Beware of Obama Comedown Syndrome

blackredyellow · February 2008

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

If people need a cheerleader for president who raises morale and is great with pep rallys so be it...it's certainly your opinion to have. But I'd prefer having having a dependable quarterback whose record shows consistency and isn't afraid to get out there and make the plays that best benefit his team. We all know the best pep rally doesn't amount to too much when gameday comes.

Honestly, what you just said sounds like what Bush supporters have been saying about Bush for his entire presidency.

Abookamongstthemany · February 2008

blackredyellow wrote:

Honestly, what you just said sounds like what Bush supporters have been saying about Bush for his entire presidency.

Well of course, because they believe in the actions he has taken. I don't but that's not the point I was making, obviously. The point still stands that a leader needs to be more than a cheerleader, imo.

my2hands · February 2008

Barack Obama
Anti Iraq War Rally
Chicago, IL
October 2, 2002 (The day President Bush and Congress agreed in Joint Iraq War Resolutuon)

Good afternoon. Let me begin by saying that although this has been billed as an anti-war rally, I stand before you as someone who is not opposed to war in all circumstances. The Civil War was one of the bloodiest in history, and yet it was only through the crucible of the sword, the sacrifice of multitudes, that we could begin to perfect this union, and drive the scourge of slavery from our soil. I don't oppose all wars.

My grandfather signed up for a war the day after Pearl Harbor was bombed, fought in Patton's army. He saw the dead and dying across the fields of Europe; he heard the stories of fellow troops who first entered Auschwitz and Treblinka. He fought in the name of a larger freedom, part of that arsenal of democracy that triumphed over evil, and he did not fight in vain. I don't oppose all wars.

After September 11th, after witnessing the carnage and destruction, the dust and the tears, I supported this administration's pledge to hunt down and root out those who would slaughter innocents in the name of intolerance, and I would willingly take up arms myself to prevent such tragedy from happening again. I don't oppose all wars. And I know that in this crowd today, there is no shortage of patriots, or of patriotism.

What I am opposed to is a dumb war. What I am opposed to is a rash war. What I am opposed to is the cynical attempt by Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz and other armchair, weekend warriors in this administration to shove their own ideological agendas down our throats, irrespective of the costs in lives lost and in hardships borne.

What I am opposed to is the attempt by political hacks like Karl Rove to distract us from a rise in the uninsured, a rise in the poverty rate, a drop in the median income - to distract us from corporate scandals and a stock market that has just gone through the worst month since the Great Depression. That's what I'm opposed to. A dumb war. A rash war. A war based not on reason but on passion, not on principle but on politics. Now let me be clear - I suffer no illusions about Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal man. A ruthless man. A man who butchers his own people to secure his own power. He has repeatedly defied UN resolutions, thwarted UN inspection teams, developed chemical and biological weapons, and coveted nuclear capacity. He's a bad guy. The world, and the Iraqi people, would be better off without him.

But I also know that Saddam poses no imminent and direct threat to the United States, or to his neighbors, that the Iraqi economy is in shambles, that the Iraqi military a fraction of its former strength, and that in concert with the international community he can be contained until, in the way of all petty dictators, he falls away into the dustbin of history. I know that even a successful war against Iraq will require a US occupation of undetermined length, at undetermined cost, with undetermined consequences. I know that an invasion of Iraq without a clear rationale and without strong international support will only fan the flames of the Middle East, and encourage the worst, rather than best, impulses of the Arab world, and strengthen the recruitment arm of Al Qaeda. I am not opposed to all wars. I'm opposed to dumb wars.

So for those of us who seek a more just and secure world for our children, let us send a clear message to the President today. You want a fight, President Bush? Let's finish the fight with Bin Laden and Al Qaeda, through effective, coordinated intelligence, and a shutting down of the financial networks that support terrorism, and a homeland security program that involves more than color-coded warnings. You want a fight, President Bush?

Let's fight to make sure that the UN inspectors can do their work, and that we vigorously enforce a non-proliferation treaty, and that former enemies and current allies like Russia safeguard and ultimately eliminate their stores of nuclear material, and that nations like Pakistan and India never use the terrible weapons already in their possession, and that the arms merchants in our own country stop feeding the countless wars that rage across the globe. You want a fight, President Bush?

Let's fight to make sure our so-called allies in the Middle East, the Saudis and the Egyptians, stop oppressing their own people, and suppressing dissent, and tolerating corruption and inequality, and mismanaging their economies so that their youth grow up without education, without prospects, without hope, the ready recruits of terrorist cells. You want a fight, President Bush? Let's fight to wean ourselves off Middle East oil, through an energy policy that doesn't simply serve the interests of Exxon and Mobil. Those are the battles that we need to fight. Those are the battles that we willingly join. The battles against ignorance and intolerance. Corruption and greed. Poverty and despair.

The consequences of war are dire, the sacrifices immeasurable. We may have occasion in our lifetime to once again rise up in defense of our freedom, and pay the wages of war. But we ought not -- we will not -- travel down that hellish path blindly. Nor should we allow those who would march off and pay the ultimate sacrifice, who would prove the full measure of devotion with their blood, to make such an awful sacrifice in vain.

my2hands · February 2008

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

Well of course, because they believe in the actions he has taken. I don't but that's not the point I was making, obviously. The point still stands that a leader needs to be more than a cheerleader, imo.

i would argue that he is more then a cheerleader...

kenny olav · February 2008

"A People for the American Way computer program would cast the same votes for cheaper."

that is hilarious! pretty good article all around. i mean, it's clearly written by a Hillary propagandist, but it's not entirely untrue. the Obama campaign is like a religious revival. so is Hillary's at times tho...

Abookamongstthemany · February 2008

my2hands wrote:

i would argue that he is more then a cheerleader...

Oh yeah, I can think of a few more words that describe him, as well. The point I was making was in referenece to this post: http://forums.pearljam.com/showpost.php?p=5210231&postcount=19

And out of curiousity, what is he to you exactly? I'm interested in hearing your opinion especially after the Zinn piece you posted yesterday.

my2hands · February 2008

Abookamongstthemany wrote:

And out of curiousity, what is he to you exactly? I'm interested in hearing your opinion especially after the Zinn piece you posted yesterday.

i havent forgot about you on this one... i just figure this question deserves an answer that takes a few minutes for my brain to hit the keyboard

Abookamongstthemany · February 2008

my2hands wrote:

i havent forgot about you on this one... i just figure this question deserves an answer that takes a few minutes for my brain to hit the keyboard

Take your time. I'm also curious if anyone had any thoughts on the links or points I brought up in this post:

Words really don't mean much without sincerity and 'real' action to back them. I haven't been too impressed with what I've seen from Obama... quite the opposite actually. I've noticed an inability to point out where he really stands on things. I've seen him completely dodge questions. I don't trust him to do what's right for the people where the war, the environment and healthcare are concerned, especially. He's not going to pull out of Iraq. Hillary, as yucky as she is, has pointed out some very important inconsistences and weak excuses in Obama's record concerning the war: http://www.nysun.com/article/69464 , he has been quoted as calling nuclear energy 'green' and what a shocker, that same industry is one of his top contributors. http://www.counterpunch.org/stclair07042007.html
His healthcare plan is half-assed and not designed to do what he sells it as. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/30/op...30krugman.html

Is this the best we can do? How is this so much better than any of the other halfassed Dems we've been complaining about for so long?

Urban Hiker · February 2008

I don't get the hype. If I were interviewing somebody for a job I would want solid answers on how they have handled particular situations in their previous experiences, not a vague sales pitch on how things could be handled however 'perfect' it may sound. Proof is in actions.

I was highly disappointed at the caucuses. First caucusing is bullshit, but that's for another thread. But, I couldn't believe how many people had Obama fever. When asked why they were voting for him, their answers were as ambiguous as Obama's speeches. It was all about feeling. I live in Seattle. These citizens are reputed as being highly educated, well read and very liberal. Unfortunately, we are also nonconfrontational, so when something seems to be going without argument, I guess we just follow along. I really expected more from my city.

It was like watching people being mesmerized by some feel good television commercial.

As much as I think Budweiser's commercials are funny and memorable, it's no excuse for me to drink shitty beer.

By now it's a moot point. But, I hope you all will be ready to cause a ruckus when your feel good cheerleader starts letting you down.

cornnifer · February 2008

Urban Hiker wrote:

I don't get the hype. If I were interviewing somebody for a job I would want solid answers on how they have handled particular situations in their previous experiences, not a vague sales pitch on how things could be handled however 'perfect' it may sound. Proof is in actions.

I was highly disappointed at the caucuses. First caucusing is bullshit, but that's for another thread. But, I couldn't believe how many people had Obama fever. When asked why they were voting for him, their answers were as ambiguous as Obama's speeches. It was all about feeling. I live in Seattle. These citizens are reputed as being highly educated, well read and very liberal. Unfortunately, we are also nonconfrontational, so when something seems to be going without argument, I guess we just follow along. I really expected more from my city.

It was like watching people being mesmerized by some feel good television commercial.

As much as I think Budweiser's commercials are funny and memorable, it's no excuse for me to drink shitty beer.

By now it's a moot point. But, I hope you all will be ready to cause a ruckus when your feel good cheerleader starts letting you down.

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/

next.

Urban Hiker · February 2008

cornnifer wrote:

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/

next.

I've read his page. I'm still not impressed and still don't understand the draw.

I wanted Kucinich, I've voted for Nader twice - I am aware that I am very much in the minority. Obama is not my guy and I think a lot of people are settling for him or banking on his potential to move people with his influential speeches.

With his speeches, I think people are hearing what they want to hear. If it does move people to action, I can only hope our country starts living greener and more peacefully and requires our policy makers to act accordingly. But, I wouldn't bet on that happening.

DriftingByTheStorm · February 2008

cornnifer wrote:

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/
next.

You know, you'll probably get a kick out of this, but i want to somewhat put my foot in my mouth with regards to Obama.

In fact, having read the above it is now 100% obvious to me why "the system" is so bloody desperate to get Hillary elected.

On what do i base the "desperate" claim? Well, when you have every hack neo-con in the book (Coulter, Limbaugh, Hannity and others) advocating Hillary over McCain, it seems pretty clear that "the establishment" is trying to push as many voters towards Hillary as possible to cover the gap that Obama has run away with in the Democratic party himself (in other words, they need Repubs to vote Hillary or they are fucked).

SO WHY AM I SAYING THIS?

Well, i want to first disclaim that i have serious (massive red flag) issues with his Healthcare and Education goals, but OTHER THAN THAT, his plan DOES read like an honest man's intentions.

Some of what he says is so clear & specific, that unless he is just truly full of shit (possible, but i think he believes what he says, just that he is naive on some issues) there is no way to misinterpret what he is saying. AND THAT SHIT HAS TO PISS THE ELITE OFF LIKE NO ONES BUSINESS! I mean, it is a few steps shy of Ron Paul, but ...

1. He mentions drasticaly reforming NAFTA, saying it was "oversold" to the US public, and that it isn't really good for the American worker. Very much true, and very much NOT what the establishment wants to hear.

2. He wants MASSIVE legislative reform that impededs on the ability of industry and the government to fuck over the people with lies and deception. The predatory credit card stuff. The subprime mortgage stuff. The porkbarel stuff. The Pay-Go budget stuff. There are a good few more (i think) but most of those ARE decent (hell, they are good) ideas. Maybe i don't agree that the government should be involved in them at all. But given the choice of things i'd not mind seeing the government fuck around with, those are good ones!

Anyhow.
I just wanted to throw that out there.
If anyone is like me, sitting there saying, "Yeah but this guy reads just like the rest of em." ... i'm here to say, having read he point-by-points on the issues ... assuming he means what he says, SOME of that stuff is so in the face of big business and the political machine that it does make me smile a bit.

THAT BEING SAID,
i just want to caution Obama supporters that the two things i mentioned before, his plan for Education and Healthcare SCARE THE SHIT OUT OF ME!

Like i said, i am really starting to believe that Obama is trying hard to be an honest man, and that he IS a man of "integrity" ... HOWEVER ...

I have very strong reservations about subsidized health care. To anyone who says other countries have it, and it is proven to work. No its not proven. Subidization IS proven to subvert the way markets work, and it has lots of negative implications, but the bottom line is YOU DONT SEE THOSE IMPLICATIONS because the UNPAID COSTS (in other words, you cant guarantee cheap healthcare coverage to someone who just flat out doesn't qualify for cheap health care coverage without passing the buck somewhere) end up coming out of the value of YOUR DOLLAR through inflation. That cost is hidden over time, and in budget deficits and the national debt. It is a cost that someday will cause the whole system to come crashing own. So don't give me this line that "Yeah Europe has it and they aren't broke." Okay. Give em 50 years.

Now.
EDUCATION.
This scares me WAY WORSE than healthcare.
Why?
Because all the shit i'm starting to discover about our education system, and all of what i just read about Obamas plan (again, i assume it is a well intentioned plan) ... but basicaly he wants to FUND THE EVILDOERS.

Yeah. He wants to throw massive amounts of money at a system that is designed to do little more than brainwash your children and turn them in to life-long workers with no critical thinking ability. Only the monkey-like mentality needed to do this or that all day long. And he wants to mandate indoctrination (ability\skill tests) of ALL teachers before they can teach. Look. I don't have space to go in to it all, but the system is BROKEN and heavily infiltrated by elitist assfuckers who want little more than to feed your child lies and dumb them down.

Unless Obama understands that and has some plan around it, this education plan will just massively accelerate their plans to wipe the "american intellect" off the face of the planet.

Case in point, his solution to No-Child-Left-Behind?
FUND IT.
??!!??

THE PROGRAM SUCKS!
Its bad policy!
It doesn't need funding.
In needs to be abolished!

So anyway.
Take it for what its worth.
(i know. i'm a kook. right?)

prism · February 2008

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

You know, you'll probably get a kick out of this, but i want to somewhat put my foot in my mouth with regards to Obama.

In fact, having read the above it is now 100% obvious to me why "the system" is so bloody desperate to get Hillary elected.

On what do i base the "desperate" claim? Well, when you have every hack neo-con in the book (Coulter, Limbaugh, Hannity and others) advocating Hillary over McCain, it seems pretty clear that "the establishment" is trying to push as many voters towards Hillary as possible to cover the gap that Obama has run away with in the Democratic party himself (in other words, they need Repubs to vote Hillary or they are fucked).

SO WHY AM I SAYING THIS?

Well, i want to first disclaim that i have serious (massive red flag) issues with his Healthcare and Education goals, but OTHER THAN THAT, his plan DOES read like an honest man's intentions.

Some of what he says is so clear & specific, that unless he is just truly full of shit (possible, but i think he believes what he says, just that he is naive on some issues) there is no way to misinterpret what he is saying. AND THAT SHIT HAS TO PISS THE ELITE OFF LIKE NO ONES BUSINESS! I mean, it is a few steps shy of Ron Paul, but ...

1. He mentions drasticaly reforming NAFTA, saying it was "oversold" to the US public, and that it isn't really good for the American worker. Very much true, and very much NOT what the establishment wants to hear.

2. He wants MASSIVE legislative reform that impededs on the ability of industry and the government to fuck over the people with lies and deception. The predatory credit card stuff. The subprime mortgage stuff. The porkbarel stuff. The Pay-Go budget stuff. There are a good few more (i think) but most of those ARE decent (hell, they are good) ideas. Maybe i don't agree that the government should be involved in them at all. But given the choice of things i'd not mind seeing the government fuck around with, those are good ones!

Anyhow.
I just wanted to throw that out there.
If anyone is like me, sitting there saying, "Yeah but this guy reads just like the rest of em." ... i'm here to say, having read he point-by-points on the issues ... assuming he means what he says, SOME of that stuff is so in the face of big business and the political machine that it does make me smile a bit.

THAT BEING SAID,
i just want to caution Obama supporters that the two things i mentioned before, his plan for Education and Healthcare SCARE THE SHIT OUT OF ME!

Like i said, i am really starting to believe that Obama is trying hard to be an honest man, and that he IS a man of "integrity" ... HOWEVER ...

I have very strong reservations about subsidized health care. To anyone who says other countries have it, and it is proven to work. No its not proven. Subidization IS proven to subvert the way markets work, and it has lots of negative implications, but the bottom line is YOU DONT SEE THOSE IMPLICATIONS because the UNPAID COSTS (in other words, you cant guarantee cheap healthcare coverage to someone who just flat out doesn't qualify for cheap health care coverage without passing the buck somewhere) end up coming out of the value of YOUR DOLLAR through inflation. That cost is hidden over time, and in budget deficits and the national debt. It is a cost that someday will cause the whole system to come crashing own. So don't give me this line that "Yeah Europe has it and they aren't broke." Okay. Give em 50 years.

Now.
EDUCATION.
This scares me WAY WORSE than healthcare.
Why?
Because all the shit i'm starting to discover about our education system, and all of what i just read about Obamas plan (again, i assume it is a well intentioned plan) ... but basicaly he wants to FUND THE EVILDOERS.

Yeah. He wants to throw massive amounts of money at a system that is designed to do little more than brainwash your children and turn them in to life-long workers with no critical thinking ability. Only the monkey-like mentality needed to do this or that all day long. And he wants to mandate indoctrination (ability\skill tests) of ALL teachers before they can teach. Look. I don't have space to go in to it all, but the system is BROKEN and heavily infiltrated by elitist assfuckers who want little more than to feed your child lies and dumb them down.

Unless Obama understands that and has some plan around it, this education plan will just massively accelerate their plans to wipe the "american intellect" off the face of the planet.

Case in point, his solution to No-Child-Left-Behind?
FUND IT.
??!!??

THE PROGRAM SUCKS!
Its bad policy!
It doesn't need funding.
In needs to be abolished!

So anyway.
Take it for what its worth.
(i know. i'm a kook. right?)

how does him saying that he wants to reform it mean that supports it as is and just wants to throw more money at it?

though i do agree that he should scrap the NCLB name and call his education reform plan something entirely different

Reform No Child Left Behind: Obama will reform NCLB, which starts by funding the law. Obama believes teachers should not be forced to spend the academic year preparing students to fill in bubbles on standardized tests. He will improve the assessments used to track student progress to measure readiness for college and the workplace and improve student learning in a timely, individualized manner. Obama will also improve NCLB's accountability system so that we are supporting schools that need improvement, rather than punishing them.

kenny olav · February 2008

slightofjeff wrote:

On the other hand, I guess that would make him like every other politician ... only better at it.

he's a very good one. he knows what politicians (and religious leaders) throughout history know all too well, and what science has recently proven: that human beings are hard-wired for optimism. so you just gotta know how to tingle that little optimism nerve, and you've got them hooked.

DriftingByTheStorm · February 2008

prism wrote:

how does him saying that he wants to reform it mean that supports it as is and just wants to throw more money at it?

though i do agree that he should scrap the NCLB name and call his education reform plan something entirely different

Because everyone of his plans for the current system does nothing more than throw more money at it.

"reforming the accountability process" is not going to help. The accountability process is THE PROBLEM. Reforming it ignores that it is the problem. Children and teachers don't need to jump through hoops! That is what you "teach" a kid if all you care about is ensuring he will make a good little monkey.

What kids need is FUNDAMENTALS.
Our school system has completely thrown those out.
Also, everywhere in that plan he calls for creating a new program ... that is INCREASING THE PROBLEM.

Child care program.
Afterschool program.
Summerschool program.
EARLY EDUCATION ! ! !

That reads to me as
indoctrinate & brainwash them when they aren't in school.
Indoctrinate and brainwash them after school.
Indoctrinate & brainwash them in the summertime.
and indoctrinate & brainwash them BEFORE they even get to school in the first 5 most formative years of their life!

THAT IS FUCKED UP!

WE DON'T NEED IT!
We need LESS LESS LESS LESS LESS Government in school. Not MORE MORE MORE MORE MORE.

I understand that everyone wants kids to get a good education, but people need to wake up and realize that the people that are the problem are controling the school system. They are the ones writing the books, training the teachers, and setting the standards. How come the cost of education keeps going up up and up, and the education level goes down down and down.

ITS NOT THE KIDS.
ITS NOT THE TEACHERS.
ITS THE SYSTEM!

It is deliberately RIGGED to make them dumb.
And the teachers are DELIBERATELY being mis-taught on how to educate!

The department of MISeducation needs to 100% SCRAPED.
And all educational initiatives MUST go back to the states. Idealy they should go 100% away from government, PERIOD, but we STILL have the problem that the assholes who want to rape your childs minds are the ones publishing the books, training the teachers, putting out all this bad information online, setting up foundations to miseducate the educators, etc.

But we CERTAINLY don't need more money for them right now! And DEFINATELY don't need to add to their already deliberately malicious policies (ie. No Child Left Behind).

Do yourself a favor, ANYTIME you hear a program being named by the government, just flip it.

No Child Left Behind?
EVERY Child Left Behind.

Department of Education?
Department of Stupification.

Free Healthcare?
Ungodly Expensive Hidden Cost Healthcare.

Federal Reserve?
Private Bank with NO Reserves.

Catch the drift?

Abookamongstthemany · February 2008

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

Because everyone of his plans for the current system does nothing more than throw more money at it.

"reforming the accountability process" is not going to help. The accountability process is THE PROBLEM. Reforming it ignores that it is the problem. Children and teachers don't need to jump through hoops! That is what you "teach" a kid if all you care about is ensuring he will make a good little monkey.

What kids need is FUNDAMENTALS.
Our school system has completely thrown those out.
Also, everywhere in that plan he calls for creating a new program ... that is INCREASING THE PROBLEM.

Child care program.
Afterschool program.
Summerschool program.
EARLY EDUCATION ! ! !

That reads to me as
indoctrinate & brainwash them when they aren't in school.
Indoctrinate and brainwash them after school.
Indoctrinate & brainwash them in the summertime.
and indoctrinate & brainwash them BEFORE they even get to school in the first 5 most formative years of their life!

THAT IS FUCKED UP!

WE DON'T NEED IT!
We need LESS LESS LESS LESS LESS Government in school. Not MORE MORE MORE MORE MORE.

I understand that everyone wants kids to get a good education, but people need to wake up and realize that the people that are the problem are controling the school system. They are the ones writing the books, training the teachers, and setting the standards. How come the cost of education keeps going up up and up, and the education level goes down down and down.

ITS NOT THE KIDS.
ITS NOT THE TEACHERS.
ITS THE SYSTEM!

It is deliberately RIGGED to make them dumb.
And the teachers are DELIBERATELY being mis-taught on how to educate!

The department of MISeducation needs to 100% SCRAPED.
And all educational initiatives MUST go back to the states. Idealy they should go 100% away from government, PERIOD, but we STILL have the problem that the assholes who want to rape your childs minds are the ones publishing the books, training the teachers, putting out all this bad information online, setting up foundations to miseducate the educators, etc.

But we CERTAINLY don't need more money for them right now! And DEFINATELY don't need to add to their already deliberately malicious policies (ie. No Child Left Behind).

Do yourself a favor, ANYTIME you hear a program being named by the government, just flip it.

No Child Left Behind?
EVERY Child Left Behind.

Department of Education?
Department of Stupification.

Free Healthcare?
Ungodly Expensive Hidden Cost Healthcare.

Federal Reserve?
Private Bank with NO Reserves.

Catch the drift?

I agree with much of your critique of the public school system.

prism · February 2008

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

Because everyone of his plans for the current system does nothing more than throw more money at it.

"reforming the accountability process" is not going to help. The accountability process is THE PROBLEM. Reforming it ignores that it is the problem. Children and teachers don't need to jump through hoops! That is what you "teach" a kid if all you care about is ensuring he will make a good little monkey.

What kids need is FUNDAMENTALS.
Our school system has completely thrown those out.
Also, everywhere in that plan he calls for creating a new program ... that is INCREASING THE PROBLEM.

Child care program.
Afterschool program.
Summerschool program.
EARLY EDUCATION ! ! !

That reads to me as
indoctrinate & brainwash them when they aren't in school.
Indoctrinate and brainwash them after school.
Indoctrinate & brainwash them in the summertime.
and indoctrinate & brainwash them BEFORE they even get to school in the first 5 most formative years of their life!

THAT IS FUCKED UP!

WE DON'T NEED IT!
We need LESS LESS LESS LESS LESS Government in school. Not MORE MORE MORE MORE MORE.

I understand that everyone wants kids to get a good education, but people need to wake up and realize that the people that are the problem are controling the school system. They are the ones writing the books, training the teachers, and setting the standards. How come the cost of education keeps going up up and up, and the education level goes down down and down.

ITS NOT THE KIDS.
ITS NOT THE TEACHERS.
ITS THE SYSTEM!

It is deliberately RIGGED to make them dumb.
And the teachers are DELIBERATELY being mis-taught on how to educate!

The department of MISeducation needs to 100% SCRAPED.
And all educational initiatives MUST go back to the states. Idealy they should go 100% away from government, PERIOD, but we STILL have the problem that the assholes who want to rape your childs minds are the ones publishing the books, training the teachers, putting out all this bad information online, setting up foundations to miseducate the educators, etc.

But we CERTAINLY don't need more money for them right now! And DEFINATELY don't need to add to their already deliberately malicious policies (ie. No Child Left Behind).

Do yourself a favor, ANYTIME you hear a program being named by the government, just flip it.

No Child Left Behind?
EVERY Child Left Behind.

Department of Education?
Department of Stupification.

Free Healthcare?
Ungodly Expensive Hidden Cost Healthcare.

Federal Reserve?
Private Bank with NO Reserves.

Catch the drift?

look, there's a lot of problems with the public school system. just one of the main problems with the current NCLB standardized tests is that they only teach english and math(as you call them the FUNDAMENTALS) and the way that it's set up kids are only taught to take the test. that's what is turning them into good little worker monkeys.
there's always been some type of assessment testing in school (even way back in the stone age when i was in school) how else can it be decided who gets into college or who gets the job?

but i guess you overlooked this part:
He will improve the assessments used to track student progress to measure readiness for college and the workplace and improve student learning in a timely, individualized manner.

so is it still your solution to totally scrap public education making it so that if parents want their child to educated they must pay for a private school education? what of those kids with parents that can't afford a private school education? shall the US bring back child labor??

cornnifer · February 2008

prism wrote:

how does him saying that he wants to reform it mean that supports it as is and just wants to throw more money at it?

though i do agree that he should scrap the NCLB name and call his education reform plan something entirely different

Reform No Child Left Behind: Obama will reform NCLB, which starts by funding the law. Obama believes teachers should not be forced to spend the academic year preparing students to fill in bubbles on standardized tests. He will improve the assessments used to track student progress to measure readiness for college and the workplace and improve student learning in a timely, individualized manner. Obama will also improve NCLB's accountability system so that we are supporting schools that need improvement, rather than punishing them.

Actually, speaking as an educator, the name is about the ONE good thing about the program.

You're right thouhgh. Obama recognizes that it is a horribly flawed, horribly implemented program with an admirable mission statement. He aims to completely retool and reform it, and part of that is through educational funding.

cornnifer · February 2008

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

Child care program.
Afterschool program.
Summerschool program.
EARLY EDUCATION ! ! !

That reads to me as
indoctrinate & brainwash them when they aren't in school.
Indoctrinate and brainwash them after school.
Indoctrinate & brainwash them in the summertime.
and indoctrinate & brainwash them BEFORE they even get to school in the first 5 most formative years of their life!

In all due respect, you really have absolutely no understanding of the issues surrounding education. A huge part of the problem is that kids are showing up for kindergarten already way behind. They are showing up completely unprepared to begin kindergarten. Early childhood education is essential to addressing the educational issues we face. Another problem is the facts that kids go home for the summer and lose much of what they learned during the school year. Kids leave school in the afternoon and go to an empty home. These are serious socio-cultural issues that have a huge impact on a child's academic success. Brainwashing?! Sorry, but this sounds like nothing more than one of your crazy conspiracy theories. Look, you obviously are one of those education is brainwashing guys and i won't try to influence you otherwise. i am interested though. How would YOU fix our educational issues. What would YOU see done?

DriftingByTheStorm · February 2008

cornnifer wrote:

Actually, speaking as an educator, the name is about the ONE good thing about the program. You're right thouhgh. Obama recognizes that it is a horribly flawed, horribly implemented program with an admirable mission statement. He aims to completely retool and reform it, and part of that is through educational funding.

Well his understanding of the flaws and implementation is going to have to run extremely deep if he plans on fixing it.

Look. I maintain it is a problem that can not be fixed. As long as your own money is being used against your best wishes by the government (or more appropriately, by the people abusing the government system) to reprogram your child how it sees fit, there is going to be a problem.

The problem is you have no choice.
Your child is YOURS. It should be your god given right to educate them as YOU see fit, not your government.

The only way around this is to 100% subvert government intervention by forcing them to allow substantial tax credits for individuals with children, and for individuals and businesses that would like to donate to scholarship grants for children of parents who are too poor to get a tax credit. I was for vouchers until i read this. Not the biggest CATO institute fan, but within the framework of "the system" they are okay, i guess.

Now, along with the tax credits to attend private school, you are going to need to keep the government from exerting ANY regulatory influence on private schools.

The school choice on how to educate MUST remain in the hand soley of the parents who FUND them, NOT a bureaucratic process totaly rampant with corruption and abuse.

Of course this will piss off parents of children already in private (especialy catholic) schools, because the initial wave of children under this system will come pouring in to these existing private schools before the infrastructure of private schools expands to meet the new demand.

And i'm sure someone is going to argue that it can't be afforded either. But i hardly buy that assumption, given that the cost of educating a child on the FREE market is, dollar for value recieved INFINITELY greater than that value per dollar that is achieved by public schooling!

Obama already admits he plans to dump countless amounts of money in to fix a problem that can't be fixed.

We need to be thinking about how to get kids OUT of that system ... with the eventual end goal of total elimination of the department of education, and a "re-privatization" initiative where public schools are gradualy auctioned off to the private schools or repurposed entirely.

I'm sorry.
I want to believe that the department of education can be fixed, but it is systemic and it STEMS from ONE root cause: your dollar is being spent by someone other than you on that education. PROBLEM. PERIOD.

Beware of Obama Comedown Syndrome

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