But that's not at all the subject matter at hand. This is not a discussion of Infidels attacking Muslims on their own land, in their own countries. This is a discussion/subject matter of migrating Muslims who go to other non-muslim countries and try to intimidate and bully those countries into Islamic law, while shunning, disrespecting and ignoring the cultures and laws of their host countries.
I do get tired of Muslims (and others) painting Muslims as some innocent bystanders who always get attacked or killed by other bullies; through no fault or action of their own.
Muslims have as much a history of oppression, invading, intimidating, bullying and perpetrating aggressive violence upon others (including infidels); for the purpose of spreading their culture (Islam), as anyone else has. And it is no secret Islam has been and continues to be used in a very intrusive, oppressive and discriminatory manner all over the world.
So let's stop talking like Muslims are poor, little lambs minding their own business.
What American foriegn policy, sanctions and Military have done over the years has often (but not always) been absolutely wrong. No doubt.
Again, that's not the subject matter, here.
The problem with this post is the same as the authors mentioned originally are guilty of. "The Muslims" are one in everything. If you moderate these statements, I may not have as much of a problem with them. Some people attacking christianity these days walk into the same traps. One's perception of a group does not mean that that's how all members of a group are. One's perception of a religion, does not mean that's how the adherents view it
Dont get me wrong, personally I am no fan of any religion. And islam has it's issues of course. However I see no reason for crucifying muslims specifically as a group, or laying tons of suspicion upon them for no real reason other than they being a bit different in some ways.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
Seperate church and state. Islam works because of sharia law. Sharia law should be banned from being put into practice in any legal sense because it is a religious belief and not codified law (I would even go as far as to suggest that if any security threat is deemed all burqa are removed regardless). Sharia law exsists to prevent the kind of assimilation over a couple of generations that you hope will happen. With it Islam does not conform it stays as is until it has the numbers to take over. I don't think we live in a world where we can wait 40 years for the children born today to hopefully realize that they are europeans that happen to believe in Islam as opposed to Muslims. Maybe I am wrong.
Anything can be law that the society and it's rulers deem to be law. Religion have heavily influenced the laws in most countries. Also in the enlightened west. That they should be seperate, I agree. But there is no inherent conflict in uniting the two in principle, and they often are to greater or lesser degree.
Do you know what sharia really means to a muslim? Just about the same as if you were to ask a christian if the principles of the bible should be the foundation of society. So of course, truant muslims want sharia, a fair and just world ruled by the word and will of God. The concept of Sharia has a far deeper and really positive meaning than burqas.
And who's talking about waiting 40 years? The descendants born and raised in their new countries have come a long time ago. And like youth everywhere, they adapt to the society they live in, and emulate their new country much more than their immigrant parents.
Muslims are people as well. They are no more slaves to their culture or heritage than other people. They are just as much individuals, and just as much generally decent hard-working people as the rest of us. Which makes the demographics game meaningless.
By all means speak out against what you dont like or find just, but dont label big groups entirely and treat them as of one mind. Dont buy into what armchair theorists and sensationalist media whores say about these things.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
By "Fight" do you mean resist them and their intrusive and oppresive bullying?
I think you both know I certainly don't advocate/support the war in Iraq or any attack on anyone who is not actively aggressive in attacking us. Whether through military might or unreasoanble swooping sanctions.
But that's not at all the subject matter at hand. This is not a discussion of Infidels attacking Muslims on their own land, in their own countries. This is a discussion/subject matter of migrating Muslims who go to other non-muslim countries and try to intimidate and bully those countries into Islamic law, while shunning, disrespecting and ignoring the cultures and laws of their host countries.
I do get tired of Muslims (and others) painting Muslims as some innocent bystanders who always get attacked or killed by other bullies; through no fault or action of their own.
Muslims have as much a history of oppression, invading, intimidating, bullying and perpetrating aggressive violence upon others (including infidels); for the purpose of spreading their culture (Islam), as anyone else has. And it is no secret Islam has been and continues to be used in a very intrusive, oppressive and discriminatory manner all over the world.
So let's stop talking like Muslims are poor, little lambs minding their own business.
What American foriegn policy, sanctions and Military have done over the years has often (but not always) been absolutely wrong. No doubt.
Again, that's not the subject matter, here.
Generalities....all Muslims aren't bad....all Christians aren't bad....both have oppressed....It's HUMANS that suck.
All religions attempt to increase their flock of sheep.
The thread topic is a discussion of Muslims in Europe not assimilating with their neighbors.
There are fundamentalist Muslims that view western culture as evil and vile....just as fundamentalist Christians. So how do we lower these irrational thoughts (my perspective I know)? By demonstrating the Western Culture in one of peace and equality....not injustice and violence. We will achieve this through young adults...if they see that religious fundamentalists are kooky they will gravitate....guaranteed but not if we continue to call members of their religion evil...or "Axis of Evil". I mean wtf are they supposed to thing....put yourself in their shoes.......someone has to be the bigger man here.....suggest it be us.
Bush fkn sucks....sucks BAD. He fked us for many years....
I always advocate protecting one's boundaries. I advocate not accepting rape, killing, etc. from any individual from any culture/religion, etc. If someone wants to look down on me, that's their business. If someone wants to act disrespectful, that's also their business. If someone hopes to overtake my country and my culture with their own. They have the right to do as they choose and again that's their business until they cross a line and take invasive, boundary-crossing action. I do not have authority as thought/morality police.
Besides those fine lines, I have to let life processes proceed as they do naturally. I have to deal with my fears and concerns without using them as an excuse to justify projecting them onto others and using them as an excue for my own poor adaptation. Things do not always go down optimally, especially when cultures or opposing sides of a coin clash. I do fully recognize the power of choice, and that such a power creates the outcome, positively or negatively. I can choose between actions that perpetuate conflict and maladjustment, and between actions that move into resolution and integration. I choose the latter.
Absolutely. I understand this.
My agreeing and identifying there is a problem there (with Muslims migrating to non-muslim countries and refusing to respect the host country's culture, refusing to intigrate, and attempting to bully their way to Islamic law); is not the equivelent of my advocating violence against these migrant Muslims.
But ultimately it is a problem that requires attention and a workable (hopefully peaceful) solution.
It's simply identifying there is a problem.
By the same token, I don't believe you can just sit back and let it continue to progress and evolve into what could ultimately become a very dangerous and violent situation. At some point these Muslims need to be he held accountable and responsible (in a hopefully mature, respectful, rational and peaceful manner) for their actions and their refusal to respect the cultures and laws of their host country.
But from the videos I have seen, from the accounts of my family and friends in the UK and Europe; mature, respectfull, rational and peaceful does not appear to be a manner in which many of these Muslims are willing to approach the situation and issues at hand.
Again, at some point these particular Muslims need to be held accountable for their own behavior. As opposed to people just glossing over it, redirecting or making excuses for their behavior.
However I see no reason for crucifying muslims specifically as a group, or laying tons of suspicion upon them for no real reason other than they being a bit different in some ways.
Peace
Dan
I was not generalizing Muslims as a whole, nor was I crucifying them. I was speaking in terms of the Muslims who are doing this and the fact Muslims/Islam's' history is as filled with the actions I mentioned, as any other religion/culture.
You decided to interpret it in that way. . I refuse to place ridiculous disclaimers before every sentence (or a "Not All Muslims" disclaimer after every instance where I use the word "Muslim"), when it's so blatantly obvious I'm speaking in terms of the Muslims who are behaving in this manner and the Muslims who took part in the history of violence and oppression.
I clearly stated............
Muslims have as much a history of oppression, invading, intimidating, bullying and perpetrating aggressive violence upon others (including infidels); for the purpose of spreading their culture (Islam), as anyone else has. You call that "crucifying" them? When it's clear I'm simply stating they are no better, no worse than anyone else?
People suck when they become obsessed with or use religion as a tool to justify their greed or hate.
Same with money. Money and over-the-top....... extreme capitalism, is in my opinion, as bad as any religious extremist; no matter what God they pray to. They are all crappy human beings.
P.S. I didn't see you're smiley face because I didn't scroll up far enough.
My agreeing and identifying there is a problem there (with Muslims migrating to non-muslim countries and refusing to respect the host country's culture, refusing to intigrate, and attempting to bully their way to Islamic law); is not the equivelent of my advocating violence against these migrant Muslims.
But ultimately it is a problem that requires attention and a workable (hopefully peaceful) solution.
It's simply identifying there is a problem.
By the same token, I don't believe you can just sit back and let it continue to progress and evolve into what could ultimately become a very dangerous and violent situation. At some point these Muslims need to be he held accountable and responsible (in a hopefully mature, respectful, rational and peaceful manner) for their actions and their refusal to respect the cultures and laws of their host country.
But from the videos I have seen, from the accounts of my family and friends in the UK and Europe; mature, respectfull, rational and peaceful does not appear to be a manner in which many of these Muslims are willing to approach the situation and issues at hand.
Again, at some point these particular Muslims need to be held accountable for their own behavior. As opposed to people just glossing over it, redirecting or making excuses for their behavior.
The essential underlying problem as I see it is that the Muslim way of life is based on diametrically opposed ways of processing life than our typical western ways. The Muslim way seems to be based on emotional processes and in the western world, we prioritize logic as King. the problem here is that both sides are imbalanced and henceforth are going to act out this imbalance on a wide scale, to the great detriment of many for what looks to me like years to come.
What concerns me is when we walk around with ego issues of separation. When we want to have others act differently, and respect what we do. And we want to hold them accountable to our thought/belief standards. As long as we justify this, we continue our part in the imbalance. It is what it is, and will play out with negative consequences for many years.
As callen suggests, the only way out of the imbalanced cycles is to hold ourselves to high standards, irrespective of what others do, knowing then that we are not co-creating this imbalance. The only way beyond the ego to peace, is to go beyond ideas of separation. Integration and harmony is created by going to a place of unity, beyond separation.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I was not generalizing Muslims as a whole, nor was I crucifying them. I was speaking in terms of the Muslims who are doing this and the fact Muslims/Islam's' history is as filled with the actions I mentioned, as any other religion/culture.
You decided to interpret it in that way. . I refuse to place ridiculous disclaimers before every sentence (or a "Not All Muslims" disclaimer after every instance where I use the word "Muslim"), when it's so blatantly obvious I'm speaking in terms of the Muslims who are behaving in this manner and the Muslims who took part in the history of violence and oppression.
I clearly stated............
Muslims have as much a history of oppression, invading, intimidating, bullying and perpetrating aggressive violence upon others (including infidels); for the purpose of spreading their culture (Islam), as anyone else has. You call that "crucifying" them? When it's clear I'm simply stating they are no better, no worse than anyone else?
OK. I'm sorry I misread you.
That is how the kooks arguing for the grand muslim conspiracy talk, and I projected that usage into what you said. But you seemed to agree with bigdvs sweeping generalizations.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
The essential underlying problem as I see it is that the Muslim way of life is based on diametrically opposed ways of processing life than our typical western ways. The Muslim way seems to be based on emotional processes and in the western world, we prioritize logic as King. the problem here is that both sides are imbalanced and henceforth are going to act out this imbalance on a wide scale, to the great detriment of many for what looks to me like years to come.
What concerns me is when we walk around with ego issues of separation. When we want to have others act differently, and respect what we do. And we want to hold them accountable to our thought/belief standards. As long as we justify this, we continue our part in the imbalance. It is what it is, and will play out with negative consequences for many years.
As callen suggests, the only way out of the imbalanced cycles is to hold ourselves to high standards, irrespective of what others do, knowing then that we are not co-creating this imbalance. The only way beyond the ego to peace, is to go beyond ideas of separation. Integration and harmony is created by going to a place of unity, beyond separation.
Make no mistake Angelica, I don't believe that migrant Muslims should act like westerners or even adopt western customs (especially the Pop Culure of westerners.....ugh).
But I do believe they can compromise enough to follow the laws of their host country, respect other cultures (without disrespecting or discrminating aginst them because they are not Muslims) and retain the basic or dare I say...."fundamental" elements of their own culture.
You know me well enough to know I certainly don't want everyone walking around acting the same, talking the same, dressing the same and agreeing on everything....the same way. What a dull and horrific world that would be.
I beleive there is a happy and peaceful middle ground for both muslims and people of their host countrys; if both are willing to be rational, mature, fair and loving.......to acheive it.
As for your initial comments in that post, I agree with most of that.
Personally I think that logic you speak of for westerners often lies in money, finances, profit and capitalism. Which isn't excactly a good thing when it's extreme.
OK. I'm sorry I misread you.
That is how the kooks arguing for the grand muslim conspiracy talk, and I projected that usage into what you said. But you seemed to agree with bigdvs sweeping generalizations.
This is a subject that has fascinated me, perhaps moreso than the immigration of Latin Americans into the U.S., which has been in much greater numbers and mostly illegal. I take it that most folks from Muslim dominated counties who immigrate to Europe do so legally? Correct me if I'm wrong.
I recently read in Harper's Magazine that 120,000 Iraqis have been granted amnesty in Sweden. 3,775 have been granted amnesty in the U.S. The U.S. state department denies amnesty to any Iraqi that has paid any ransom to terrorist groups, which disqualifies a WHOLE LOT of Iraqis. I think this statistic alone proves the true intentions of the U.S. government.
I'm curious about what this means: "In reality, barely half a million of the country’s inhabitants have background from Muslim cultures". Because does that include children, born in Sweden, who have parents from Muslim cultures?
.
Correct, some 120 000 it is. They say that we, a country of 9 million citizens, recieve about half of all the Iraqi refugees outside of the muslim world every year. Americans should be ashamed of themselves and their country. You went in and totally raped a country leaving hundreds of thousands dead (and you complain about your petty 4000 MIAs) due to the invasion. A country left soiled in its own blood and oil. Religious cleansing and terrorist acts have become the everyday-life of Iraq. Millions have had to leave flee due to life-threatening situations.... If I was an american, I would ve asked the authorities: "Is it good for Iraqs sake if we pull out now?" Seems like nobody takes their best in account when they talk about a pullout... I for one, thnik that a pullout would result in more bloodbath and possibly, in the extent, a civil war.
But I do believe they can compromise enough to follow the laws of their host country, respect other cultures (without disrespecting or discrminating aginst them because they are not Muslims) and retain the basic or dare I say...."fundamental" elements of their own culture.
Like all of us, they can certainly be held to this. And like for all of us, they will continue to be human, and make mistakes. Also, change is very slow-moving at times, especially when people are blinded by thinking they are "right". They then will learn the hard way. And yet, learn they will...
You know me well enough to know I certainly don't want everyone walking around acting the same, talking the same, dressing the same and agreeing on everything....the same way. What a dull and horrific world that would be.
Yes I do know this about you.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
Comments
Dont get me wrong, personally I am no fan of any religion. And islam has it's issues of course. However I see no reason for crucifying muslims specifically as a group, or laying tons of suspicion upon them for no real reason other than they being a bit different in some ways.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
Do you know what sharia really means to a muslim? Just about the same as if you were to ask a christian if the principles of the bible should be the foundation of society. So of course, truant muslims want sharia, a fair and just world ruled by the word and will of God. The concept of Sharia has a far deeper and really positive meaning than burqas.
And who's talking about waiting 40 years? The descendants born and raised in their new countries have come a long time ago. And like youth everywhere, they adapt to the society they live in, and emulate their new country much more than their immigrant parents.
Muslims are people as well. They are no more slaves to their culture or heritage than other people. They are just as much individuals, and just as much generally decent hard-working people as the rest of us. Which makes the demographics game meaningless.
By all means speak out against what you dont like or find just, but dont label big groups entirely and treat them as of one mind. Dont buy into what armchair theorists and sensationalist media whores say about these things.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
Generalities....all Muslims aren't bad....all Christians aren't bad....both have oppressed....It's HUMANS that suck.
All religions attempt to increase their flock of sheep.
The thread topic is a discussion of Muslims in Europe not assimilating with their neighbors.
There are fundamentalist Muslims that view western culture as evil and vile....just as fundamentalist Christians. So how do we lower these irrational thoughts (my perspective I know)? By demonstrating the Western Culture in one of peace and equality....not injustice and violence. We will achieve this through young adults...if they see that religious fundamentalists are kooky they will gravitate....guaranteed but not if we continue to call members of their religion evil...or "Axis of Evil". I mean wtf are they supposed to thing....put yourself in their shoes.......someone has to be the bigger man here.....suggest it be us.
Bush fkn sucks....sucks BAD. He fked us for many years....
Absolutely. I understand this.
My agreeing and identifying there is a problem there (with Muslims migrating to non-muslim countries and refusing to respect the host country's culture, refusing to intigrate, and attempting to bully their way to Islamic law); is not the equivelent of my advocating violence against these migrant Muslims.
But ultimately it is a problem that requires attention and a workable (hopefully peaceful) solution.
It's simply identifying there is a problem.
By the same token, I don't believe you can just sit back and let it continue to progress and evolve into what could ultimately become a very dangerous and violent situation. At some point these Muslims need to be he held accountable and responsible (in a hopefully mature, respectful, rational and peaceful manner) for their actions and their refusal to respect the cultures and laws of their host country.
But from the videos I have seen, from the accounts of my family and friends in the UK and Europe; mature, respectfull, rational and peaceful does not appear to be a manner in which many of these Muslims are willing to approach the situation and issues at hand.
Again, at some point these particular Muslims need to be held accountable for their own behavior. As opposed to people just glossing over it, redirecting or making excuses for their behavior.
I was not generalizing Muslims as a whole, nor was I crucifying them. I was speaking in terms of the Muslims who are doing this and the fact Muslims/Islam's' history is as filled with the actions I mentioned, as any other religion/culture.
You decided to interpret it in that way. . I refuse to place ridiculous disclaimers before every sentence (or a "Not All Muslims" disclaimer after every instance where I use the word "Muslim"), when it's so blatantly obvious I'm speaking in terms of the Muslims who are behaving in this manner and the Muslims who took part in the history of violence and oppression.
I clearly stated............
Muslims have as much a history of oppression, invading, intimidating, bullying and perpetrating aggressive violence upon others (including infidels); for the purpose of spreading their culture (Islam), as anyone else has. You call that "crucifying" them? When it's clear I'm simply stating they are no better, no worse than anyone else?
Oh for god's sake. You people are ridiculous. How many times do we have to run over the same old ground on this?
There were no generalities in my post. Only in the way you interpreted my post. Read my previous post (to this one).
Sheeesh.
Peace my freind...hell I even posted with smiley face.......:)
just the way I read your post....when you write Muslims I just assumed (wrongly) you meant all Muslims..
Believe me, you and I think more alike than differently.
Christians.....Catholics....the Pope.....The Catholic Church......Islam.......
People suck when they become obsessed with or use religion as a tool to justify their greed or hate.
Same with money. Money and over-the-top....... extreme capitalism, is in my opinion, as bad as any religious extremist; no matter what God they pray to. They are all crappy human beings.
P.S. I didn't see you're smiley face because I didn't scroll up far enough.
P.S. II Peace and Love to you
What concerns me is when we walk around with ego issues of separation. When we want to have others act differently, and respect what we do. And we want to hold them accountable to our thought/belief standards. As long as we justify this, we continue our part in the imbalance. It is what it is, and will play out with negative consequences for many years.
As callen suggests, the only way out of the imbalanced cycles is to hold ourselves to high standards, irrespective of what others do, knowing then that we are not co-creating this imbalance. The only way beyond the ego to peace, is to go beyond ideas of separation. Integration and harmony is created by going to a place of unity, beyond separation.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
That is how the kooks arguing for the grand muslim conspiracy talk, and I projected that usage into what you said. But you seemed to agree with bigdvs sweeping generalizations.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
Make no mistake Angelica, I don't believe that migrant Muslims should act like westerners or even adopt western customs (especially the Pop Culure of westerners.....ugh).
But I do believe they can compromise enough to follow the laws of their host country, respect other cultures (without disrespecting or discrminating aginst them because they are not Muslims) and retain the basic or dare I say...."fundamental" elements of their own culture.
You know me well enough to know I certainly don't want everyone walking around acting the same, talking the same, dressing the same and agreeing on everything....the same way. What a dull and horrific world that would be.
I beleive there is a happy and peaceful middle ground for both muslims and people of their host countrys; if both are willing to be rational, mature, fair and loving.......to acheive it.
As for your initial comments in that post, I agree with most of that.
Personally I think that logic you speak of for westerners often lies in money, finances, profit and capitalism. Which isn't excactly a good thing when it's extreme.
It's all good.
Peace and Love to you too, Dan.
Correct, some 120 000 it is. They say that we, a country of 9 million citizens, recieve about half of all the Iraqi refugees outside of the muslim world every year. Americans should be ashamed of themselves and their country. You went in and totally raped a country leaving hundreds of thousands dead (and you complain about your petty 4000 MIAs) due to the invasion. A country left soiled in its own blood and oil. Religious cleansing and terrorist acts have become the everyday-life of Iraq. Millions have had to leave flee due to life-threatening situations.... If I was an american, I would ve asked the authorities: "Is it good for Iraqs sake if we pull out now?" Seems like nobody takes their best in account when they talk about a pullout... I for one, thnik that a pullout would result in more bloodbath and possibly, in the extent, a civil war.
http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2007/05/10/2007-05-10_a_baghdad_plea_us_should_stay_and_fight.html
Yes, about 400 000-500 000 have BACKGROUND from muslim cultures. That includes alot of people who have fled the religious opression, like persians.
Yes I do know this about you.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!