The Past Begins Right Now

angelica · September 2007

"If you insist on being moved, being determined by the past, that's your game, but the fact of the matter is it all starts right now...

but we like to establish a connectivity with the past because that gives other people the impression that we're sane". ~ Alan Watts

The inimitable Mr. Watts uses the analogy of a ship in water, leaving a wake behind it, showing where it's been. We look to the wake, or the past, to tell us where we have been. But as we go back into the past, into linear time and cause and effect, and with the use of all kinds of instruments, like math, science or what-have-you we try to understand what has happened. Eventually, we come to realize--wait a minute! The wake doesn't drive the ship!! Any more than the tail wags the dog!! We can study the wake all we want, it still doesn't explain the event of the ship moving in the ocean.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8734914658099018018

angelica · September 2007

Freedom from karma and cause and effect:

"...get into the more plausible and more reasonable habit of thought in terms of which you don't define yourself in terms of what you've done before, but in terms of what you're doing now. And that is liberation from the ridiculous situaiton of being a dog wagged by it's tail." ~ Alan Watts

gue_barium · September 2007

"The past is never dead, it is not even past."
Faulkner, I think.

Just thought I'd throw that one in there.

macgyver06 · September 2007

angelica wrote:

"If you insist on being moved, being determined by the past, that's your game, but the fact of the matter is it all starts right now...

but we like to establish a connectivity with the past because that gives other people the impression that we're sane". ~ Alan Watts

The inimitable Mr. Watts uses the analogy of a ship in water, leaving a wake behind it, showing where it's been. We look to the wake, or the past, to tell us where we have been. But as we go back into the past, into linear time and cause and effect, and with the use of all kinds of instruments, like math, science or what-have-you we try to understand what has happened. Eventually, we come to realize--wait a minute! The wake doesn't drive the ship!! Any more than the tail wags the dog!! We can study the wake all we want, it still doesn't explain the event of the ship moving in the ocean.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8734914658099018018

i see...so what drives the ship? and if you say motor im gonna be pissed

the wake we know will be there once we are 40 yards ahed of the course we are currently on?

seeems like watts is religious to me. maybe doesnt know it.

Lizard · September 2007

makes more sense to live in the present tense................

macgyver06 · September 2007

never think in the present tense though

Ahnimus · September 2007

The wake tells where the ship has been.

All too often people ignore the past and make incorrect predictions about the future. The cost is in suffering.

angelica · September 2007

macgyver06 wrote:

seeems like watts is religious to me. maybe doesnt know it.

What do you mean?

catefrances · September 2007

angelica wrote:

"If you insist on being moved, being determined by the past, that's your game, but the fact of the matter is it all starts right now...

but we like to establish a connectivity with the past because that gives other people the impression that we're sane". ~ Alan Watts

The inimitable Mr. Watts uses the analogy of a ship in water, leaving a wake behind it, showing where it's been. We look to the wake, or the past, to tell us where we have been. But as we go back into the past, into linear time and cause and effect, and with the use of all kinds of instruments, like math, science or what-have-you we try to understand what has happened. Eventually, we come to realize--wait a minute! The wake doesn't drive the ship!! Any more than the tail wags the dog!! We can study the wake all we want, it still doesn't explain the event of the ship moving in the ocean.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8734914658099018018

what the heck is this thread about?
oh thats horsehit angelica. i am where i am today because of the decisions i have made in my past. right here right now is where my future starts. the wake of a ship disappears once the water that has been displaced by the ship's passing has realigned into its former state. my past will always be my past and the basis for my present.
of course the wake doesn't drive the ship. but the decisions i make about my present based on my past do drive me into my future.

callen · September 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

The wake tells where the ship has been.

All too often people ignore the past and make incorrect predictions about the future. The cost is in suffering.

think maybe not "ignor" but "interpret" to fit their needs...

callen · September 2007

catefrances wrote:

what the heck is this thread about?
oh thats horsehit angelica. i am where i am today because of the decisions i have made in my past. right here right now is where my future starts. the wake of a ship disappears once the water that has been displaced by the ship's passing has realigned into its former state. my past will always be my past and the basis for my present.
of course the wake doesn't drive the ship. but the decisions i make about my present based on my past do drive me into my future.

you 2 crack me up.....

catefrances · September 2007

callen wrote:

you 2 crack me up.....

so long as someone's having fun.

angelica · September 2007

catefrances wrote:

what the heck is this thread about?
oh thats horsehit angelica. i am where i am today because of the decisions i have made in my past. right here right now is where my future starts. the wake of a ship disappears once the water that has been displaced by the ship's passing has realigned into its former state. my past will always be my past and the basis for my present.
of course the wake doesn't drive the ship. but the decisions i make about my present based on my past do drive me into my future.

Alan Watts says that it's more reasonable to define one's self by who we are right here and now. And he says that to define ourselves based on "the wake" of where we've been is like being a dog being wagged by it's tail. It sounds like you don't agree.

"...get into the more plausible and more reasonable habit of thought in terms of which you don't define yourself in terms of what you've done before, but in terms of what you're doing now. And that is liberation from the ridiculous situaiton of being a dog wagged by it's tail." ~ Alan Watts

The way I see it, people define themselves based on their each word, deed, vibe, attitude, etc. right here and now in the present, as is. They are defined by their current behaviours, as they act them out in each moment. That is who they are. I see that people define themselves by their choices at all times, from moment to moment. Even Ahnimus knows that we act, and then after the fact, we give meaning to what we've done. The meaning we give it did not create our actions. It was added after. We are defined by our current shape, presence, actions, words, etc. Again, the "reasons" that we ascribe to our behaviours are like a wake that come after the fact, and yet the reasons are not who we are. The wake is very separate from the ship, even though it may indicate something about the ship.

angelica · September 2007

"Let's ask 'how big is the sun?' Are we going to define the sun as limited by the extent of its fire? That's one possible definition. But we could equally well define the sphere of the sun by the extent of its heat. We could also define the sphere of the sun by the extent of its light. And each of these would be reasonable choices, except that it's rather difficult to keep track of the extent of its light because we're inside of it. And therefore, we have arbitrarily agreed to define the sun by the limit of its visible fire. But you will see by these analogies that how big a thing is, or how long an event is, is simply a matter of definition.

Now therefore, when by simple definition, for purposes of discussion, we have divided events into certain periods, we'll say "the first World War began in 1914 and it ended in 1918". Now actually all these things that led up to the first World War started long before 1914 and the repercussions of that war have continued long beyond 1918. How are we to distinguish an event from it's repercussions?

So you will see that becuse we have divided events from one another in this arbitrary way, we do that and then we sort of forget we did it. And then we have a puzzle. How do events lead to each other? Because you see, in reality, there are no separate events. Life moves along like water. And it's all connected as the source of the river is connected to the mouth and to the ocean. And all the events and things going on are like whirlpools in the stream because you go there today and you see a whirlpool; you go there tomorrow and you see a whirlpool. But it isn't the same whirlpool because all the water is changing every second." ~ Alan Watts

macgyver06 · September 2007

angelica wrote:

What do you mean?

i mean... rather than learning lessons he suggests its not necessary...that we should be faithful and hope for the future. Rather than understanding our pasts, our struggles, our problems... applying them in the present.. and taking our future the best we can.

in otherwords he hints at doing nothing

angelica · September 2007

macgyver06 wrote:

i mean... rather than learning lessons he suggests its not necessary...that we should be faithful and hope for the future. Rather than understanding our pasts, our struggles, our problems... applying them in the present.. and taking our future the best we can.

in otherwords he hints at doing nothing

How specifically does he "suggest" that we not learn lessons, but instead rely on "hope"? How, specifically, does he hint at doing nothing?

catefrances · September 2007

angelica wrote:

Alan Watts says that it's more reasonable to define one's self by who we are right here and now. And he says that to define ourselves based on "the wake" of where we've been is like being a dog being wagged by it's tail. It sounds like you don't agree.

"...get into the more plausible and more reasonable habit of thought in terms of which you don't define yourself in terms of what you've done before, but in terms of what you're doing now. And that is liberation from the ridiculous situaiton of being a dog wagged by it's tail." ~ Alan Watts

The way I see it, people define themselves based on their each word, deed, vibe, attitude, etc. right here and now in the present, as is. They are defined by their current behaviours, as they act them out in each moment. That is who they are. I see that people define themselves by their choices at all times, from moment to moment. Even Ahnimus knows that we act, and then after the fact, we give meaning to what we've done. The meaning we give it did not create our actions. It was added after. We are defined by our current shape, presence, actions, words, etc. Again, the "reasons" that we ascribe to our behaviours are like a wake that come after the fact, and yet the reasons are not who we are. The wake is very separate from the ship, even though it may indicate something about the ship.

well i tend to agree with that part angelica. HOW we choose to react can define us. but only to a certain extent. but still that reaction is based on our past. tis also based on other factors as well. even WHEN those decisions are made can make a difference. given time to think about a situation one can come up with a different thought or action.

angelica · September 2007

catefrances wrote:

well i tend to agree with that part angelica. HOW we choose to react can define us. but only to a certain extent. but still that reaction is based on our past.

The way I see it, that reaction is based on many variables in the present, which includes our present brain wiring, our present memory, our present conditioning and how we use each variable in the present. And when that brain wiring or conditioning was developing, it was always developing in the present moment at each stage of the game.

And as Alan Watts says, when (and for the skeptics, "if") the big bang took place, it took place in the present.

There isn't a circumstance when the past did not begin in the present moment.

Unless anyone would like to differ on that.

angelica · September 2007

"To be identified with your mind is to be trapped in time: the compulsion to live almost exclusively through memory and anticipation"

"Unease, anxiety, tension, stress, worry — all forms of fear — are cause by too much future, and not enough presence. Guilt, regret, resentment, grievances, sadness, bitterness, and all forms of nonforgiveness are caused by too much past, and not enough presence"

"To be free of time is to be free of the psychological need of past for your identity and future for your fulfillment"

"You cannot find yourself by going into the past. You can find yourself by coming into the present"

"It wasn't through the mind, through thinking, that the miracle that is life on earth or your body were created and are being sustained"

~ Eckhart Tolle

angelica · September 2007

"The quality of your consciousness at this moment is what shapes the future — which, of course, can only be experienced as the Now"

"When you are present, you can allow the mind to be as it is without getting entangled in it. The mind in itself is a wonderful tool. Dysfunction sets in when you seek your self in it and mistake it for who you are"

"Life is now. There was never a time when your life was not now, nor will there ever be"

"Wherever you are, be there totally. If you find your here and now intolerable and it makes you unhappy, you have three options: remove yourself from the situation, change it, or accept it totally"

"The most common ego identifications have to do with possessions, the work you do, social status and recognition, knowledge and education, physical appearance, special abilities, relationships, person and family history, belief systems, and often also political, nationalistic, racial, religious, and other collective identifications. None of these is you."

~ Eckhart Tolle

Ahnimus · September 2007

This is like nails on a chalkboard for me. The language is so amateur and the "truths" so irrational.

The Past Begins Right Now

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