About the muslims overrunning Europe

bigdvs · April 2008

I guess I just don't get it.

We should appease appease appease and let Islam (which has more in common with fascism then Judaism) creep into our communites become disenfranchised and bitter, due to their religion telling them not to adapt with their new surroundings, and then not expect there to be violence when they bust out so many babies that in 20 years they need to spread further into Western European countries.

No, these writers are right to sound the alarm. Some decisions need to be made in these countries so that we do not end up with democratically elected sharia law.

another different thinking Dan

OutOfBreath · April 2008

bigdvs wrote:

I guess I just don't get it.

We should appease appease appease and let Islam (which has more in common with fascism then Judaism) creep into our communites become disenfranchised and bitter, due to their religion telling them not to adapt with their new surroundings, and then not expect there to be violence when they bust out so many babies that in 20 years they need to spread further into Western European countries.

No, these writers are right to sound the alarm. Some decisions need to be made in these countries so that we do not end up with democratically elected sharia law.

another different thinking Dan

The point of the article is to show that precisely the things you mention now, doesnt have that much of a root in reality. The muslims are also individuals, they do mostly adapt, and they do respect the law in their new countries. The birth rates of which you are so afraid show a quick adaptation to the rates in their new countries for their children. There are integration issues in some places, certainly. But when it comes to writers like the ones mentioned, the muslims are really just the new jews.

Just out of curiosity, what would you have done about it?

Peace
Dan

OutOfBreath · April 2008

RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:

“While Denmark made great efforts to get a hold on the problems of immigration, Sweden did nothing – and thus strode straight into hell. The crime statistics made giant leaps every year, and the number of ghettos increased rapidly”. The growing Muslim population is “unproportionally disposed to violence” and the murder rate is now “twice as high in Sweden as in the US”. The most rabid Muslims are in Malmö – there the “frequency of rape is 5 or 6 times higher than in Copenhagen, and the number of child rape is doubled in 10 years”.

Were there supposed to be a comment attached to this?

Peace
Dan

NMyTree · April 2008

bigdvs wrote:

I guess I just don't get it.

We should appease appease appease and let Islam (which has more in common with fascism then Judaism) creep into our communites become disenfranchised and bitter, due to their religion telling them not to adapt with their new surroundings, and then not expect there to be violence when they bust out so many babies that in 20 years they need to spread further into Western European countries.

No, these writers are right to sound the alarm. Some decisions need to be made in these countries so that we do not end up with democratically elected sharia law.

another different thinking Dan

It is a problem.

It certainly appears that more than just a few Brits have quite a problem with what's going on over there with these Muslims.

And I'm getting similar accounts from friends and family I have in Europe and in the UK.

Historically and tradionally this is what Muslims do when they venture out and migrate to live in the homelands of other cultures. Historically, the result ends up the same. A battle of cultures as Muslims attempt to choke off the indigenous culture and replace it with their Islam.

Certainly no different from what Christians did here in the USA and what Catholics have been doing for centuries. But in my opinion, Islam is a bit more dangerous, intrusive and facist than those other two.

callen · April 2008

NMyTree wrote:

It is a problem.

It certainly appears that more than just a few Brits have quite a problem with what's going on over there with these Muslims.

And I'm getting similar accounts from friends and family I have in Europe and in the UK.

Historically and tradionally this is what Muslims do when they venture out and migrate to live in the homelands of other cultures. Historically, the result ends up the same. A battle of cultures as Muslims attempt to choke off the indigenous culture and replace it with their Islam.

Certainly no different from what Christians did here in the USA and what Catholics have been doing for centuries. But in my opinion, Islam is a bit more dangerous, intrusive and facist than those other two.

yea maybe the first or second generation......but pretty soon the youngins will see what dad preaches is pretty silly....the sooner we integrate the better...

again, ....like rock, paper, sizzors...sex, drugs and rock n roll beat religious doctrine everytime.

Muslim women will get stronger, get careers, keep thier clits........and young Muslim men are as horny as white men.

Now if you fight and kill them..it just drags this whole evolution process on. Cheney and crew have pushed this back couple generations.......BUT Obama will take up some of this.....McCain..well we'll get the whole 2 generation penalty.

angelica · April 2008

callen wrote:

Now if you fight and kill them..it just drags this whole evolution process on.

This is the key point, callen. So very true! It drags the evolution process out, AND we have escalated the situation, and thrown ourselves into the equation of accountability, all while we point the finger at the other guy, not recognizing our own inner blackness.

bigdvs · April 2008

OutOfBreath wrote:

The point of the article is to show that precisely the things you mention now, doesnt have that much of a root in reality. The muslims are also individuals, they do mostly adapt, and they do respect the law in their new countries. The birth rates of which you are so afraid show a quick adaptation to the rates in their new countries for their children. There are integration issues in some places, certainly. But when it comes to writers like the ones mentioned, the muslims are really just the new jews.

Just out of curiosity, what would you have done about it?

Peace
Dan

Seperate church and state. Islam works because of sharia law. Sharia law should be banned from being put into practice in any legal sense because it is a religious belief and not codified law (I would even go as far as to suggest that if any security threat is deemed all burqa are removed regardless). Sharia law exsists to prevent the kind of assimilation over a couple of generations that you hope will happen. With it Islam does not conform it stays as is until it has the numbers to take over. I don't think we live in a world where we can wait 40 years for the children born today to hopefully realize that they are europeans that happen to believe in Islam as opposed to Muslims. Maybe I am wrong.

NMyTree · April 2008

callen wrote:

Now if you fight and kill them..it just drags this whole evolution process on.

By "Fight" do you mean resist them and their intrusive and oppresive bullying?

angelica wrote:

This is the key point, callen. So very true! It drags the evolution process out, AND we have escalated the situation, and thrown ourselves into the equation of accountability, all while we point the finger at the other guy, not recognizing our own inner blackness.

I think you both know I certainly don't advocate/support the war in Iraq or any attack on anyone who is not actively aggressive in attacking us. Whether through military might or unreasoanble swooping sanctions.

But that's not at all the subject matter at hand. This is not a discussion of Infidels attacking Muslims on their own land, in their own countries. This is a discussion/subject matter of migrating Muslims who go to other non-muslim countries and try to intimidate and bully those countries into Islamic law, while shunning, disrespecting and ignoring the cultures and laws of their host countries.

I do get tired of Muslims (and others) painting Muslims as some innocent bystanders who always get attacked or killed by other bullies; through no fault or action of their own.

Muslims have as much a history of oppression, invading, intimidating, bullying and perpetrating aggressive violence upon others (including infidels); for the purpose of spreading their culture (Islam), as anyone else has. And it is no secret Islam has been and continues to be used in a very intrusive, oppressive and discriminatory manner all over the world.

So let's stop talking like Muslims are poor, little lambs minding their own business.

What American foriegn policy, sanctions and Military have done over the years has often (but not always) been absolutely wrong. No doubt.

Again, that's not the subject matter, here.

NMyTree · April 2008

bigdvs wrote:

Seperate church and state. Islam works because of sharia law. Sharia law should be banned from being put into practice in any legal sense because it is a religious belief and not codified law (I would even go as far as to suggest that if any security threat is deemed all burqa are removed regardless). Sharia law exsists to prevent the kind of assimilation over a couple of generations that you hope will happen. With it Islam does not conform it stays as is until it has the numbers to take over.

You are not wrong.

Historically, that's exactly the way it has worked.

angelica · April 2008

NMyTree wrote:

I think you both know I certainly don't advocate/support the war in Iraq or any attack on anyone who is not actively aggressive in attacking us. Whether through military might or unreasoanble swooping sanctions.

But that's not at all the subject matter at hand. This is not a discussion of Infidels attacking Muslims on their own land, in their own countries. This is a discussion/subject matter of migrating Muslims who go to other non-muslim countries and try to intimidate and bully those countries into Islamic law, while shunning, disrespecting and ignoring the cultures and laws of their host countries.

I do get tired of Muslims (and others) painting Muslims as some innocent bystanders who always get attacked or killed by other bullies; through no fault or action of their own.

Muslims have as much a history of oppression, invading, intimidating, bullying and perpetrating aggressive violence upon others (including infidels); for the purpose of spreading their culture (Islam), as anyone else has. And it is no secret Islam has been and continues to be used in a very intrusive, oppressive and discriminatory manner all over the world.

So let's stop talking like Muslims are poor, little lambs minding their own business.

What American foriegn policy, sanctions and Military have done over the years has often (but not always) been absolutely wrong. No doubt.

Again, that's not the subject matter, here.

I always advocate protecting one's boundaries. I advocate not accepting rape, killing, etc. from any individual from any culture/religion, etc. If someone wants to look down on me, that's their business. If someone wants to act disrespectful, that's also their business. If someone hopes to overtake my country and my culture with their own. They have the right to do as they choose and again that's their business until they cross a line and take invasive, boundary-crossing action. I do not have authority as thought/morality police.

Besides those fine lines, I have to let life processes proceed as they do naturally. I have to deal with my fears and concerns without using them as an excuse to justify projecting them onto others and using them as an excue for my own poor adaptation. Things do not always go down optimally, especially when cultures or opposing sides of a coin clash. I do fully recognize the power of choice, and that such a power creates the outcome, positively or negatively. I can choose between actions that perpetuate conflict and maladjustment, and between actions that move into resolution and integration. I choose the latter.

OutOfBreath · April 2008

NMyTree wrote:

But that's not at all the subject matter at hand. This is not a discussion of Infidels attacking Muslims on their own land, in their own countries. This is a discussion/subject matter of migrating Muslims who go to other non-muslim countries and try to intimidate and bully those countries into Islamic law, while shunning, disrespecting and ignoring the cultures and laws of their host countries.

I do get tired of Muslims (and others) painting Muslims as some innocent bystanders who always get attacked or killed by other bullies; through no fault or action of their own.

Muslims have as much a history of oppression, invading, intimidating, bullying and perpetrating aggressive violence upon others (including infidels); for the purpose of spreading their culture (Islam), as anyone else has. And it is no secret Islam has been and continues to be used in a very intrusive, oppressive and discriminatory manner all over the world.

So let's stop talking like Muslims are poor, little lambs minding their own business.

What American foriegn policy, sanctions and Military have done over the years has often (but not always) been absolutely wrong. No doubt.

Again, that's not the subject matter, here.

The problem with this post is the same as the authors mentioned originally are guilty of. "The Muslims" are one in everything. If you moderate these statements, I may not have as much of a problem with them. Some people attacking christianity these days walk into the same traps. One's perception of a group does not mean that that's how all members of a group are. One's perception of a religion, does not mean that's how the adherents view it

Dont get me wrong, personally I am no fan of any religion. And islam has it's issues of course. However I see no reason for crucifying muslims specifically as a group, or laying tons of suspicion upon them for no real reason other than they being a bit different in some ways.

Peace
Dan

OutOfBreath · April 2008

bigdvs wrote:

Seperate church and state. Islam works because of sharia law. Sharia law should be banned from being put into practice in any legal sense because it is a religious belief and not codified law (I would even go as far as to suggest that if any security threat is deemed all burqa are removed regardless). Sharia law exsists to prevent the kind of assimilation over a couple of generations that you hope will happen. With it Islam does not conform it stays as is until it has the numbers to take over. I don't think we live in a world where we can wait 40 years for the children born today to hopefully realize that they are europeans that happen to believe in Islam as opposed to Muslims. Maybe I am wrong.

Anything can be law that the society and it's rulers deem to be law. Religion have heavily influenced the laws in most countries. Also in the enlightened west. That they should be seperate, I agree. But there is no inherent conflict in uniting the two in principle, and they often are to greater or lesser degree.

Do you know what sharia really means to a muslim? Just about the same as if you were to ask a christian if the principles of the bible should be the foundation of society. So of course, truant muslims want sharia, a fair and just world ruled by the word and will of God. The concept of Sharia has a far deeper and really positive meaning than burqas.

And who's talking about waiting 40 years? The descendants born and raised in their new countries have come a long time ago. And like youth everywhere, they adapt to the society they live in, and emulate their new country much more than their immigrant parents.

Muslims are people as well. They are no more slaves to their culture or heritage than other people. They are just as much individuals, and just as much generally decent hard-working people as the rest of us. Which makes the demographics game meaningless.

By all means speak out against what you dont like or find just, but dont label big groups entirely and treat them as of one mind. Dont buy into what armchair theorists and sensationalist media whores say about these things.

Peace
Dan

callen · April 2008

NMyTree wrote:

By "Fight" do you mean resist them and their intrusive and oppresive bullying?

I think you both know I certainly don't advocate/support the war in Iraq or any attack on anyone who is not actively aggressive in attacking us. Whether through military might or unreasoanble swooping sanctions.

But that's not at all the subject matter at hand. This is not a discussion of Infidels attacking Muslims on their own land, in their own countries. This is a discussion/subject matter of migrating Muslims who go to other non-muslim countries and try to intimidate and bully those countries into Islamic law, while shunning, disrespecting and ignoring the cultures and laws of their host countries.

I do get tired of Muslims (and others) painting Muslims as some innocent bystanders who always get attacked or killed by other bullies; through no fault or action of their own.

Muslims have as much a history of oppression, invading, intimidating, bullying and perpetrating aggressive violence upon others (including infidels); for the purpose of spreading their culture (Islam), as anyone else has. And it is no secret Islam has been and continues to be used in a very intrusive, oppressive and discriminatory manner all over the world.

So let's stop talking like Muslims are poor, little lambs minding their own business.

What American foriegn policy, sanctions and Military have done over the years has often (but not always) been absolutely wrong. No doubt.

Again, that's not the subject matter, here.

Generalities....all Muslims aren't bad....all Christians aren't bad....both have oppressed....It's HUMANS that suck.

All religions attempt to increase their flock of sheep.

The thread topic is a discussion of Muslims in Europe not assimilating with their neighbors.
There are fundamentalist Muslims that view western culture as evil and vile....just as fundamentalist Christians. So how do we lower these irrational thoughts (my perspective I know)? By demonstrating the Western Culture in one of peace and equality....not injustice and violence. We will achieve this through young adults...if they see that religious fundamentalists are kooky they will gravitate....guaranteed but not if we continue to call members of their religion evil...or "Axis of Evil". I mean wtf are they supposed to thing....put yourself in their shoes.......someone has to be the bigger man here.....suggest it be us.

Bush fkn sucks....sucks BAD. He fked us for many years....

NMyTree · April 2008

angelica wrote:

I always advocate protecting one's boundaries. I advocate not accepting rape, killing, etc. from any individual from any culture/religion, etc. If someone wants to look down on me, that's their business. If someone wants to act disrespectful, that's also their business. If someone hopes to overtake my country and my culture with their own. They have the right to do as they choose and again that's their business until they cross a line and take invasive, boundary-crossing action. I do not have authority as thought/morality police.

Besides those fine lines, I have to let life processes proceed as they do naturally. I have to deal with my fears and concerns without using them as an excuse to justify projecting them onto others and using them as an excue for my own poor adaptation. Things do not always go down optimally, especially when cultures or opposing sides of a coin clash. I do fully recognize the power of choice, and that such a power creates the outcome, positively or negatively. I can choose between actions that perpetuate conflict and maladjustment, and between actions that move into resolution and integration. I choose the latter.

Absolutely. I understand this.

My agreeing and identifying there is a problem there (with Muslims migrating to non-muslim countries and refusing to respect the host country's culture, refusing to intigrate, and attempting to bully their way to Islamic law); is not the equivelent of my advocating violence against these migrant Muslims.

But ultimately it is a problem that requires attention and a workable (hopefully peaceful) solution.

It's simply identifying there is a problem.

By the same token, I don't believe you can just sit back and let it continue to progress and evolve into what could ultimately become a very dangerous and violent situation. At some point these Muslims need to be he held accountable and responsible (in a hopefully mature, respectful, rational and peaceful manner) for their actions and their refusal to respect the cultures and laws of their host country.

But from the videos I have seen, from the accounts of my family and friends in the UK and Europe; mature, respectfull, rational and peaceful does not appear to be a manner in which many of these Muslims are willing to approach the situation and issues at hand.

Again, at some point these particular Muslims need to be held accountable for their own behavior. As opposed to people just glossing over it, redirecting or making excuses for their behavior.

NMyTree · April 2008

OutOfBreath wrote:

However I see no reason for crucifying muslims specifically as a group, or laying tons of suspicion upon them for no real reason other than they being a bit different in some ways.
Peace
Dan

I was not generalizing Muslims as a whole, nor was I crucifying them. I was speaking in terms of the Muslims who are doing this and the fact Muslims/Islam's' history is as filled with the actions I mentioned, as any other religion/culture.

You decided to interpret it in that way. . I refuse to place ridiculous disclaimers before every sentence (or a "Not All Muslims" disclaimer after every instance where I use the word "Muslim"), when it's so blatantly obvious I'm speaking in terms of the Muslims who are behaving in this manner and the Muslims who took part in the history of violence and oppression.

I clearly stated............

Muslims have as much a history of oppression, invading, intimidating, bullying and perpetrating aggressive violence upon others (including infidels); for the purpose of spreading their culture (Islam), as anyone else has. You call that "crucifying" them? When it's clear I'm simply stating they are no better, no worse than anyone else?

NMyTree · April 2008

callen wrote:

Generalities.........

Oh for god's sake. You people are ridiculous. How many times do we have to run over the same old ground on this?

There were no generalities in my post. Only in the way you interpreted my post. Read my previous post (to this one).

Sheeesh.

callen · April 2008

NMyTree wrote:

Oh for god's sake. You people are ridiculous. How many times do we have to run over the same old ground on this?

There were no generalities in my post. Only in the way you interpreted my post. Read my previous post (to this one).

Sheeesh.

Peace my freind...hell I even posted with smiley face.......:)

just the way I read your post....when you write Muslims I just assumed (wrongly) you meant all Muslims..

NMyTree · April 2008

callen wrote:

Peace my freind...hell I even posted with smiley face.......:)

just the way I read your post....when you write Muslims I just assumed (wrongly) you meant all Muslims..

Believe me, you and I think more alike than differently.

Christians.....Catholics....the Pope.....The Catholic Church......Islam.......

People suck when they become obsessed with or use religion as a tool to justify their greed or hate.

Same with money. Money and over-the-top....... extreme capitalism, is in my opinion, as bad as any religious extremist; no matter what God they pray to. They are all crappy human beings.

P.S. I didn't see you're smiley face because I didn't scroll up far enough.

P.S. II Peace and Love to you

angelica · April 2008

NMyTree wrote:

Absolutely. I understand this.

My agreeing and identifying there is a problem there (with Muslims migrating to non-muslim countries and refusing to respect the host country's culture, refusing to intigrate, and attempting to bully their way to Islamic law); is not the equivelent of my advocating violence against these migrant Muslims.

But ultimately it is a problem that requires attention and a workable (hopefully peaceful) solution.

It's simply identifying there is a problem.

By the same token, I don't believe you can just sit back and let it continue to progress and evolve into what could ultimately become a very dangerous and violent situation. At some point these Muslims need to be he held accountable and responsible (in a hopefully mature, respectful, rational and peaceful manner) for their actions and their refusal to respect the cultures and laws of their host country.

But from the videos I have seen, from the accounts of my family and friends in the UK and Europe; mature, respectfull, rational and peaceful does not appear to be a manner in which many of these Muslims are willing to approach the situation and issues at hand.

Again, at some point these particular Muslims need to be held accountable for their own behavior. As opposed to people just glossing over it, redirecting or making excuses for their behavior.

The essential underlying problem as I see it is that the Muslim way of life is based on diametrically opposed ways of processing life than our typical western ways. The Muslim way seems to be based on emotional processes and in the western world, we prioritize logic as King. the problem here is that both sides are imbalanced and henceforth are going to act out this imbalance on a wide scale, to the great detriment of many for what looks to me like years to come.

What concerns me is when we walk around with ego issues of separation. When we want to have others act differently, and respect what we do. And we want to hold them accountable to our thought/belief standards. As long as we justify this, we continue our part in the imbalance. It is what it is, and will play out with negative consequences for many years.

As callen suggests, the only way out of the imbalanced cycles is to hold ourselves to high standards, irrespective of what others do, knowing then that we are not co-creating this imbalance. The only way beyond the ego to peace, is to go beyond ideas of separation. Integration and harmony is created by going to a place of unity, beyond separation.

OutOfBreath · April 2008

NMyTree wrote:

I was not generalizing Muslims as a whole, nor was I crucifying them. I was speaking in terms of the Muslims who are doing this and the fact Muslims/Islam's' history is as filled with the actions I mentioned, as any other religion/culture.

You decided to interpret it in that way. . I refuse to place ridiculous disclaimers before every sentence (or a "Not All Muslims" disclaimer after every instance where I use the word "Muslim"), when it's so blatantly obvious I'm speaking in terms of the Muslims who are behaving in this manner and the Muslims who took part in the history of violence and oppression.

I clearly stated............

Muslims have as much a history of oppression, invading, intimidating, bullying and perpetrating aggressive violence upon others (including infidels); for the purpose of spreading their culture (Islam), as anyone else has. You call that "crucifying" them? When it's clear I'm simply stating they are no better, no worse than anyone else?

OK. I'm sorry I misread you.
That is how the kooks arguing for the grand muslim conspiracy talk, and I projected that usage into what you said. But you seemed to agree with bigdvs sweeping generalizations.

Peace
Dan

About the muslims overrunning Europe

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