deserve", most of them are hard working people dissenting. I won't bother going into detail about his effect on South America's integration process; one word: disaster

    Is Chavez really that independent from USA? How much of Venezuela's revenue from oil stems directly from the US? Such percentage is unavailable (Venezuela's bureau of statistics is a beacon of transparency), but I'll say at least 30%.

    Ohh about giving cheap oil to London, I guess it is great for the city. But I'm guessing Venezuelans will be angry once again about the fact that their President keeps giving away their resources instead of solving their problems. Just like he did when he tried to buy himself a chair in the UN's Security Council or when he gave Evo Morales a plane to make a tour through the EU to get his support at MERCOSUR.

    Peace to all
    Caterina

    EDIT: just to improve the redaction. English (obviously) is not my native language
  • Posts: 4,901
    RainDog wrote:
    So this Chavez guy is good at some things and questionable (at best) at others? As world leaders go, that's so very, um.... unusual? Somehow?

    He could have been Venezuela's FDR, but he's not - at least not yet. Ah, well. I wouldn't want him as my president, but apparently most of Venezuela does. He was re-elected by a larger margin than Bush - shit, he was re-elected by a larger margin than Reagan. So let's isolate him. Then, in a few years we could "liberate" his country.

    Dumb idea? Yeah, I thought so too.

    Now, considering what Chavez is getting from this deal with the British, it looks as though he's trying to expand beyond "oil is all" and wants to actually work on his country's physical infrastructure. Yeah, fuck Britian, dude. We should have let them secede way back when. Is it too late to kick them out of the Union?

    Like farfromglorified suggested, you can play the "yeah, but he was elected!" card all you want ... It doesn't invalidate any of the concerns with Chavez that people brought up in this thread. I find it a bit concerning that you seem to brush off politically-motivated detention and torture as just another problem of the sort that all world leaders promulgate. Socialist dictators always get a free pass on the Train, for some reason. But if the person is more like the former leader in Chile, then bashing him and his U.S. allies is par for the course.
  • Posts: 2,057
    How does this count as aid? Seems like a straight up trade to me. A discount on some oil in fair exchange for some knowledge regarding transportation.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • Posts: 2,016
    CaterinaA wrote:
    I'm curious, were referring to me as the "young lady"? Well, having just turned 34 that greaf if that's the case, just kidding ;)

    You are 100% right about the fact that Chavez said he would reform the Constitution to seek permanent reelection. And his latest move was to ask the Congress -constituted only by members of his political party- to hand him all Congressional powers so he can issue laws, decrees and whatever floats his boat for 18 months. Is really necessary considering he's constantly cheered every time he shows his face in the Congress building? To me this shows nothing but disdain towards democracy. Furthermore he issued a decree to declare Febreruary 4th a National Holiday. In February 4th, 1992 he made his first attempt at a Coup D' Etat. A true democrat!!!!

    About the alledged improvement of Venezuelan's living conditions. Yes, there are improvements in child mortality rates and malnourishing rates (however, the only countries with a deficit in these areas are African countries severely affected by AIDS). Poverty has decreased maybe 2 percentile points. On the contrary, extreme poverty, inequality and unemployment have increased. Infrastructure is falling apart all over the country; the amount of corruption is the same -or bigger- just switched sides (before it was in AD and COPEI hands). Human rights record is shameful. But I guess that developing countries can settle for less, at least that's what I get from reading this forum. We have to choose: either a democracy or poverty reduction. Guess what? Chile, has proven both can be achieved. Since the return of democracy reduced its povery rate by more than 20 percentile points, while respecting human rights, personal freedoms and having honest and accountable institutions...data available at: http://www.eclac.org

    Venezuela's dependency on oil exports is on the rise; agriculture, small and middle enterprise are disappearing, young professionals are fleeing the country. EU and the US Embassies are being flooded by people who wants to leave; and no, not all of these are "rich getting what they deserve", most of them are hard working people dissenting. I won't bother going into detail about his effect on South America's integration process; one word: disaster

    Is Chavez really that independent from USA? How much of Venezuela's revenue from oil stems directly from the US? Such percentage is unavailable (Venezuela's bureau of statistics is a beacon of transparency), but I'll say at least 30%.

    Ohh about giving cheap oil to London, I guess it is great for the city. But I'm guessing Venezuelans will be angry once again about the fact that their President keeps giving away their resources instead of solving their problems. Just like he did when he tried to buy himself a chair in the UN's Security Council or when he gave Evo Morales a plane to make a tour through the EU to get his support at MERCOSUR.

    Peace to all
    Caterina

    EDIT: just to improve the redaction. English (obviously) is not my native language

    Yes you are correct and 34 is still young....well at least when I turn 34 I still want to be considered young :). Thanks again for some more input, I feel that some people here have some very idealized views of Ven. and that someone with first hand knowledge would be able to paint a more accurate picture of the country.

    Thanks.
  • Posts: 1,824
    reborncareerist wrote:
    Like farfromglorified suggested, you can play the "yeah, but he was elected!" card all you want ... It doesn't invalidate any of the concerns with Chavez that people brought up in this thread. I find it a bit concerning that you seem to brush off politically-motivated detention and torture as just another problem of the sort that all world leaders promulgate. Socialist dictators always get a free pass on the Train, for some reason. But if the person is more like the former leader in Chile, then bashing him and his U.S. allies is par for the course.
    I'm not giving him a pass. I'm just not going to call him a dictator right now. He was elected. For those that didn't vote for him (I used to work with a very anti-Chavez lady from Venezuela) all I can say is "yeah, you got stuck with a president you don't like. That happens in a democracy."

    And yes, politically motivated detention is wrong - moreso when a leader does it to members of his own country, as opposed to foriegners who happen to look like someone else, or were on the wrong battlefield at the wrong time. Good thing the U.S. left that practice behind after WWII............

    At any rate, Chavez has his problems. All countries do. However, if he weren't so Anti-Bush, we wouldn't even be talking about him right now (and that goes for both the left and the right). He'd just be some world leader who's not as bad as most, yet worse than many. I have faith that the people of Venezuela know what they're doing - and will know what to do in the future.

    I mostly came into this thread to read about the London deal. Comparitively, I really don't see anything wrong with it. As I said, there are far worse people they could be (and, like us, are) dealing with.
  • Posts: 1,824
    surferdude wrote:
    How does this count as aid? Seems like a straight up trade to me. A discount on some oil in fair exchange for some knowledge regarding transportation.
    Yeah, seriously. Were this anyone other than Chavez, would the deal be so "suspect?"

    I have strong reservations about this Chavez guy - more disappointing than frightening for me, though. However, I'm not going to criticize either him or London for what looks like an actual attempt to fix parts of his own country.
  • Posts: 4,901
    RainDog wrote:
    Yeah, seriously. Were this anyone other than Chavez, would the deal be so "suspect?"

    I have strong reservations about this Chavez guy - more disappointing than frightening for me, though. However, I'm not going to criticize either him or London for what looks like an actual attempt to fix parts of his own country.

    His country would probably need less fixing if it was better managed as an actual democracy, capable of cultivating relationships with so-called "capitalist devils" like the Americans.
    And no, that doesn't mean Bush is a great guy, and it doesn't mean that people need to agree with his policies. Most democracies in fact do not agree with Bush on any major political issues, yet the abuses of Chavez are still avoided in these places.
  • Posts: 1,824
    reborncareerist wrote:
    His country would probably need less fixing if it was better managed as an actual democracy, capable of cultivating relationships with so-called "capitalist devils" like the Americans.
    And no, that doesn't mean Bush is a great guy, and it doesn't mean that people need to agree with his policies. Most democracies in fact do not agree with Bush on any major political issues, yet the abuses of Chavez are still avoided in these places.
    I've never been to Venezuela, so I can't really comment on the on-the-ground realities. However, I'm not so sure they would need "less fixing." People like Chavez don't get elected if a country only needs some minor tweaking.

    As for abuses being avoided in places like the U.S., well, they weren't always. Nations evolve. We were able to work most of that out (not all, mind you), and I have faith that Venezuela will, too. And apparently Chavez isn't above dealing with Capitalist Devils, as the article featured in this thread shows.
  • Posts: 5,700
    Caterina, in her excellent post above, referred to Chile. For those who aren't aware, you can read more here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chile#Economy
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_Chile
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Boys
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augusto_Pinochet

    Chile's economic turn-around is both a wonderful and strange story. It's sad that their successes were marred by the some very disturbing non-economic actions by Pinochet and others in power. But for those looking for an interesting study in the effects of free market policies, Chile provides a fascinating example.
  • Posts: 5,700
    RainDog wrote:
    And apparently Chavez isn't above dealing with Capitalist Devils, as the article featured in this thread shows.

    Hehe...not only is he not "above" it, everything about his ridiculous plan requires it.
  • Posts: 1,824
    farfromglorified wrote:
    Hehe...not only is he not "above" it, everything about his ridiculous plan requires it.
    I know I shouldn't ask, but what exactly is ridiculous about giving London a discount on deisel for some help on improving general infrastructure? To me, it sounds a lot like one of those standard "labor/value" trades you're always discussing.
  • Posts: 5,700
    RainDog wrote:
    I know I shouldn't ask, but what exactly is ridiculous about giving London a discount on deisel for some help on improving general infrastructure? To me, it sounds a lot like one of those standard "labor/value" trades you're always discussing.

    There's absolutely nothing ridiculous about this trade, except for the fact that Chavez is simply trading something that he stole from someone else. Aside from that, however, it's perfectly fine.

    The "plan" I spoke of in my previous post wasn't in reference to this trade. It was in reference to his complete "socialistic revolution" that is only made possible by the capitalistic enterprise of selling oil at market prices to us "devils".

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