The Past Begins Right Now

angelica

"If you insist on being moved, being determined by the past, that's your game, but the fact of the matter is it all starts right now...

but we like to establish a connectivity with the past because that gives other people the impression that we're sane". ~ Alan Watts




The inimitable Mr. Watts uses the analogy of a ship in water, leaving a wake behind it, showing where it's been. We look to the wake, or the past, to tell us where we have been. But as we go back into the past, into linear time and cause and effect, and with the use of all kinds of instruments, like math, science or what-have-you we try to understand what has happened. Eventually, we come to realize--wait a minute! The wake doesn't drive the ship!! Any more than the tail wags the dog!! We can study the wake all we want, it still doesn't explain the event of the ship moving in the ocean.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8734914658099018018

angelica

Freedom from karma and cause and effect:

"...get into the more plausible and more reasonable habit of thought in terms of which you don't define yourself in terms of what you've done before, but in terms of what you're doing now. And that is liberation from the ridiculous situaiton of being a dog wagged by it's tail." ~ Alan Watts

gue_barium

"The past is never dead, it is not even past."
Faulkner, I think.

Just thought I'd throw that one in there.

macgyver06

angelica wrote:

"If you insist on being moved, being determined by the past, that's your game, but the fact of the matter is it all starts right now...

but we like to establish a connectivity with the past because that gives other people the impression that we're sane". ~ Alan Watts




The inimitable Mr. Watts uses the analogy of a ship in water, leaving a wake behind it, showing where it's been. We look to the wake, or the past, to tell us where we have been. But as we go back into the past, into linear time and cause and effect, and with the use of all kinds of instruments, like math, science or what-have-you we try to understand what has happened. Eventually, we come to realize--wait a minute! The wake doesn't drive the ship!! Any more than the tail wags the dog!! We can study the wake all we want, it still doesn't explain the event of the ship moving in the ocean.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8734914658099018018

i see...so what drives the ship? and if you say motor im gonna be pissed


the wake we know will be there once we are 40 yards ahed of the course we are currently on?


seeems like watts is religious to me. maybe doesnt know it.

Lizard

makes more sense to live in the present tense................

macgyver06

never think in the present tense though

Ahnimus

The wake tells where the ship has been.

All too often people ignore the past and make incorrect predictions about the future. The cost is in suffering.

angelica

macgyver06 wrote:

seeems like watts is religious to me. maybe doesnt know it.

What do you mean?

catefrances

angelica wrote:

"If you insist on being moved, being determined by the past, that's your game, but the fact of the matter is it all starts right now...

but we like to establish a connectivity with the past because that gives other people the impression that we're sane". ~ Alan Watts




The inimitable Mr. Watts uses the analogy of a ship in water, leaving a wake behind it, showing where it's been. We look to the wake, or the past, to tell us where we have been. But as we go back into the past, into linear time and cause and effect, and with the use of all kinds of instruments, like math, science or what-have-you we try to understand what has happened. Eventually, we come to realize--wait a minute! The wake doesn't drive the ship!! Any more than the tail wags the dog!! We can study the wake all we want, it still doesn't explain the event of the ship moving in the ocean.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8734914658099018018

what the heck is this thread about?
oh thats horsehit angelica. i am where i am today because of the decisions i have made in my past. right here right now is where my future starts. the wake of a ship disappears once the water that has been displaced by the ship's passing has realigned into its former state. my past will always be my past and the basis for my present.
of course the wake doesn't drive the ship. but the decisions i make about my present based on my past do drive me into my future.

callen

Ahnimus wrote:

The wake tells where the ship has been.

All too often people ignore the past and make incorrect predictions about the future. The cost is in suffering.

think maybe not "ignor" but "interpret" to fit their needs...

callen

catefrances wrote:

what the heck is this thread about?
oh thats horsehit angelica. i am where i am today because of the decisions i have made in my past. right here right now is where my future starts. the wake of a ship disappears once the water that has been displaced by the ship's passing has realigned into its former state. my past will always be my past and the basis for my present.
of course the wake doesn't drive the ship. but the decisions i make about my present based on my past do drive me into my future.

you 2 crack me up.....

catefrances

callen wrote:

you 2 crack me up.....

so long as someone's having fun.

angelica

catefrances wrote:

what the heck is this thread about?
oh thats horsehit angelica. i am where i am today because of the decisions i have made in my past. right here right now is where my future starts. the wake of a ship disappears once the water that has been displaced by the ship's passing has realigned into its former state. my past will always be my past and the basis for my present.
of course the wake doesn't drive the ship. but the decisions i make about my present based on my past do drive me into my future.

Alan Watts says that it's more reasonable to define one's self by who we are right here and now. And he says that to define ourselves based on "the wake" of where we've been is like being a dog being wagged by it's tail. It sounds like you don't agree.

"...get into the more plausible and more reasonable habit of thought in terms of which you don't define yourself in terms of what you've done before, but in terms of what you're doing now. And that is liberation from the ridiculous situaiton of being a dog wagged by it's tail." ~ Alan Watts

The way I see it, people define themselves based on their each word, deed, vibe, attitude, etc. right here and now in the present, as is. They are defined by their current behaviours, as they act them out in each moment. That is who they are. I see that people define themselves by their choices at all times, from moment to moment. Even Ahnimus knows that we act, and then after the fact, we give meaning to what we've done. The meaning we give it did not create our actions. It was added after. We are defined by our current shape, presence, actions, words, etc. Again, the "reasons" that we ascribe to our behaviours are like a wake that come after the fact, and yet the reasons are not who we are. The wake is very separate from the ship, even though it may indicate something about the ship.

angelica

"Let's ask 'how big is the sun?' Are we going to define the sun as limited by the extent of its fire? That's one possible definition. But we could equally well define the sphere of the sun by the extent of its heat. We could also define the sphere of the sun by the extent of its light. And each of these would be reasonable choices, except that it's rather difficult to keep track of the extent of its light because we're inside of it. And therefore, we have arbitrarily agreed to define the sun by the limit of its visible fire. But you will see by these analogies that how big a thing is, or how long an event is, is simply a matter of definition.

Now therefore, when by simple definition, for purposes of discussion, we have divided events into certain periods, we'll say "the first World War began in 1914 and it ended in 1918". Now actually all these things that led up to the first World War started long before 1914 and the repercussions of that war have continued long beyond 1918. How are we to distinguish an event from it's repercussions?

So you will see that becuse we have divided events from one another in this arbitrary way, we do that and then we sort of forget we did it. And then we have a puzzle. How do events lead to each other? Because you see, in reality, there are no separate events. Life moves along like water. And it's all connected as the source of the river is connected to the mouth and to the ocean. And all the events and things going on are like whirlpools in the stream because you go there today and you see a whirlpool; you go there tomorrow and you see a whirlpool. But it isn't the same whirlpool because all the water is changing every second." ~ Alan Watts

macgyver06

angelica wrote:

What do you mean?

i mean... rather than learning lessons he suggests its not necessary...that we should be faithful and hope for the future. Rather than understanding our pasts, our struggles, our problems... applying them in the present.. and taking our future the best we can.

in otherwords he hints at doing nothing

angelica

macgyver06 wrote:

i mean... rather than learning lessons he suggests its not necessary...that we should be faithful and hope for the future. Rather than understanding our pasts, our struggles, our problems... applying them in the present.. and taking our future the best we can.

in otherwords he hints at doing nothing

How specifically does he "suggest" that we not learn lessons, but instead rely on "hope"? How, specifically, does he hint at doing nothing?

catefrances

angelica wrote:

Alan Watts says that it's more reasonable to define one's self by who we are right here and now. And he says that to define ourselves based on "the wake" of where we've been is like being a dog being wagged by it's tail. It sounds like you don't agree.

"...get into the more plausible and more reasonable habit of thought in terms of which you don't define yourself in terms of what you've done before, but in terms of what you're doing now. And that is liberation from the ridiculous situaiton of being a dog wagged by it's tail." ~ Alan Watts

The way I see it, people define themselves based on their each word, deed, vibe, attitude, etc. right here and now in the present, as is. They are defined by their current behaviours, as they act them out in each moment. That is who they are. I see that people define themselves by their choices at all times, from moment to moment. Even Ahnimus knows that we act, and then after the fact, we give meaning to what we've done. The meaning we give it did not create our actions. It was added after. We are defined by our current shape, presence, actions, words, etc. Again, the "reasons" that we ascribe to our behaviours are like a wake that come after the fact, and yet the reasons are not who we are. The wake is very separate from the ship, even though it may indicate something about the ship.

well i tend to agree with that part angelica. HOW we choose to react can define us. but only to a certain extent. but still that reaction is based on our past. tis also based on other factors as well. even WHEN those decisions are made can make a difference. given time to think about a situation one can come up with a different thought or action.

angelica

catefrances wrote:

well i tend to agree with that part angelica. HOW we choose to react can define us. but only to a certain extent. but still that reaction is based on our past.

The way I see it, that reaction is based on many variables in the present, which includes our present brain wiring, our present memory, our present conditioning and how we use each variable in the present. And when that brain wiring or conditioning was developing, it was always developing in the present moment at each stage of the game.

And as Alan Watts says, when (and for the skeptics, "if") the big bang took place, it took place in the present.

There isn't a circumstance when the past did not begin in the present moment.

Unless anyone would like to differ on that.

angelica

"To be identified with your mind is to be trapped in time: the compulsion to live almost exclusively through memory and anticipation"


"Unease, anxiety, tension, stress, worry — all forms of fear — are cause by too much future, and not enough presence. Guilt, regret, resentment, grievances, sadness, bitterness, and all forms of nonforgiveness are caused by too much past, and not enough presence"


"To be free of time is to be free of the psychological need of past for your identity and future for your fulfillment"


"You cannot find yourself by going into the past. You can find yourself by coming into the present"


"It wasn't through the mind, through thinking, that the miracle that is life on earth or your body were created and are being sustained"


~ Eckhart Tolle

angelica

"The quality of your consciousness at this moment is what shapes the future — which, of course, can only be experienced as the Now"



"When you are present, you can allow the mind to be as it is without getting entangled in it. The mind in itself is a wonderful tool. Dysfunction sets in when you seek your self in it and mistake it for who you are"


"Life is now. There was never a time when your life was not now, nor will there ever be"


"Wherever you are, be there totally. If you find your here and now intolerable and it makes you unhappy, you have three options: remove yourself from the situation, change it, or accept it totally"


"The most common ego identifications have to do with possessions, the work you do, social status and recognition, knowledge and education, physical appearance, special abilities, relationships, person and family history, belief systems, and often also political, nationalistic, racial, religious, and other collective identifications. None of these is you."


~ Eckhart Tolle

Ahnimus

This is like nails on a chalkboard for me. The language is so amateur and the "truths" so irrational.

angelica

Ahnimus wrote:

This is like nails on a chalkboard for me.

Kinda like hippiemom and free-will??

angelica

"Life can be found only in the present moment. The past is gone, the future is not yet here, and if we do not go back to ourselves in the present moment, we cannot be in touch with life." ~ Thich Nhat Hanh


"There is no distance on this earth as far away as yesterday". ~Robert Nathan


"Realize that now, in this moment of time, you are creating. You are creating your next moment. That is what's real." ~ Sara Paddison


"Eternity is not something that begins after you are dead. It is going on all the time. We are in it now." ~ Charlotte Perkins Gilman


"The foolish man seeks happiness in the distance, the wise grows it under his feet." ~ James Oppenheim


"Love the moment. Flowers grow out of dark moments. Therefore, each moment is vital. It affects the whole. Life is a succession of such moments and to live each, is to succeed." ~ Corita Kent


"Now is the only time. How we relate to it creates the future. In other words, if we're going to be more cheerful in the future, it's because of our aspiration and exertion to be cheerful in the present. What we do accumulates; the future is the result of what we do right now." ~ Pema Chodron

Ahnimus

angelica wrote:

Kinda like hippiemom and free-will??

I don't remember that convo.

prism

catefrances wrote:

well i tend to agree with that part angelica. HOW we choose to react can define us. but only to a certain extent. but still that reaction is based on our past. tis also based on other factors as well. even WHEN those decisions are made can make a difference. given time to think about a situation one can come up with a different thought or action.

a therapist once told me that based on my past childhood experiances that i should've wound up being a prostitute or a junkie or at the very least an alcoholic. but obviously I didn't react by taking any of those paths, cause like you said I was able to think and reason so that I came up with different thoughs and actions. so while my past has somewhat affected my decisions and can't be erased....I don't let it define me

Ahnimus

prism wrote:

a therapist once told me that based on my past childhood experiances that i should've wound up being a prostitute or a junkie or at the very least an alcoholic. but obviously I didn't react by taking any of those paths, cause like you said I was able to think and reason so that I came up with different thoughs and actions. so while my past has somewhat affected my decisions and can't be erased....I don't let it define me

Therapists have a knack for totally oversimplifying these things. As a matter of fact, so does Angelica.

Take for example this one little process that occurs in the brain millions of times a day.

In the neuron's resting state, both the sodium (Na+) and potassium (K+) channels are closed, and the outside of the cell membrane is positively charged with respect to the inside. Hence there is a voltage drop across the membrane. If the membrane is depolarized, sodium ions enter the cell until the cell's polarity is reversed; that is, the inside of the cell is positively charged with respect to the outside. In the repolarization phase, the potassium channel then opens to allow eflux of potasium ions, the sodium gate closes, and sodium ions are actively pumped out of the cell. All of these activities help bring the membrane back to its resting potential. Because the potassium gate does not close as soon as the resting potential is reached, the voltage drop across the membrane briefly drops a little below the resting voltage. Equilibrium is reached once the resting potential is restored.Based on Campbell 1996 (Brain-Wise; Patricia S Churcland | Pg. 15)

This has something to do with your decisions. But explaining that is even more complicated. Anyone who thinks decisions happen because of a simple process is completely ignorant.

catefrances

prism wrote:

a therapist once told me that based on my past childhood experiances that i should've wound up being a prostitute or a junkie or at the very least an alcoholic. but obviously I didn't react by taking any of those paths, cause like you said I was able to think and reason so that I came up with different thoughs and actions. so while my past has somewhat affected my decisions and can't be erased....I don't let it define me

i wonder why your therapist told you that.

perhaps we're defined by the decisions we DON'T make and the paths we DON'T take.

prism

Ahnimus wrote:

Therapists have a knack for totally oversimplifying these things. As a matter of fact, so does Angelica.

Take for example this one little process that occurs in the brain millions of times a day.

In the neuron's resting state, both the sodium (Na+) and potassium (K+) channels are closed, and the outside of the cell membrane is positively charged with respect to the inside. Hence there is a voltage drop across the membrane. If the membrane is depolarized, sodium ions enter the cell until the cell's polarity is reversed; that is, the inside of the cell is positively charged with respect to the outside. In the repolarization phase, the potassium channel then opens to allow eflux of potasium ions, the sodium gate closes, and sodium ions are actively pumped out of the cell. All of these activities help bring the membrane back to its resting potential. Because the potassium gate does not close as soon as the resting potential is reached, the voltage drop across the membrane briefly drops a little below the resting voltage. Equilibrium is reached once the resting potential is restored.Based on Campbell 1996 (Brain-Wise; Patricia S Churcland | Pg. 15)

This has something to do with your decisions. But explaining that is even more complicated. Anyone who thinks decisions happen because of a simple process is completely ignorant.

I never claimed that my decisions were made only because of a simple process. the past does have something (though definately not everything) to do with the process of the decisions that I've come to. that doesn't change the fact that my past doesn't define me

prism

catefrances wrote:

i wonder why your therapist told you that.

perhaps we're defined by the decisions we DON'T make and the paths we DON'T take.

you may be right...you make a good point

catefrances

prism wrote:

you may be right...you make a good point

turns out i got a lot of time to think about crap like this these days. i'm generally one for stepping off the cliff and seeing where i end up. turns out when it comes to free will and getting what we want, if someone else is involved in the equation then we have none. of course a little patience never goes astray, so i'm told.