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24 dead american soldiers
musicismylife78
Posts: 6,116
24 died yesterday. The single bloodiest day of the entire iraq war.
Bring them home...NOW!
Bring them home...NOW!
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Pretty sick stuff. Why do some people continue to believe this war is just and moral?
all for lies.
disgusting.
And if we bring them home now and 100,000 Iraqis die in the next 6 months of chaos, will you sleep better at night?
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Why do some people value the lives of Americans over the lives of people from other countries?
(and bear in mind those Americans volunteered to be there)
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
The line about "if we pull out now, Iraq will descend into chaos and Iraqis will die" is a cop out, and an excuse for perpetual war. It was the excuse used for prolonging Vietnam.
Iraqis dont want us in their country. They dont want us there. There have been polls of Iraqi citizens. Most believe American troops should leave. Most in the polls think attacks on U.S. troops are justified and morally right. How in the hell is it wrong of me or anyone else to suggest that this war is unwinnable?
The idea that Iraqis will die if we leave is patently absurb, mostly because it has been shown that many Iraqis have died while U.S. troops HAVE BEEN IN IRAQ! A highly respected medical Journal the Lancet in Britain concluded that as a result of this war over 500,000-900,000 Iraqis have died. Is that justified to you buddy? Is that right?
This war was wrong from the start, and the majority of americans polled know this, they voted this way in this November election. Most polls show americans think Iraq "wasnt worth the cost in lives".
The war continues to wound people. People of our generation, in this war, are experiencing something patently sickening and wrong. Stats show this war is resulting in more mentally disturbed veteran soldiers. More soldiers in this current war, are losing limbs and are now amputees, than in Vietnam.
For the sake of all the poor kids lost in this war, on both sides, we must as a nation, withdraw our troops from Iraq, and apologize. The cost wasnt worth it. Ask a mother and father who lost their kid in this war if they want more kids to lose their lives, my guess is they would strongly argue for war to end and the troops to come home.
But what if there is chaos? I'm not saying there will be, but what if. What would you do then?
You also didn't answer my question about why American lives should be valued more. I really wonder about this. Everytime and American dies, it's announced on the news as if it should mean more to Americans than if an Iraqi dies.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
You cant force people to be a democracy. America tried to force Iraq to adopt democracy, forced them with guns and bombs.
The puppet government in Iraq is NOT seen as legitimate by the Iraqi population.
Even if you think getting rid of Saddam was good, and even if you think setting up democracy is good, for the love of god, lets stop it! This is too high a price to pay.
As far as I am concerned, the people who are so gungho about the war never have to serve. never have to suffer like the widows, or surviving members of families who lost loved ones in this war.
Do you have the heart to tell 20 year old kids barely out of high school that, after being called to iraq, 2 times already, they are being recalled back up again?
Still no answer to my question. I'll try once more:
What would you do if there was chaos if the troops were brought home?
I don't understand why there's so much faith in a poll. Polls are just elections and remember that the majority of people in this country voted for Bush. By the "logic" you are using above, that would make them right and Bush to be the best choice.
I'll leave you with this: If nobody volunteered for the military, would it be very easy to go to war?
Finally, I still do not understand why you value American life over Iraqi live. I guess you're just racist...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
This war has been raging more than 4 years.. 600,000 Iraqi lives have already been lost as a result...
This kind of holding together they really don't need.
I did answer your question. In all wars, or at least those waged by America, the other side, the "enemy" always suffers more fatalities than we do. Go through our history books. Every war is like that.
Indeed deaths of Iraqis are not valued by America, and are ignored. I agree. But your talking to the wrong person about this. I have never said American lives are better than Iraqi lives. I dont really know where you got that idea from.
In fact one could argue the violence in Iraq directed against our troops is a result of as you said, the u.s. not valuing Iraq or Muslim lives.
Read Osama Bin Laden's speech's and fatwas. Its clear he's not out like Hitler trying to convert all of the world to Islam. He's not out to conquer all the world's resources and be king. He's not. He has specifically said, the violence on 9/11 was a result of U.S. foreign policy in the middle east. Thats what he said, you can judge on your own if you think he is correct or not, but the text of his speech's and the reasons for 9/11 were never made clear on the u.s. news. But just read his speech's.
And indeed the u.s. sanctions on Iraq resulted in the death of 500000 mostly women and children. When Madaline Albright was asked about this and was asked if this was worth it, she said "yes it is worth it".
So I completely agree, but I am not arguing that American lives are more important. I am arguing that as long as the u.s. occupies Iraq horrors like what happened yesterday will continue to occur.
The fact remains when saddam was in power and when Osama was in power, people werent flying airplanes into buildings in those countries. They werent flying planes into saddams palace or flying planes into Osama's residence.
The death toll of Iraqis is indeed disturbing. Extrapolating stats, one could assume we have killed close to 1 million iraqis so far. That is unforgivable and wrong.
But pulling out of Iraq will stop the attacks on our troops. We owe the Iraqis that much. And we owe our troops that much.
I dont have to justify my feelings to you, but its crazy what you are saying, and anyone who spent time in this forum in the last 4 years knows that although they may think I am a oddball Marxist hippie pinko, I certainly dont think American lives should be valued more than anyone else in the world. All life is precious.
Dont accuse me of things you have no basis for.
I was reacting to the news of 25 dead Americans in one day. As I said certainly newsworthy. And certainly discussion worthy.
I wont do anything if iraq decends into chaos, if we pull out. This war is wrong, and obviously you seem to be one of the few people who has their head in the sand.
You can go on believeing this war is right, and that the death of more soldiers is right. Or you can wake up, and stop the madness, that is killing more and more of our fine young children. You seem to like "lala land", I dont. I live in the real world.
What are you basing the opinion that "I dont value Iraqi life" on? What did I say that gave you that idea?
Look at your thread title. That's where I got that from. Do you know how many Iraqis were killed yesterday? To me each is equally important, but to many others - apparently including yourself - the American number takes precedence. You may THINK that you're not perpetuating it, but you are.
Also, I'll ask this again. If nobody was willing to fight, could you still wage a war?
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
By extension, your reaction to this news wasnt outrage. Even if your for the goddamn war 25 dead soldiers has to trigger some response in you, right?
Are you in agreeance with war criminal Albright that more dead American soldiers is justified?
I am against all war - regardless the reason.
That being said, when you use a statement about the number of "American" deaths as your argument for bringing troops home, then you are part of the problem. People need to realize that everyone is equally valuable, and it isn't going to happen until people like you stop placing more importance on the lives of Americans.
I'd like to get a straight answer from you on this:
If it were possible to prove that more lives were being pro-longed due to the American occupation of Iraq, than would be if America were not there, would you still be for removal of the troops.
Can you j
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Whats your political stance?
Cause I was protesting immediately after 9/11 against the horrors of what happened in NYC but also what was going to happen as a result of u.s. bombing in response.
I protested in the lead up to the iraq war, against the blood that was going to be shed by Americans and Iraqis.
I protested when we actually sent troops in against the blood that was shed by both iraqis and Americans.
I am now protesting the imminent war against Iran against the blood that will be shed by Americans and Iraqis.
I take huge offence at your characterization of me. You dont know a goddamn thing about me.
I reacted to some news I read. Obviously you couldnt care less about the 25 dead. It doesnt matter to you. Sad indeed.
Dont tell me I dont care about Iraqi lives. Read some of my previous posts. Dont go accusing me of things that are wrong.
Whats funny is you seem to lack the eyesight to see I have dropped many clues as to how I feel about Iraqi lives, from the reference to Albright, to the reference to the Lancet study. Yet you cant admit you were wrong in saying I didnt care about Iraqis.
I READ THE GODDAMN TITLE. IT said 25 dead in Iraq in a single day. This via CNN. I REACTED TO THE GODDAMN TITLE> BIG DEAL!!
The wars wrong. I mourn both sides. Whats the big deal? Whats your problem in understand that basic idea?
I have many posts in my posting history where I claim that the actions of many troops, u.s. troops in Iraq was war crime worthy.
As I said, dont accuse me of things that are patently false. Argue with me about whether the war should continue or not, but in the future dont say I that I care more about americans. Thats so ridiculous
I posted my horror over the nearly 1 million iraqi civilians dead in this war. What more do you want?
For example, I do not feel compassion for people who volunteer to fight and kill others.
Or, if I truly feel that less people would be killed if the U.S. continues it's occupation, then they should continue it.
I currently think that what is going on now is not a war. I think it is an occupation and an operation to minimize the damage. If that means the troops should stay and not leave millions of Iraqi people at the mercy of terrorists and extremists, then they should stay.
My main issue was that it's not right to give the impression that American lives are more important. In my opinion, if you want to do more to help your side of the issue, you'd start thinking in terms of just "lives" as opposed to "American" or "Iraqi" livess.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
You posted it after I called you out on it. If you'd settle down for a second and consider what I'm saying, you'd see that I'm trying to help you make your point more effectively. If you'd be more careful and try not to show a bias or favoritism for American lives, it might make your other points more effective.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I turned on my computer. Scanned the news, and came across the headline that 25 american soldiers died yesterday. i was upset about it. I posted my brief response to that. I dont think I was wrong in doing that. Its what the CNN headline said, and as far as I know its truthful. It hasnt been disputed.
Although its nice to have a fellow pacifist here on the board, I find it rather annoying that from the beggining, your response to my post wasnt "gee thats horrible that people died today but I wish you would also talk about Iraqis"
No from the first post, your tone was acusatory. You seemed to suggest you knew me and my intensions.
As I said before you know as well as I do, the nightly news wont focus ont he iraqi deaths. Because as I said we dont do body counts of Iraqis. Thats wrong.
I reacted to a headline, I am against this war because of the lives lost on both sides. I dont really know how much more clear I could have been.
Just because I dont post anger over the deaths of Iraqis in every SINGLE of my posts doesnt mean anything.
You were wrong to attack me.
Boo Hoo.
When I see anyone anywhere give "American" lives as a reason for anything about Iraq - whether that's in support of continuing the occupation or for bringing troops home - I find it sad because they are either ignorant or a racist or both.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
What I'm saying is that you might do portray your position a little more effectively if you'll do less reacting and more thinking.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Anyone, pacifists included, who isnt upset by 25 american soldiers dead, is a sadist, and someone who obviously isnt a pacifist but rather a supporter of the deaths of innocent people. I dont know any pacifist who fits that definition. Gandhi and MLK didnt think the deaths of Americans was justified. And they also were for recognizing the deaths of other people in other countries as well.
Anyone who thinks the death of 25 american soldiers is not something profoundly disturbing, then that person obviously as I said enjoys the suffering of others and enjoys death and misery. I have no compassion for those people. None whatsoever. People like Bush, Cheney, and apparently also someone here too!
So then why do you have compassion for people who volunteered to go and kill people - i.e. the military?
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
What pacifist delights in the death of Americans? What pacifist thinks only people in foreign lands are deserving of mourning when mass death occurs?
Even though I opposed the war (and all wars), I'm at least open to the possibility that the situation today might be best served by the military continuing to occupy.
I mean, if someone is so opposed to war that they would blindly demand that troops come home even if that would increase the frequency of deaths in Irag, then they're not really a pacifist in my book.
It's OK to have opposed the war, but recognize that the situation that presents itself now might require military action to minimize killing.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I think the point that know1 is trying to make is more about you saying to bring them home. from your original post, you seemed to use the example of 25 US troops dying to support the idea of bringing them home.
The next question is that does bringing the troops home right now help prevent more overall deaths or cause more?
A logical argument can be made that by bringing the troops home now that more people will die then if we keep them there.
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
Pacifism is about having compassion for your enemies and loving your enemy. The idea that love conquers all.
So hating and wanting to kill american troops does nothing. Its counterproductive.
Bacis Pacifism 101 here buddy. This aint Marxist theorietics here, its basic info. Obviously you claim to be things your not