"Empirical"

Byrnzie · December 2006

angelica wrote:

Cool stuff: "For Schopenhauer, human will had ontological primacy over the intellect; in other words, desire is understood to be prior to thought, and, in a parallel sense, Will is said to be prior to being. In attempt to solve or alleviate the fundamental problems of life, Schopenhauer was rare among philosophers in considering philosophy and logic less important (or less effective) than art, certain types of charitable practice ("loving kindness", in his terms), and certain forms of religious discipline; Schopenhauer concluded that discursive thought (such as philosophy and logic) could neither touch nor transcend the nature of desire—i.e., Will. In The World as Will and Representation, Schopenhauer posited that humans living in the realm of objects are living in the realm of desire, and thus are eternally tormented by that desire (his idea of the role of desire in life is similar to that of Vedanta Hinduism and Buddhism, and Schopenhauer draws attention to these similarities himself). ...

Schopenhauer's identification of the Kantian noumenon (i.e., the actually existing entity) with what he termed Will deserves some explanation. The noumenon was what Kant called the Ding an Sich, the "Thing in Itself", the reality that is the foundation of our sensory and mental representations of an external world; in Kantian terms, those sensory and mental representations are mere phenomena. Schopenhauer departed from Kant in his description of the relationship between the phenomenon and the noumenon. According to Kant, things-in-themselves ground the phenomenal representations in our minds. Schopenhauer, on the other hand, believed phenomena and noumena to be two different sides of the same coin; noumena do not cause phenomena, but rather phenomena are simply the way by which our minds perceive the noumena, according to the Principle of Sufficient Reason, which is explained more fully in Schopenhauer's doctoral thesis, On the Fourfold Root of the Principle of Sufficient Reason." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Schopenhauer

Yep. Just don't read his article entitled 'On women'. You may think differently about him if yiou do. Although it is quite amusing in it's exagerrated misogyny. (I don't think he had much luck with the fairer sex!)

Edit: Oh, o.k then...here you are..

http://www.theabsolute.net/misogyny/onwomen.html

Still, his metaphysical works are great! I beleive that with Schopenhauers - and therefore philosophy's - 'The world as will and representation' (and Schopenhauers introduction into the west of Eastern philosophy and mysticism), and with sciences discovery of quantum physics, the western intellect came full circle. Unfortunately we have been floundering on the edge of the vista's opened up by this knowledge, albeit our submersion, especially during the 60's, into all things esoterical, occult, and mystical.

angelica · December 2006

Byrnzie wrote:

Yep. Just don't read his article entitled 'On women'. You may think differently about him if yiou do. Although it is quite amusing in it's exagerrated misogyny. (I don't think he had much luck with the fairer sex!)

Oh, exaggerated misogyny! Sounds interesting!

I'm pretty good about not throwing out the baby with the bathwater. I have an awful memory for retention of this stuff, and therefore don't often read up on these guys. When I do, I see where I resonate and where there are differences. It makes sense that there are differences between everyone, and ultimately, what leaps out at me are the similarities across the board.

angelica · December 2006

Byrnzie wrote:

Edit: Oh, o.k then...here you are..
http://www.theabsolute.net/misogyny/onwomen.html

:eek:

angelica · December 2006

Byrnzie wrote:

Still, his metaphysical works are great! I beleive that with Schopenhauers - and therefore philosophy's - 'The world as will and representation' (and Schopenhauers introduction into the west of Eastern philosophy and mysticism), and with sciences discovery of quantum physics, the western intellect came full circle. Unfortunately we have been floundering on the edge of the vista's opened up by this knowledge, albeit our submersion, especially during the 60's, into all things esoterical, occult, and mystical.

I completely agree, if I am understanding what you are saying.

soulsinging · December 2006

Ahnimus wrote:

Yea, just as spiritual as smoking Salvia or consuming LSD.

During traumatic periods a person's mind disconnects from reality and quite often goes into a dream-like state. These visions can be quite lucid. This can also happen if a person is clinically ill, such is the case with Schizophrenia and Dementia.

When a person is training to be a fighter pilot. They are placed into a centrifuge for flight training. Some times at high G's the blood is drained from their brain and their minds go into a psychotic state. They come back to awareness of reality when the blood returns to their brain.

There are multiple causes of those kinds of visions.

but you say they return to a normal state. how come when her "episode" was over, she had completely changed and her former behaviors (OCD, etc) were never seen again? that sounds like a dramatic re-wiring of the brain, not an episode followed by a return to her normal state. do you have any clue how this would have happened?

furthermore, who's to say lsd cannot be the catalyst for a significant spiritual experience?

angelica · December 2006

The piece it seems that Ahnimus is unable to process is that my subjective experience is the subjective experience of the healing of numerous very serious disorders. The subjective experience corresponds to the objective. They are two sides of the same coin. It is not about one or the other.

And for the record, spiritual experiences are not necessary for the healing of mental illness--the actual work I did was very mundane, very practical and down to earth. It is covered throughout psychology. All one needs to do is believe healing is possible, and to follow one's nose and to trust one's instincts, trying what seems plausible, and learning by trial and error.

soulsinging · December 2006

angelica wrote:

The piece it seems that Ahnimus is unable to process is that my subjective experience is the subjective experience of the healing of numerous very serious disorders. The subjective experience corresponds to the objective. They are two sides of the same coin. It is not about one or the other.

And for the record, spiritual experiences are not necessary for the healing of mental illness--the actual work I did was very mundane, very practical and down to earth. It is covered throughout psychology. All one needs to do is believe healing is possible, and to follow one's nose and to trust one's instincts, trying what seems plausible, and learning by trial and error.

yeah, ive been through some of it myself. im only curious as to what he thinks is the explanation making more sense than spiritual experience or whatever. his description of how it works made it seem like magic.

angelica · December 2006

soulsinging wrote:

yeah, ive been through some of it myself. im only curious as to what he thinks is the explanation making more sense than spiritual experience or whatever. his description of how it works made it seem like magic.

Yeah, magic....now it would be just plain old silly to think that I healed because of magic. To see it as that I was majorly inspired and that I used some good old fashioned positive thinking to uncover healing constitutes a much more reasonable, realistic way of looking at it.

Ahnimus · December 2006

angelica wrote:

Yeah, magic....now it would be just plain old silly to think that I healed because of magic. To see it as that I was majorly inspired and that I used some good old fashioned positive thinking to uncover healing constitutes a much more reasonable, realistic way of looking at it.

Yes, I'm not saying it's magic, I'm just saying you can not have an impossible experience. I believe you "cured" yourself through your "spiritual" experiences. But I also believe they were delusions.

Anyway, I'm done caring if you believe me. Go on superwoman, preach your bullshit and try to convert others. What the hell, I'll remain the only sane person alive and try to figure out what to do with all these vegetables.

angelica · December 2006

Ahnimus wrote:

Go on superwoman, preach your bullshit and try to convert others. What the hell, I'll remain the only sane person alive and try to figure out what to do with all these vegetables.

Interesting....

soulsinging · December 2006

Ahnimus wrote:

Yes, I'm not saying it's magic, I'm just saying you can not have an impossible experience. I believe you "cured" yourself through your "spiritual" experiences. But I also believe they were delusions.

Anyway, I'm done caring if you believe me. Go on superwoman, preach your bullshit and try to convert others. What the hell, I'll remain the only sane person alive and try to figure out what to do with all these vegetables.

vegetables dont have free will.

oh, and great job on trying to pass on my questions. you clearly have no idea how angelica managed to turn her life around, nor any clue how i did the same. you just like to pretend you know that the reason we have for it is wrong, despite the fact that you offer no alternative explanation that is more sensible or provable. thanks for playing.

farfromglorified · December 2006

Ahnimus wrote:

Go on superwoman, preach your bullshit and try to convert others. What the hell, I'll remain the only sane person alive and try to figure out what to do with all these vegetables.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

Ahnimus · December 2006

soulsinging wrote:

vegetables dont have free will.

oh, and great job on trying to pass on my questions. you clearly have no idea how angelica managed to turn her life around, nor any clue how i did the same. you just like to pretend you know that the reason we have for it is wrong, despite the fact that you offer no alternative explanation that is more sensible or provable. thanks for playing.

I know you continue to be an asshole to those that don't share your view. So I can infer that whatever spirituality you have must make you an asshole. Or is that your own free-will?

Ahnimus · December 2006

farfromglorified wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

Didn't anyone ever warn you about taking drugs?

soulsinging · December 2006

Ahnimus wrote:

I know you continue to be an asshole to those that don't share your view. So I can infer that whatever spirituality you have must make you an asshole. Or is that your own free-will?

i answered that in the other thread. my own free will. you're also the only person im an asshole to. based on your theory that we're all just reactive robots, wouldnt that mean im not an asshole, you just act like a dick and bring it out in people? the fact that as you point out everyone seems to gang up on you all the time might lend some credence to the theory that your behavior is what invites the reaction you get, not us.

and still... you have no reply to my question. im shocked truly.

farfromglorified · December 2006

soulsinging wrote:

based on your theory that we're all just reactive robots, wouldnt that mean im not an asshole, you just act like a dick and bring it out in people?

Well played, though it would have been classier without the "act like a dick" part.

Ahnimus · December 2006

soulsinging wrote:

i answered that in the other thread. my own free will. you're also the only person im an asshole to. based on your theory that we're all just reactive robots, wouldnt that mean im not an asshole, you just act like a dick and bring it out in people? the fact that as you point out everyone seems to gang up on you all the time might lend some credence to the theory that your behavior is what invites the reaction you get, not us.

and still... you have no reply to my question. im shocked truly.

So now I'm responsible for your actions when it serves you? You are a piece of work Soulsinging. Didn't you say your are studying law? How is that going for you? Can you wrap your head around that? I am surprised.

farfromglorified · December 2006

Ahnimus wrote:

Didn't anyone ever warn you about taking drugs?

Yes. Thanks for asking.

soulsinging · December 2006

farfromglorified wrote:

Well played, though it would have been classier without the "act like a dick" part.

class is over-rated. im on a message board, not in a court room and he seems to struggle with comprehending subtlety.

Abookamongstthemany · December 2006

angelica wrote:

Yeah, magic....now it would be just plain old silly to think that I healed because of magic. To see it as that I was majorly inspired and that I used some good old fashioned positive thinking to uncover healing constitutes a much more reasonable, realistic way of looking at it.

'When you go to a doctor, s/he prescribes a medication for you to take, or a treatment you will undergo, your body starts the healing process before the medicine is in your system or the exercise or surgical procedure has taken place. For most people, just seeing a doctor gives confidence that healing will occur. Depending on the patient’s cultural background, this is true whether the physician is a neurosurgeon at the Mayo Clinic or a tribal witch doctor. This is attributable to an extraordinary healing ability of the body by a process known as the placebo effect. What happens is that healing starts when you believe it will occur. Your mind buys into it and your body makes it happen. The great physician and humanitarian, Dr. Albert Schweitzer, gives us this insight - "The witch doctor succeeds for the same reason all the rest of us (medical doctors) succeed. Each patient carries his own doctor inside himself. They come to us not knowing that truth. We are at our best when we give the doctor who resides within each patient a chance to go to work."

Our body is a fantastic chemical factory that is capable of seemingly unbelievable things. For instance, there is the case of a 95-pound woman lifting up a two-ton car to save the life of her child who was trapped under its weight. This was due to a gigantic adrenaline release. As impressive a display of adaptability to a need this is, our body is capable of doing even more seemingly miraculous feats. Perhaps the most impressive of all is its’ ability to heal itself - of anything!

'This 2000-year-old statement is in perfect accord with the most cutting edge scientific and medical understanding of the 21st century. To quote Dr. Herbert Benson of the Harvard Medical School, "We know that belief can lead to healing or at least improvement in 50 percent to 90 percent of diseases, including asthma, angina pectoris, and skin rashes, many forms of pain, rheumatoid arthritis, congestive heart failure. They're all influenced by belief. We in medicine have made fun of belief by calling it the "placebo effect," or insisting that "It's all in your head." Yet, belief is one of the most powerful healing tools we have in our therapeutic arsenal."

http://www.meditationsociety.com/week29.html

"Empirical"

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