Well as far as Congress just look at my sig and you will see what I think about them. No we shouldn't pull out because of troop deaths or because Bush is the worst President in modern times. We should pull out because the Iraqi government is unwilling to do what it takes to secure their country and move forward with national reunification. Why should our troops keep dying for a country that has no intention of ending the sectarian violence? I say if the Iraqi government does not make significant progress in reigning in the militias, insurgents, and death squads and putting aside sectarian loyalties in favor of national reunification by the beginning of summer we pack it up and get out. Let them sort their own shit out.
Stating that the Iraqi government is unwilling is a regurgitation of what is reported by most of the media. And while they may be right, I don't beleive that is the case. I agree with most of your last comment. Iraqis do need to make significant progress soon.
Stating that the Iraqi government is unwilling is a regurgitation of what is reported by most of the media. And while they may be right, I don't beleive that is the case. I agree with most of your last comment. Iraqis do need to make significant progress soon.
No it's not merely a regurgitation of the media. It is what has been stated by almost every Middle East expert on this planet. You have most of the ministries within the government under the control of some secterian group. Finances are being funneled along sectarian lines and up until this week Malaki has done absolutely nothing to curb Shia militias. You have military personel and police personel who are unwilling to carry out missions in certain areas because of their loyalties and these men are not in the minority. The Iraqi government has been infiltrated to it's core by sectarian groups who only want to look out for themselves and those loyal to them. Malaki himself has received massive support from Muqtada al-Sadr. Do you really think he is going to bite the hand that feeds him? If the Iraqi government is willing to uphold it's end of the deal then we should see it through but if they keep on falling short, as they have been, I say it's time to pull out. We give them a realistic timeline to meet certain objectives such as reducing government support for militias, insurgent groups, and death squads and bringing all parties to the table to discuss national reunification. If these goals are not met, because of Iraqi unwillingness, by the stated deadline then they are on their own.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
No it's not merely a regurgitation of the media. It is what has been stated by almost every Middle East expert on this planet. You have most of the ministries within the government under the control of some secterian group. Finances are being funneled along sectarian lines and up until this week Malaki has done absolutely nothing to curb Shia militias. You have military personel and police personel who are unwilling to carry out missions in certain areas because of their loyalties and these men are not in the minority. The Iraqi government has been infiltrated to it's core by sectarian groups who only want to look out for themselves and those loyal to them. Malaki himself has received massive support from Muqtada al-Sadr. Do you really think he is going to bite the hand that feeds him? If the Iraqi government is willing to uphold it's end of the deal then we should see it through but if they keep on falling short, as they have been, I say it's time to pull out. We give them a realistic timeline to meet certain objectives such as reducing government support for militias, insurgent groups, and death squads and bringing all parties to the table to discuss national reunification. If these goals are not met, because of Iraqi unwillingness, by the stated deadline then they are on their own.
I have to doubt that you have heard almost every Middle East expert's opinion. However, unlike some anti-war veiws, yours in my opinion is a responsible one. Others including myself may not agree with it, but it is one based in reason and I can respect that. Rather than getting into a full on debate, it was only my point to point out that troop death figures are a weak excuse for pulling out.
right extra security could have prevented such an attack
yea that or the fact that the country is at war.
what do you mean? end combat operations and let soldiers be soldiers. I thought soldiers are soldiers when they are in combat. so which is it? its a rhetorical question. I dont need a 500 words cosmo essay
so do we stay and fix it or leave? thats a good one. Saddams Iraq like disneyland. what a dumb thing to say. so many people would love to have him back in power. I dont understand that
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The article refers to the additional troops allocated by Bush. I questioned... how could the additional troops being flown in from U.S., European or Middle Eastern countries have stopped the bombing? There are already 140,000 troops stationed there... why couldn't they stop it?
I'll tell you why... because they couldn't. No one could stop the bombing. They go off anywhere, without warning. How do you expect our troops to stop something they are unaware of?
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Soldiers are supposed to be soldiers... but, we are asking our soldiers to be cops. That is because President Bush declared combat operations completed, therefore, changing the role of our military there. If you believe it to be a war, then delcare it a war. Let them to immediately return incoming fire instead of having to mount a raid party to go an 'investigate' the firing position? Why support a policy that takes away the ability of our soldiers to act as soldiers?
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Saddam was contained and under surveillance. There was no way he could mobilize his army (what was left of it) to threaten his neighbors or anyone. Yeah, he was an asshole, but his Iron Fist kept a tighter lid on the sectarian violence that we are. Maybe Iraqis NEED someone to rule over them with an Iron Fist... replace a Sunni Hussein with an Shi'ite al Sadr and what do you have? The same fucking thing. The power vaccuum and Civil War that early war supporters predicted would happen 3 years ago... if we had left then... came to be true, even with our presense.
Do you support this war now... I know you did in the past. But, with things as they are today... do you still support the current tactics with the current level of our involvement or not?
I wish we could leave... but, we can't. We can leave when we fix the shit we fucked up. And the way we're doing it isn't doing much of anything.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I have to doubt that you have heard almost every Middle East expert's opinion.
No I haven't but I have read enough reports, including the Iraq Study Group's report which includes the input of many of these experts, to believe their assesment of the conditions in Iraq. Their assesment of the situation in Iraq is based on knowledge, understanding and experience that all of us on this board combined do not possess. Regardless of our opinion of wether this war should have or shouldn't have been fought, I'm pretty sure we can all agree that Iraq is not doing enough to establish and secure their country. It is their country and if they are unwilling to do what is necessary to secure their future why should we.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
Not a necessity according to you. According to Congress, it was a necessity. They overwhelmingly voted in favor of it. My point in that comparison was to point out that just because soldiers are dying doesn't mean we should pack it up and pull out. All of you opposed to the war should start offering up better reasons than troop deaths and hating Bush. Those excuses are weak and easily refuted.
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Okay... here you go...
Because the violence there has evolved into Iraqi on Iraqi violence. What do our troops do... pick a side? Which side? The one that is in charge and aligned with Iran.. so we become iran's ally... or the ones not in charge... so we oppose the 'democratic' government we installed? If we choose a side... there is a great possibility that the side we choose will conduct an ethnic cleansing of their opponents. I do not want the U.S. involved with any type of genocide. And... If we aren't going to do anything... why are we even there?
And I heard the arguements in 2004 when war supporters, like youself, said that our withdrawal would lead to chaos and civil war. Well, our staying hasn't prevented chaos and civil war... has it?
Our troops are tasked police work. Incoming mortar rounds cannot be immediately returned. Instead, they have to mount a 'raid party' to the launch site and by the time they get there... the ones who lobbed the rockets in are gone and the residents claim they didn't see anything. If our troops are there to fight... let them fight.
Finally... President Bush and former Secretary Rumsfeld brag about 320,000 'trainned Iraqi Forces'... where are they? A coalition of 460,000 U.S./Iraqi troops can't stop this violence? How many troops can?
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There you go.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
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Okay... here you go...
Because the violence there has evolved into Iraqi on Iraqi violence. What do our troops do... pick a side? Which side? The one that is in charge and aligned with Iran.. so we become iran's ally... or the ones not in charge... so we oppose the 'democratic' government we installed? If we choose a side... there is a great possibility that the side we choose will conduct an ethnic cleansing of their opponents. I do not want the U.S. involved with any type of genocide. And... If we aren't going to do anything... why are we even there?
And I heard the arguements in 2004 when war supporters, like youself, said that our withdrawal would lead to chaos and civil war. Well, our staying hasn't prevented chaos and civil war... has it?
Our troops are tasked police work. Incoming mortar rounds cannot be immediately returned. Instead, they have to mount a 'raid party' to the launch site and by the time they get there... the ones who lobbed the rockets in are gone and the residents claim they didn't see anything. If our troops are there to fight... let them fight.
Finally... President Bush and former Secretary Rumsfeld brag about 320,000 'trainned Iraqi Forces'... where are they? A coalition of 460,000 U.S./Iraqi troops can't stop this violence? How many troops can?
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There you go.
Iraqi on Iraqi violence is the only violence in Iraq. Wrong.
We installed a government in Iraq. Wrong.
I said/posted that withdrawal from Iraq would lead to chaos and civil war. Wrong.
If I believed any of the above statements I would be against the war too. Try sticking to facts and not your assumptions. If you are still against the war, then give an opinion that is rooted in fact rather than bending the truth to fit your veiw.
Iraqi on Iraqi violence is the only violence in Iraq. Wrong.
We installed a government in Iraq. Wrong.
I said/posted that withdrawal from Iraq would lead to chaos and civil war. Wrong.
If I believed any of the above statements I would be against the war too. Try sticking to facts and not your assumptions. If you are still against the war, then give an opinion that is rooted in fact rather than bending the truth to fit your veiw.
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From your responses, you are stating that you believe the following:
1. Iraqi Shi'ites vs Iraqi Sunnis violence is not a major factor in the current sectarian violence in Iraq. Note: I never stated it was the ONLY violence in Iraq.
2. We did not topple the previous regime and 'Spread Democracy' in Iraq.
3. Iraq is not currently in a state of chaos and/or civil war.
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Are we talking about the same Iraq, here? The one I'm referencing is the one that's in the Middle East... Northwest of Saudi Arabia, West of Iran... next to Syria. i have no idea which Iraq your are talking about.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
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From your responses, you are stating that you do not believe the following:
1. Iraqi Shi'ites vs Iraqi Sunnis is not a major factor in the current sectarian violence in iraq. Note: I never stated it was the ONLY violence in Iraq.
2. We did not 'Spread Democracy' in Iraq.
3. Iraq is not currently in a state of chaos and/or civil war.
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Are we talking about the same Iraq, here? The one I'm referencing is the one that's in the Middle East... Northwest of Saudi Arabia, West of Iran... next to Syria. i haveno idea which iraq your are talking about.
Again with the assumptions. Only this time they come with putting words in my mouth on the side. It is only known to you and others opposed to the war that i disagree with you and nothing more. "Because the violence has evolved.....". Do you mean some of the violence? We are in the process of trying to spread Democracy. Iraq is certainly not stable. You have no idea which Iraq I'm talking about because I'm not talking about Iraq. I'm talking about your opinions of Iraq in which you use half-truths, assumptions, etc. to form them like so many others. Try sticking to facts.
Again with the assumptions. Only this time they come with putting words in my mouth on the side. It is only known to you and others opposed to the war that i disagree with you and nothing more. "Because the violence has evolved.....". Do you mean some of the violence? We are in the process of trying to spread Democracy. Iraq is certainly not stable. You have no idea which Iraq I'm talking about because I'm not talking about Iraq. I'm talking about your opinions of Iraq in which you use half-truths, assumptions, etc. to form them like so many others. Try sticking to facts.
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Are you for real? The words I use are the ones coming out of your mouth... well, maybe not your mouth... sounds more like someone you seen on T.V.
And you are rather confusing:
"We installed a government in Iraq. Wrong."
"We are in the process of trying to spread Democracy."
So, what is it? Are we responsible for their elections or not? If we are in this process (which I am venturing to guess... yup, GUESS)... that you have no idea what the process is. What are the goals, milestones, tasks, metrics... any of that... where are we in this process. It's just a nice little word you've picked up to express your vague view.
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Also... you have not state ONE fact... here are the ones I have stated.
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Fact: Iraqi Shi'ites and Iraqi Sunnis are killing each other in Iraq.
Fact: The U.S. toppled the Hussein regime and instituted free elections in Iraq... which, being a majority of Shi'ia (another fact), they've elected a Shi'ite government.
Fact: Iraqi fighting Iraqis for power based on conflicting ideologies is a Civil War. Bombs going off when you are in the marketplace means chaos.
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You are the one who said the people who are against the war can only come up with two reasons... soldier death and hatred of Bush. I gave you others, but you cannot dispute them... you ignore them an excuse them as 'opinion'. You have no clue, do you? Oh... your President is gonna be on T.V. pretty soon... better get your copy of the Weekly Standard and a tube of K-Y.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
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Are you for real? The words I use are the ones coming out of your mouth... well, maybe not your mouth... sounds more like someone you seen on T.V.
And you are rather confusing:
"We installed a government in Iraq. Wrong."
"We are in the process of trying to spread Democracy."
So, what is it? Are we responsible for their elections or not? If we are in this process (which I am venturing to guess... yup, GUESS)... that you have no idea what the process is. What are the goals, milestones, tasks, metrics... any of that... where are we in this process. It's just a nice little word you've picked up to express your vague view.
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Also... you have not state ONE fact... here are the ones I have stated.
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Fact: Iraqi Shi'ites and Iraqi Sunnis are killing each other in Iraq.
Fact: The U.S. toppled the Hussein regime and instituted free elections in Iraq... which, being a majority of Shi'ia (another fact), they've elected a Shi'ite government.
Fact: Iraqi fighting Iraqis for power based on conflicting ideologies is a Civil War. Bombs going off when you are in the marketplace means chaos.
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You are the one who said the people who are against the war can only come up with two reasons... soldier death and hatred of Bush. I gave you others, but you cannot dispute them... you ignore them an excuse them as 'opinion'. You have no clue, do you? Oh... your President is gonna be on T.V. pretty soon... better get your copy of the Weekly Standard and a tube of K-Y.
You said we installed a government in Iraq in your 1st post. That's false. The goals have been made crystal clear many times over. My veiw is vague to you and it will stay that way. I've stated many facts concerning your opinion. I will not go back over them. You stated none of those 3 facts in your previous posts. You misquote me by stating people can only come up with two reasons to hate the war. I did dispute your previous reasons and gave explantions. Can you not read or interpet? This may be one of the greastest facts of all relevant to this topic, he's your president too.
You said we installed a government in Iraq in your 1st post. That's false. The goals have been made crystal clear many times over. My veiw is vague to you and it will stay that way. I've stated many facts concerning your opinion. I will not go back over them. You stated none of those 3 facts in your previous posts. You misquote me by stating people can only come up with two reasons to hate the war. I did dispute your previous reasons and gave explantions. Can you not read or interpet? This may be one of the greastest facts of all relevant to this topic, he's your president too.
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We did install the government... look at how it's panned out. The elections have resulted in the Shi'ite majority taking over. We knew this would happen, right? I mean, 60% beats 40% divided by 2 in any universe. None of this would have happened if we didn't embark on this little adventure.
As for this...
"The goals have been made crystal clear many times over."
I missed that memo (apparently, many times over)... can you please go over them? I mean, if they have been outlined many times over.... there must be many sources to provide me, right? Thanx.
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And this: "I've stated many facts concerning your opinion."
For the life of me... I looked and I can't seem to find them. Please... reference them and i will respectfully yield you those points.
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"You misquote me by stating people can only come up with two reasons to hate the war."
Here is where I got that impression:
"All of you opposed to the war should start offering up better reasons than troop deaths and hating Bush. " - american (Post #92 - Current Thread)
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"I did dispute your previous reasons and gave explantions."
Forgive me if i'm incorrect here... but, "Wrong. Wrong. Wrong." are not really explanations, are they?... an explanation is a completed thought in most of the world.
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And yes... you have stated a FACT... Yes, indeed... President Bush is MY president, too. I didn't vote for him... twice. But, regardless of my vote, he is my President and I accept him as such... I still think he's a tool, but he is my President. Point for you. See... that wasn't so tough, was it?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
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We did install the government... look at how it's panned out. The elections have resulted in the Shi'ite majority taking over. We knew this would happen, right? I mean, 60% beats 40% divided by 2 in any universe. That would have never happened if we didn't set it up.
As for this...
"The goals have been made crystal clear many times over."
I missed that memo... can you please go over them? Thanx.
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And this: "I've stated many facts concerning your opinion."
For the life of me... I can't seem to find them. Please... reference them and i will respectfully yield those points.
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"You misquote me by stating people can only come up with two reasons to hate the war."
Here is where i got that impression:
"All of you opposed to the war should start offering up better reasons than troop deaths and hating Bush. " - american
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"I did dispute your previous reasons and gave explantions."
Forgive me if i'm incorrect here... but, "Wrong. Wrong. Wrong." are not really explanations... an explanation is a completed thought in most of the world.
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And yes... you have stated a FACT... Yes, indeed... President Bush is MY president, too. I didn't vote for him... twice. But, regardless of my vote, he is my President. Point for you. See... that wasn't so tough, was it?
If we installed a government why were there elections? Elections aren't needed if an installed government is in place.
The goals of this war have been made clear. I'm not to go over them for you.
Your opinions are formed using assumptions: America installed the Iraqi government which is false. I will not go over the others again.
You took what i stated and admittedly turned it in to something else. That's my "impression".
Go back and reread my posts for my explanations. I'm horrible at typing.
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We did install the government... look at how it's panned out. The elections have resulted in the Shi'ite majority taking over. We knew this would happen, right? I mean, 60% beats 40 divided by 2 in any universe.
As for this...
"The goals have been made crystal clear many times over."
I missed that memo (apparently, many times over)... can you please go over them? I mean, if they have been outlined many times over.... there must be many sources to provide me, right? Thanx.
...
And this: "I've stated many facts concerning your opinion."
For the life of me... I can't seem to find them. Please... reference them and i will respectfully yield those points.
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"You misquote me by stating people can only come up with two reasons to hate the war."
Here is where i got that impression:
"All of you opposed to the war should start offering up better reasons than troop deaths and hating Bush. " - american
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"I did dispute your previous reasons and gave explantions."
Forgive me if i'm incorrect here... but, "Wrong. Wrong. Wrong." are not really explanations, are they?... an explanation is a completed thought in most of the world.
...
And yes... you have stated a FACT... Yes, indeed... President Bush is MY president, too. I didn't vote for him... twice. But, regardless of my vote, he is my President and I accept him as such... I still think he's a tool, but he is my President. Point for you. See... that wasn't so tough, was it?
You can repeat yourself till your blue in the face and some people still will not get it.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
If we installed a government why were there elections? Elections aren't needed if an installed government is in place.
The goals of this war have been made clear. I'm not to go over them for you.
Your opinions are formed using assumptions: America installed the Iraqi government which is false. I will not go over the others again.
You took what i stated and admittedly turned it in to something else. That's my "impression".
Go back and reread my posts for my explanations. I'm horrible at typing.
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Let me interpret this from american to English:
"If we installed a government why were there elections? Elections aren't needed if an installed government is in place."
Means: "I still don't get what Cosmo is trying to say... so, I'll just keep saying he's wrong."
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"The goals of this war have been made clear. I'm not to go over them for you."
Means: "I just pulled that out of my ass... I really don't know but, i'm not going to say, 'I don't know'... even if it makes me look really, really dumb."
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"Your opinions are formed using assumptions: America installed the Iraqi government which is false. I will not go over the others again."
Means: "Since all I have are opinions... everyone else must only have opinions, too... so we are all equal... regardless of facts used to back statements. I'll just keep making up shit and expecting people to take it as fact."
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"You took what i stated and admittedly turned it in to something else. That's my "impression"."
Means: "Rew ytre nohktr pohkhoptr oykhoi kmgmoigmnr kgokgr kgorje iow mfoijei rmgoi ie oe oe oijnewqqrjng."
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"Go back and reread my posts for my explanations. I'm horrible at typing.'
Means: "I know they don't exist... I will make Cosmo go back and re-read them all. Hopefully, those words will make his head hurt as much as they make my head hurt and he will quit asking me to back up my comments."
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I'm done with this... I mean... it's kind of fun being a prick... but, now... you bore me.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
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Let me interpret this from american to English:
"If we installed a government why were there elections? Elections aren't needed if an installed government is in place."
Means: "I still don't get what Cosmo is trying to say... so, I'll just keep saying he's wrong."
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"The goals of this war have been made clear. I'm not to go over them for you."
Means: "I just pulled that out of my ass... I really don't know but, i'm not going to say, 'I don't know'... even if it makes me look really, really dumb."
...
"Your opinions are formed using assumptions: America installed the Iraqi government which is false. I will not go over the others again."
Means: "Since all I have are opinions... everyone else must only have opinions, too... so we are all equal... regardless of facts used to back statements. I'll just keep making up shit and expecting people to take it as fact."
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"You took what i stated and admittedly turned it in to something else. That's my "impression"."
Means: "Rew ytre nohktr pohkhoptr oykhoi kmgmoigmnr kgokgr kgorje iow mfoijei rmgoi ie oe oe oijnewqqrjng."
...
"Go back and reread my posts for my explanations. I'm horrible at typing.'
Means: "I know they don't exist... I will make Cosmo go back and re-read them all. Hopefully, those words will make his head hurt as much as they make my head hurt and he will quit asking me to back up my comments."
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I'm done with this... I mean... it's kind of fun being a prick... but, now... you bore me.
You mean you are an elistist prick. You are just another liberal that makes up whatever facts you need to justify your point. If you have to make up facts to make your point, you don't have a point. Go ahead and write history how you see fit.
Comments
No it's not merely a regurgitation of the media. It is what has been stated by almost every Middle East expert on this planet. You have most of the ministries within the government under the control of some secterian group. Finances are being funneled along sectarian lines and up until this week Malaki has done absolutely nothing to curb Shia militias. You have military personel and police personel who are unwilling to carry out missions in certain areas because of their loyalties and these men are not in the minority. The Iraqi government has been infiltrated to it's core by sectarian groups who only want to look out for themselves and those loyal to them. Malaki himself has received massive support from Muqtada al-Sadr. Do you really think he is going to bite the hand that feeds him? If the Iraqi government is willing to uphold it's end of the deal then we should see it through but if they keep on falling short, as they have been, I say it's time to pull out. We give them a realistic timeline to meet certain objectives such as reducing government support for militias, insurgent groups, and death squads and bringing all parties to the table to discuss national reunification. If these goals are not met, because of Iraqi unwillingness, by the stated deadline then they are on their own.
The article refers to the additional troops allocated by Bush. I questioned... how could the additional troops being flown in from U.S., European or Middle Eastern countries have stopped the bombing? There are already 140,000 troops stationed there... why couldn't they stop it?
I'll tell you why... because they couldn't. No one could stop the bombing. They go off anywhere, without warning. How do you expect our troops to stop something they are unaware of?
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Soldiers are supposed to be soldiers... but, we are asking our soldiers to be cops. That is because President Bush declared combat operations completed, therefore, changing the role of our military there. If you believe it to be a war, then delcare it a war. Let them to immediately return incoming fire instead of having to mount a raid party to go an 'investigate' the firing position? Why support a policy that takes away the ability of our soldiers to act as soldiers?
...
Saddam was contained and under surveillance. There was no way he could mobilize his army (what was left of it) to threaten his neighbors or anyone. Yeah, he was an asshole, but his Iron Fist kept a tighter lid on the sectarian violence that we are. Maybe Iraqis NEED someone to rule over them with an Iron Fist... replace a Sunni Hussein with an Shi'ite al Sadr and what do you have? The same fucking thing. The power vaccuum and Civil War that early war supporters predicted would happen 3 years ago... if we had left then... came to be true, even with our presense.
Do you support this war now... I know you did in the past. But, with things as they are today... do you still support the current tactics with the current level of our involvement or not?
I wish we could leave... but, we can't. We can leave when we fix the shit we fucked up. And the way we're doing it isn't doing much of anything.
Hail, Hail!!!
No I haven't but I have read enough reports, including the Iraq Study Group's report which includes the input of many of these experts, to believe their assesment of the conditions in Iraq. Their assesment of the situation in Iraq is based on knowledge, understanding and experience that all of us on this board combined do not possess. Regardless of our opinion of wether this war should have or shouldn't have been fought, I'm pretty sure we can all agree that Iraq is not doing enough to establish and secure their country. It is their country and if they are unwilling to do what is necessary to secure their future why should we.
Okay... here you go...
Because the violence there has evolved into Iraqi on Iraqi violence. What do our troops do... pick a side? Which side? The one that is in charge and aligned with Iran.. so we become iran's ally... or the ones not in charge... so we oppose the 'democratic' government we installed? If we choose a side... there is a great possibility that the side we choose will conduct an ethnic cleansing of their opponents. I do not want the U.S. involved with any type of genocide. And... If we aren't going to do anything... why are we even there?
And I heard the arguements in 2004 when war supporters, like youself, said that our withdrawal would lead to chaos and civil war. Well, our staying hasn't prevented chaos and civil war... has it?
Our troops are tasked police work. Incoming mortar rounds cannot be immediately returned. Instead, they have to mount a 'raid party' to the launch site and by the time they get there... the ones who lobbed the rockets in are gone and the residents claim they didn't see anything. If our troops are there to fight... let them fight.
Finally... President Bush and former Secretary Rumsfeld brag about 320,000 'trainned Iraqi Forces'... where are they? A coalition of 460,000 U.S./Iraqi troops can't stop this violence? How many troops can?
...
There you go.
Hail, Hail!!!
We installed a government in Iraq. Wrong.
I said/posted that withdrawal from Iraq would lead to chaos and civil war. Wrong.
If I believed any of the above statements I would be against the war too. Try sticking to facts and not your assumptions. If you are still against the war, then give an opinion that is rooted in fact rather than bending the truth to fit your veiw.
From your responses, you are stating that you believe the following:
1. Iraqi Shi'ites vs Iraqi Sunnis violence is not a major factor in the current sectarian violence in Iraq. Note: I never stated it was the ONLY violence in Iraq.
2. We did not topple the previous regime and 'Spread Democracy' in Iraq.
3. Iraq is not currently in a state of chaos and/or civil war.
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Are we talking about the same Iraq, here? The one I'm referencing is the one that's in the Middle East... Northwest of Saudi Arabia, West of Iran... next to Syria. i have no idea which Iraq your are talking about.
Hail, Hail!!!
Are you for real? The words I use are the ones coming out of your mouth... well, maybe not your mouth... sounds more like someone you seen on T.V.
And you are rather confusing:
"We installed a government in Iraq. Wrong."
"We are in the process of trying to spread Democracy."
So, what is it? Are we responsible for their elections or not? If we are in this process (which I am venturing to guess... yup, GUESS)... that you have no idea what the process is. What are the goals, milestones, tasks, metrics... any of that... where are we in this process. It's just a nice little word you've picked up to express your vague view.
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Also... you have not state ONE fact... here are the ones I have stated.
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Fact: Iraqi Shi'ites and Iraqi Sunnis are killing each other in Iraq.
Fact: The U.S. toppled the Hussein regime and instituted free elections in Iraq... which, being a majority of Shi'ia (another fact), they've elected a Shi'ite government.
Fact: Iraqi fighting Iraqis for power based on conflicting ideologies is a Civil War. Bombs going off when you are in the marketplace means chaos.
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You are the one who said the people who are against the war can only come up with two reasons... soldier death and hatred of Bush. I gave you others, but you cannot dispute them... you ignore them an excuse them as 'opinion'. You have no clue, do you? Oh... your President is gonna be on T.V. pretty soon... better get your copy of the Weekly Standard and a tube of K-Y.
Hail, Hail!!!
We did install the government... look at how it's panned out. The elections have resulted in the Shi'ite majority taking over. We knew this would happen, right? I mean, 60% beats 40% divided by 2 in any universe. None of this would have happened if we didn't embark on this little adventure.
As for this...
"The goals have been made crystal clear many times over."
I missed that memo (apparently, many times over)... can you please go over them? I mean, if they have been outlined many times over.... there must be many sources to provide me, right? Thanx.
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And this: "I've stated many facts concerning your opinion."
For the life of me... I looked and I can't seem to find them. Please... reference them and i will respectfully yield you those points.
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"You misquote me by stating people can only come up with two reasons to hate the war."
Here is where I got that impression:
"All of you opposed to the war should start offering up better reasons than troop deaths and hating Bush. " - american (Post #92 - Current Thread)
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"I did dispute your previous reasons and gave explantions."
Forgive me if i'm incorrect here... but, "Wrong. Wrong. Wrong." are not really explanations, are they?... an explanation is a completed thought in most of the world.
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And yes... you have stated a FACT... Yes, indeed... President Bush is MY president, too. I didn't vote for him... twice. But, regardless of my vote, he is my President and I accept him as such... I still think he's a tool, but he is my President. Point for you. See... that wasn't so tough, was it?
Hail, Hail!!!
The goals of this war have been made clear. I'm not to go over them for you.
Your opinions are formed using assumptions: America installed the Iraqi government which is false. I will not go over the others again.
You took what i stated and admittedly turned it in to something else. That's my "impression".
Go back and reread my posts for my explanations. I'm horrible at typing.
You can repeat yourself till your blue in the face and some people still will not get it.
old music: http://www.myspace.com/slowloader
Let me interpret this from american to English:
"If we installed a government why were there elections? Elections aren't needed if an installed government is in place."
Means: "I still don't get what Cosmo is trying to say... so, I'll just keep saying he's wrong."
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"The goals of this war have been made clear. I'm not to go over them for you."
Means: "I just pulled that out of my ass... I really don't know but, i'm not going to say, 'I don't know'... even if it makes me look really, really dumb."
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"Your opinions are formed using assumptions: America installed the Iraqi government which is false. I will not go over the others again."
Means: "Since all I have are opinions... everyone else must only have opinions, too... so we are all equal... regardless of facts used to back statements. I'll just keep making up shit and expecting people to take it as fact."
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"You took what i stated and admittedly turned it in to something else. That's my "impression"."
Means: "Rew ytre nohktr pohkhoptr oykhoi kmgmoigmnr kgokgr kgorje iow mfoijei rmgoi ie oe oe oijnewqqrjng."
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"Go back and reread my posts for my explanations. I'm horrible at typing.'
Means: "I know they don't exist... I will make Cosmo go back and re-read them all. Hopefully, those words will make his head hurt as much as they make my head hurt and he will quit asking me to back up my comments."
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I'm done with this... I mean... it's kind of fun being a prick... but, now... you bore me.
Hail, Hail!!!
look around, I dont have that many posts compared to everyone else here with "no life"