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DinghyDog · January 2007

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PaperPlates · January 2007

why I'm for it.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/05/13/ross.execution/index.html

http://www.trulyunusual.com/wards/showthread.php?t=5890

http://www.bbc.co.uk/crime/caseclosed/gacy.shtml

http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2003/s984061.htm

Collin · January 2007

PaperPlates wrote:

why I'm for it.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/05/13/ross.execution/index.html

http://www.trulyunusual.com/wards/showthread.php?t=5890

http://www.bbc.co.uk/crime/caseclosed/gacy.shtml

http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2003/s984061.htm

What's the point?

miller8966 · January 2007

Collin wrote:

What's the point?

I want to see a murderer suffer the pain of death.

Collin · January 2007

miller8966 wrote:

I want to see a murderer suffer the pain of death.

I thought you were a Christian?

ClimberInOz · January 2007

PaperPlates wrote:

why I'm for it.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/05/13/ross.execution/index.html

http://www.trulyunusual.com/wards/showthread.php?t=5890

http://www.bbc.co.uk/crime/caseclosed/gacy.shtml

http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2003/s984061.htm

The death penalty will not stop dispicable acts such as those in the links you posted.

The deterrent effect of the death penalty is overstated (See a review of the deterrent hypotheses by Peterson and Bailey on page 173 of the book: America's Experiment with Capital Punishment.)

So if it is not a successful deterrent it is a matter of weighing up the risk of executing innocents vs its retributive function. For me, the small risk of executing an innocent person outweighs the small benifit to the victim's family and friends in seeing the criminal executed.

So that is why I am against the death penalty.

miller8966 · January 2007

ClimberInOz wrote:

The death penalty will not stop dispicable acts such as those in the links you posted.

.

EIther will jail

RainDog · January 2007

miller8966 wrote:

EIther will jail

A jail sentence can be reversed. You can't bring an innocent man back to life.

But, hey, at least we get our bloody revenge - even if it's not the right person, it's still fun.

Go Rome!!

miller8966 · January 2007

RainDog wrote:

A jail sentence can be reversed. You can't bring an innocent man back to life.

But, hey, at least we get our bloody revenge - even if it's not the right person, it's still fun.

Go Rome!!

Everything has a flaw..abortions have flaws,should we outlaw them?

lalalalaaaaaaaa · January 2007

ClimberInOz wrote:

The death penalty will not stop dispicable acts such as those in the links you posted.

The deterrent effect of the death penalty is overstated (See a review of the deterrent hypotheses by Peterson and Bailey on page 173 of the book: America's Experiment with Capital Punishment.)

So if it is not a successful deterrent it is a matter of weighing up the risk of executing innocents vs its retributive function. For me, the small risk of executing an innocent person outweighs the small benifit to the victim's family and friends in seeing the criminal executed.

So that is why I am against the death penalty.

I'm also against the death penalty, but I think your reasons for being against it are wrong. I already posted this in a previous thread, but here's why I think weighing the pros & cons like you are is the wrong way to think about capital punishment:

I think people are really confused about their feelings on capital punishment. The reason for this, I think, is because they get lost in details that are convincing of the pro and con stances. 1 out of 7 (or so) death row inmates have been aquitted or had charges against them dropped. That doesn't mean all of them are innocent. No one can prove all the people being put to death are guilty...and no one can prove all the people being aquitted are innocent. And no one can prove that all those people aquitted of murder on the first trial are actually innocent. And so on.

The main question is "is the death penalty a moral and just punishment in some cases?" If the answer is no, then there's nothing more to discuss. But if the answer is yes, then you have to ask how can we decrease the human error factor in these cases? The answer cannot be "we abolish the death penalty".

The question is not "how can we prove this and that?", it becomes a question of "how do we deal with human error in the justice system?" There's no way to eliminate it, but you can't just say "well then forget the whole system all together". You can't say "we can't know for sure this guy raped this woman, so we can't send him to jail". That's not fair to the victim. We can't define laws by thinking in absolutes like that. We have to come up with a way to make things as fair as possible for both the victim and the accused. That's what the appeals process is for, and generally, it works well. It works in favor of the guilty and the innocent, but statistically speaking, it is highly unlikely that you will be convicted of a crime you didn't commit, and even more unlikely that you'll be executed.

Having said that, I am against the death penalty because I think it's immoral. If there is a non-violent way to bring justice, I'll always favor that over a violent method.

RainDog · January 2007

miller8966 wrote:

Everything has a flaw..abortions have flaws,should we outlaw them?

Automobiles have flaws, should we outlaw them? Hyperbolic dodge, man.

But I'm glad you're o.k., hell, rather flippant, about outright murder of an innocent so long as you get to mentally masturbate to the life bleeding out of someone's body.

eobo · January 2007

miller8966 wrote:

Everything has a flaw..abortions have flaws,should we outlaw them?

coming from a country where abortions are outlawed, i don't see the huge problem. although i am pro choice, i am also pro contraception in a big big way. not that that's a point.

killing someone because they kill can be seen through both ways. two wrongs don't make a right and other things. morally, there is no right answer because so many people will have so many different opinions. tbh, if i works, stick with it. murder for murder seems quite archaic, but if you torture someone for years instead, is that better or worse?

plus, if your a christian, you believe they'll go to hell anyways.

RainDog · January 2007

Saturnal wrote:

I'm also against the death penalty, but I think your reasons for being against it are wrong. I already posted this in a previous thread, but here's why I think weighing the pros & cons like you are is the wrong way to think about capital punishment:

I think people are really confused about their feelings on capital punishment. The reason for this, I think, is because they get lost in details that are convincing of the pro and con stances. 1 out of 7 (or so) death row inmates have been aquitted or had charges against them dropped. That doesn't mean all of them are innocent. No one can prove all the people being put to death are guilty...and no one can prove all the people being aquitted are innocent. And no one can prove that all those people aquitted of murder on the first trial are actually innocent. And so on.

The main question is "is the death penalty a moral and just punishment in some cases?" If the answer is no, then there's nothing more to discuss. But if the answer is yes, then you have to ask how can we decrease the human error factor in these cases? The answer cannot be "we abolish the death penalty".

The question is not "how can we prove this and that?", it becomes a question of "how do we deal with human error in the justice system?" There's no way to eliminate it, but you can't just say "well then forget the whole system all together". You can't say "we can't know for sure this guy raped this woman, so we can't send him to jail". That's not fair to the victim. We can't define laws by thinking in absolutes like that. We have to come up with a way to make things as fair as possible for both the victim and the accused. That's what the appeals process is for, and generally, it works well. It works in favor of the guilty and the innocent, but statistically speaking, it is highly unlikely that you will be convicted of a crime you didn't commit, and even more unlikely that you'll be executed.

Having said that, I am against the death penalty because I think it's immoral. If there is a non-violent way to bring justice, I'll always favor that over a violent method.

Not allowing the victim or victim's family to take the law into their own hands and kill the offender themselves isn't exactly fair either.

Yes, we should do away with the death penalty because it's immoral.
But we should also do away with it because even one State sanctioned murder of an innocent person is too many.

catefrances · January 2007

miller8966 wrote:

Everything has a flaw..abortions have flaws,should we outlaw them?

abortions get rid of unwanted pregnancies. where's the flaw?

norm · January 2007

miller8966 wrote:

I want to see a murderer suffer the pain of death.

Yeah but it really isn't that much pain. I'd prefer to have them ass raped in prison for the rest of their lives.

Collin · January 2007

cutback wrote:

Yeah but it really isn't that much pain. I'd prefer to have them ass raped in prison for the rest of their lives.

That's just sick, dude.

lalalalaaaaaaaa · January 2007

RainDog wrote:

Not allowing the victim or victim's family to take the law into their own hands and kill the offender themselves isn't exactly fair either.

Yes, we should do away with the death penalty because it's immoral.
But we should also do away with it because even one State sanctioned murder of an innocent person is too many.

How is not allowing the victim or victim's family to take the law into their own hands and kill the offender themselves unfair? I'm not sure what your point is there.

I still think we should be defining punishment based on what is moral and just first, then worry about human error in the justice system.

SundaySilence · January 2007

Collin wrote:

I thought you were a Christian?

The death penalty gave birth to christianity.

norm · January 2007

Collin wrote:

That's just sick, dude.

Should he get free cable? We know what goes on in prison and frankly death is an easy way out. We know prison is no longer for reform - especially if it's a life sentence. And yes I was a little harsh, but . . .

miller8966 · January 2007

[quote="RainDog
Yes, we should do away with the death penalty because it's immoral.
But we should also do away with it because even one State sanctioned murder of an innocent person is too many.[/quote"]

Its not immoral at all.

RainDog · January 2007

Saturnal wrote:

How is not allowing the victim or victim's family to take the law into their own hands and kill the offender themselves unfair? I'm not sure what your point is there.

I know it wasn't exactly the example you used, but when you wrote "it's not fair to the victim" I also took it to mean that if we don't allow for the death penalty, it's not fair to those who want the person to die - many of whom would love to execute the individual themselves.

Saturnal wrote:

I still think we should be defining punishment based on what is moral and just first, then worry about human error in the justice system.

I agree. However, by everyone's standards it is immoral and unjust to execute an innocent person - and it's a punishment that can't be reversed. Jailing an innocent person, while certainly not good, can be. So, if you ask me, I think it's a perfectly good example of why it's immoral and unjust - it just so happens that it's also related to a flaw in the system.

Now, if you ask me, I say it's immoral and unjust all the time. Now I think we need to convince other people - and if they come to the same conclusion for different reasons, I'm O.K. with that.

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