UK warns: Climate change could cause a worldwide recession

Obi Once · November 2006

surferdude wrote:

Right now Canada has oil exploration going on contributing quite a bit to Canada's greenhouse gas emissions. But that oil is being bought for consumption in Europe (and other countries). So shouldn't those greenhouse gas emissions be counted towards the country that uses the product and not the producing country?

How do you know the oil mainly goes to Europe? My sources say it goes south.

Green house emissions are acounted to the country who produce the emission.

fyi:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_sands
For every barrel of synthetic oil produced in Alberta, more than 80 kg of greenhouse gases are released into the atmosphere. About 5-10% of the two to four barrels of water used for processing is considered as wastewater. The forecast growth in synthetic oil production in Alberta threatens Canada's international commitments. In ratifying the Kyoto Protocol, Canada agreed to reduce, by 2012, its greenhouse gas emissions by 6% with respect to the reference year (1990). In 2002, Canada's total greenhouse gas emissions had increased by 24% since 1990.

Heineken Helen · November 2006

surferdude wrote:

So what. China has a small portion of land mass and significant portion of the population. That's a meaningless stat.

Right now Canada has oil exploration going on contributing quite a bit to Canada's greenhouse gas emissions. But that oil is being bought for consumption in Europe (and other countries). So shouldn't those greenhouse gas emissions be counted towards the country that uses the product and not the producing country?

good point... but isn't Canada making money from exporting it?

farfromglorified · November 2006

Obi Once wrote:

If they don't pay the tax, they don't buy the car or fuel.

Stop making it sound like choice -- it isn't choice. Tell me, what happens if I choose to "buy the car or fuel" and choose not to pay your tax?

Heineken Helen · November 2006

farfromglorified wrote:

I never said anything about killing someone. You need only consider this question -- what happens if someone doesn't pay your tax?

If somebody is holding a gun to my head... I am in fear of my life, the mere mention of a gun pointed at someones head is indicated as a threat of USING the gun, if it's a toy gun, well why mention it?

If a car is more expensive because of environmental taxes, I can either a. afford it or b. not afford it or c. consider why it's more expensive than the others and consider buying one of those instead... simple as that. The two situations are FAR from comparable. If I don't pay the tax I don't get the car.

Heineken Helen · November 2006

farfromglorified wrote:

Ok, so you agree that man-made effects of climate change are at least in part caused by people acting on their "self interests".

Now, would you agree with this statement:

"Any self-interested human being wants to continue living"

I think 'selfishness' is a more appropriate term than 'acting out of self interests'. Yes, the two may be the same but the former is probably a bit more suitable to the situation.

As for your statement, I would say: anyone who doesn't take their own life wants to keep living

Heineken Helen · November 2006

farfromglorified wrote:

Stop making it sound like choice -- it isn't choice. Tell me, what happens if I choose to "buy the car or fuel" and choose not to pay your tax?

You can't. If you want a car, you pay for the work that has gone into making that car, right, and you also pay for any work which is needed as a result of YOU DRIVING THAT CAR... it's like paying road tax.

farfromglorified · November 2006

Heineken Helen wrote:

I think 'selfishness' is a more appropriate term than 'acting out of self interests'. Yes, the two may be the same but the former is probably a bit more suitable to the situation.

They are the same. But you think the former is more applicable because selfish is a dirty word around here.

As for your statement, I would say: anyone who doesn't take their own life wants to keep living

Good. So if people act in their own interests and those interests dictate that they want to keep living, don't you think those self interests can be utilized to motivate people on climate change???

Heineken Helen · November 2006

farfromglorified wrote:

They are the same. But you think the former is more applicable because selfish is a dirty word around here.

Good. So if people act in their own interests and those interests dictate that they want to keep living, don't you think those self interests can be utilized to motivate people on climate change???

I'm sorry but I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. You remind me of a school teacher who ties to prompt ME to give the answers to the questions I've asked... but really, I'm just asking a question.

farfromglorified · November 2006

Heineken Helen wrote:

If somebody is holding a gun to my head... I am in fear of my life, the mere mention of a gun pointed at someones head is indicated as a threat of USING the gun, if it's a toy gun, well why mention it?

Because you automatically assume physical harm when a gun is pointed at you.

If a car is more expensive because of environmental taxes, I can either a. afford it or b. not afford it or c. consider why it's more expensive than the others and consider buying one of those instead... simple as that. The two situations are FAR from comparable. If I don't pay the tax I don't get the car.

See, that's the thing. The car isn't yours. You didn't make it. You didn't buy it.

If I wandered into the only car dealership in a small town and stood over each sales person and demanded that they raise their prices by 10% and give me that money from each sale, how long would it take until I was tossed out of there? Now, imagine I did the same but was armed to the teeth without any possible recourse provided to the dealership. I'd probably get my 10%, huh? And would you say that my actions were just because, well, no one had to buy or sell a car???

farfromglorified · November 2006

Heineken Helen wrote:

I'm sorry but I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. You remind me of a school teacher who ties to prompt ME to give the answers to the questions I've asked... but really, I'm just asking a question.

Then why are there no question marks in your post? If you have a question, ask it.

Heineken Helen · November 2006

farfromglorified wrote:

Because you automatically assume physical harm when a gun is pointed at you.

See, that's the thing. The car isn't yours. You didn't make it. You didn't buy it.

If I wandered into the only car dealership in a small town and stood over each sales person and demanded that they raise their prices by 10% and give me that money from each sale, how long would it take until I was tossed out of there? Now, imagine I did the same but was armed to the teeth without any possible recourse provided to the dealership. I'd probably get my 10%, huh? And would you say that my actions were just because, well, no one had to buy or sell a car???

But nobody is holding a gun to anybodys head, but since we use the gun rhetoric :rolleyes: if you buy a gun and use it to kill somebody, you are responsible for your actions? Yes??? If you steal something from somebody, you are responsible for your actions? Yes??? If you break somebody's window, you are responsible for your actions? Yes??? If you harm the planet in which we all live, should you not also be responsible for your actions???

farfromglorified · November 2006

Heineken Helen wrote:

But nobody is holding a gun to anybodys head, but since we use the gun rhetoric :rolleyes:

I'll ask it again: what happens if I don't pay your tax?

if you buy a gun and use it to kill somebody, you are responsible for your actions? Yes??? If you steal something from somebody, you are responsible for your actions? Yes??? If you break somebody's window, you are responsible for your actions? Yes??? If you harm the planet in which we all live, should you not also be responsible for your actions???

Yes, yes, yes! Everyone is responsible for their actions. And if the best response you have to those who harm the planet is to rob them, or to harm them, or to kill them, you have no moral high ground. Get it now?

Heineken Helen · November 2006

farfromglorified wrote:

I'll ask it again: what happens if I don't pay your tax??

You don't get the car

I've answered that one before.

farfromglorified wrote:

Yes, yes, yes! Everyone is responsible for their actions. And if the best response you have to those who harm the planet is to rob them, or to harm them, or to kill them, you have no moral high ground. Get it now?

Nope!

I'm not robbing or harming or killing anyone and haven't suggested that... but rather THEY are! The tax would be an advance payment for the damage they cause by buying the car, if they don't want to pay the extra money, they don't get the car, but they can buy another one... it's really not that difficult.

Obi Once · November 2006

ffg you present it like there is no choice, there is a choice: buy a low consuming car. Nobody is forcing you to buy the 5.0

farfromglorified · November 2006

Heineken Helen wrote:

You don't get the car I've answered that one before.

No, you don't understand. What if I do buy the car and don't pay your tax?

farfromglorified · November 2006

Obi Once wrote:

ffg you present it like there is no choice, there is a choice: buy a low consuming car. Nobody is forcing you to buy the 5.0

Again, this is the logic of the mafia. If I hold you up at the ATM, you still have lots of "choices". However, you cannot erase the fact that I'm threatening you with force if you make the "wrong" choice.

Heineken Helen · November 2006

farfromglorified wrote:

No, you don't understand. What if I do buy the car and don't pay your tax?

You don't get the car! You already pay a tax on cars when you buy them, right? Have you ever tried telling them you want the car without paying the tax???

Heineken Helen · November 2006

farfromglorified wrote:

Again, this is the logic of the mafia. If I hold you up at the ATM, you still have lots of "choices". However, you cannot erase the fact that I'm threatening you with force if you make the "wrong" choice.

Seriously... putting tax on a car is NOT akin to holding somebody up at an ATM... where the ultimate 'choice' is death

. You pay the tax/don't pay the tax... whatever choice you make, you don't die.

farfromglorified · November 2006

Heineken Helen wrote:

You don't get the car! You already pay a tax on cars when you buy them, right? Have you ever tried telling them you want the car without paying the tax???

Ah...and why don't I get the car HH??? Why would they not sell it to me???

farfromglorified · November 2006

Heineken Helen wrote:

Seriously... putting tax on a car is NOT akin to holding somebody up at an ATM... where the ultimate 'choice' is death . You pay the tax/don't pay the tax... whatever choice you make, you don't die.

Well that's nice of you not to kill me off. But, again, just because I hold you up at the ATM doesn't mean I'm going to kill you either.

UK warns: Climate change could cause a worldwide recession

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