Just the facts please.... Israel/Lebanon

24

Comments

  • binauralsounds
    binauralsounds Posts: 1,357
    mammasan wrote:
    I realize that this is an issue that has been ongoing for decades, but that still doesn't change the possible outcomes. Nothing good will come of further attacks on civilian (non-Hizbollah) targets in Lebanon or an attack on Syria. By doing so Israel would simply be adding more powder to a keg that is on the verge of exploding.

    I know that Israel is not the only party involved but they have to be the rational one's. We know that Syria and Iran will not so unfortunely for Israel it falls on their shoulders to be the better man.

    I can concur with a few of your points, however, to sit back and be the better man will do them absolutely no good, when an EVIL dictator resides over the state of Iran that wishes them wiped off the map and emphatically denies the holocaust ever took place, and the same guy that believes that he must destroy israel in order for the 12th imam to come!!!
  • Purple Hawk
    Purple Hawk Posts: 1,300
    mammasan wrote:
    I realize that this is an issue that has been ongoing for decades, but that still doesn't change the possible outcomes. Nothing good will come of further attacks on civilian (non-Hizbollah) targets in Lebanon or an attack on Syria. By doing so Israel would simply be adding more powder to a keg that is on the verge of exploding.

    I know that Israel is not the only party involved but they have to be the rational one's. We know that Syria and Iran will not so unfortunely for Israel it falls on their shoulders to be the better man.

    How is Israel not acting rational? Isn't it in one's self interest to maintain their right to exist? They are acting in an effort to achieve those ends so it appears to me, that they are completely rational. I won't comment on the "better man" point other than it's pretty embarrassing.
    And you ask me what I want this year
    And I try to make this kind and clear
    Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
    Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
    And desire and love and empty things
    Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
  • NMyTree
    NMyTree Posts: 2,374
    Commy wrote:
    http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/12/mideast/index.html
    http://www.examiner.com/a-161753~Israeli_Planes_Attack_3_Gazaa_Bridges.html



    What we know....

    Israel has been holding hundreds of Palestinian prisoners-including women and children, for many years.

    Hezbollah kidnapped 1 Israeli soldier-to use in a prisoner exchange.

    Israel then started a major offensive on Gaza, that has affected tens of thousands of residents, and they seem to be intesifying their assault.

    Israel has bombed at least 3 bridges in Gaza-very damaging to a very poor people.

    Israel has bombed the Palestinian Airport, a civilian target, grounding all aircraft.

    Israel has bombed the power supply for much of Gaza, leaving resident without electricity.

    Israel has killed at least 60 innocent civilians as of yesterday, and the palestinains are responsible for around 12 inncocent Israeli civilians.

    All of this has been done with tacit support from Washington, as well as with miltary hardware and intel.

    Then, I don't believe you know much.

    Right off the bat you are inaccurate in the number of soldiers Hezbollah kidnapped.

    And your version is barely the whole story or what really has been going on.

    I'm not trying to defend Israel, but you're rather biased in your perspective and quite misleading.

    But what else is to be expected from you.
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    binauralsounds wrote:
    I can concur with a few of your points, however, to sit back and be the better man will do them absolutely no good, when an EVIL dictator resides over the state of Iran that wishes them wiped off the map and emphatically denies the holocaust ever took place, and the same guy that believes that he must destroy israel in order for the 12th imam to come!!!

    You don't have to sit back, it's not one extreme or the other. Why do people think that if your not dropping bombs all over the place you are simply sitting back and doing nothing. The head of Iran, first off, is not a dictator he is an elected official. Secondly let him say what ever the hell he wants. His wish of wiping Israel of the map will never be realized, so let the little dog bark. He's like a Yorkie among Rottweilers trying to prove he's tough.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • OneLove
    OneLove Posts: 563
    Purple Hawk wrote:
    Again, I think you're missing the point. the fate of the two soldiers is inconsequential. It points to a more overarching theme of the recognition by Hezzbollah and Iran to their right to exist. This pussyfutting around the actual subject is great for theoretical debate, but let's leave that for those of us that are not attached to the real world.

    Just because someone dosn't hold the same beliefs as you do does not mean that they are missing the point, nor does it mean that they are not attached to the real world.


    You're obviously very passionate about your beliefs. Nothing wrong with that. We're not all going to convert eachother here, so if you are truely worried about what the "point" of this thread is, its about education, not bullying folks into supporting one side or the other.
  • binauralsounds
    binauralsounds Posts: 1,357
    mammasan wrote:
    You don't have to sit back, it's not one extreme or the other. Why do people think that if your not dropping bombs all over the place you are simply sitting back and doing nothing. The head of Iran, first off, is not a dictator he is an elected official. Secondly let him say what ever the hell he wants. His wish of wiping Israel of the map will never be realized, so let the little dog bark. He's like a Yorkie among Rottweilers trying to prove he's tough.

    Being "elected" in Iran is like the mass media saying Saddam won by a landslide in the the iraqi election. Secondly, This madman, and that is what he is, WILL wipe them off the map given time. He is simply a mad man
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    Purple Hawk wrote:
    How is Israel not acting rational? Isn't it in one's self interest to maintain their right to exist? They are acting in an effort to achieve those ends so it appears to me, that they are completely rational. I won't comment on the "better man" point other than it's pretty embarrassing.

    Embarrassing how. Please elaborate.

    As to your other point. Yes Israel has the right to exist and protect themselves from harm, but what harm has Lebanon done to them. If anything Lebanon has worked hard at being a good neighbor to Israel. They have expelled the Syrian army. They have voted out the pro-Syrian government for a more pro-western government. Yesthere are memebers of Hizbollah in their parliment and don't you think that attacking Beirut will not draw more people to their fold, give them more power.If anything Israel's attacks on Beirut has further endangered them.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    binauralsounds wrote:
    Being "elected" in Iran is like the mass media saying Saddam won by a landslide in the the iraqi election. Secondly, This madman, and that is what he is, WILL wipe them off the map given time. He is simply a mad man

    He will never wipe them off the map. He is a dog with all bark and no bite.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • NMyTree
    NMyTree Posts: 2,374
    There's no doubt in my mind Iran is mixed up in this, up to their eyeballs, in one way or another.

    Don't over look the possibility that this whole thing started because either one side or the other wants the United States Of America getting actively involved in this.

    Israel may wanted it for their own obvious reasons, and Hezbollah/Iran/Syria may want it, so they can further splinter the US and Coalition forces and also distract from maybe a larger plan they have cooked up.

    Or, it could just be the same 'ole shit over there, that never seems to end. The status quo of a bunch of fuckheads ( and I mean all of them from all sides) who can't get over themselves and the long, violent history of hatred and discrimination.

    Where's Louis Armstrong, when we need him the most....." I see skies of blue.......What a wonderful world "
  • binauralsounds
    binauralsounds Posts: 1,357
    mammasan wrote:
    He will never wipe them off the map. He is a dog with all bark and no bite.

    I whole heartedly disagree!!! I pray we will never have to find out!
  • Commy
    Commy Posts: 4,984
    NMyTree wrote:
    Then, I don't believe you know much.

    Right off the bat you are inaccurate in the number of soldiers Hezbollah kidnapped.

    And your version is barely the whole story or what really has been going on.

    I'm not trying to defend Israel, but you're rather biased in your perspective and quite misleading.

    But what else is to be expected from you.


    All of these things happened....it was a chronological listing of events, in a way, though I didn't mention that Hezbollah has taken a more prisoners of war since the intial attack.

    But you're last line-most of your post actually-leaves me scratching my head...especially given the thread title.
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    binauralsounds wrote:
    I pray we will never have to find out!

    Well at least we can agree on that.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • Commy
    Commy Posts: 4,984
    Purple Hawk wrote:
    How is Israel not acting rational? Isn't it in one's self interest to maintain their right to exist? They are acting in an effort to achieve those ends so it appears to me, that they are completely rational. I won't comment on the "better man" point other than it's pretty embarrassing.


    How is waging war with one of the most modern miltary forces in the world on some very poor and opressed palestinains rational? What logic is there in that move, if not to conquer and control?
  • PaperPlates
    PaperPlates Posts: 1,745
    mammasan wrote:
    I realize that this is an issue that has been ongoing for decades, but that still doesn't change the possible outcomes. Nothing good will come of further attacks on civilian (non-Hizbollah) targets in Lebanon or an attack on Syria. By doing so Israel would simply be adding more powder to a keg that is on the verge of exploding.

    I know that Israel is not the only party involved but they have to be the rational one's. We know that Syria and Iran will not so unfortunely for Israel it falls on their shoulders to be the better man.

    This isnt tiddlywinks. Its not an arument over a girl. There is no "being the bigger man" here.Thats for playground arguments. Unless you mean the one with the bigger guns. Since you acknowledge that neither Syria, nor Iran can or will be "the rational ones"...what is Israel to do? Should they reason with unreasonable men? Should they try to use logic on illogical men? Should they debate with men who refuse debate? Should they???? How exactly do you negotiate or debate or get anywhere with irrational nations???
    Why go home

    www.myspace.com/jensvad
  • Commy
    Commy Posts: 4,984
    PaperPlates wrote:
    This isnt tiddlywinks. Its not an arument over a girl. There is no "being the bigger man" here.Thats for playground arguments. Unless you mean the one with the bigger guns. Since you acknowledge that neither Syria, nor Iran can or will be "the rational ones"...what is Israel to do? Should they reason with unreasonable men? Should they try to use logic on illogical men? Should they debate with men who refuse debate? Should they???? How exactly do you negotiate or debate or get anywhere with irrational nations???


    Bias aside....How would they know? They haven't even tried.
  • PaperPlates
    PaperPlates Posts: 1,745
    Commy wrote:
    Bias aside....How would they know? They haven't even tried.


    Bias aside.................can you give a small fraction of an answer? How do you negotiate with madmen? How do you reason with unreasonable men?

    And wasn't leaving Gaza a pretty good attempt at placating them? Worked out well so far hasnt it. Next you'll say if we ever find Bin Laden, we should just talk, and not rile up the animals in Al Queda. Sigh.
    Why go home

    www.myspace.com/jensvad
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    PaperPlates wrote:
    This isnt tiddlywinks. Its not an arument over a girl. There is no "being the bigger man" here.Thats for playground arguments. Unless you mean the one with the bigger guns. Since you acknowledge that neither Syria, nor Iran can or will be "the rational ones"...what is Israel to do? Should they reason with unreasonable men? Should they try to use logic on illogical men? Should they debate with men who refuse debate? Should they???? How exactly do you negotiate or debate or get anywhere with irrational nations???

    Shit it's not about a girl. Here I thought this was about Hassan Nasrallah passing love notes to Olmert's girlfriend in study hall. Thanks for clueing me in on the severity of the situation.

    I don't really know how to negotiate with irrational leaders, but I do know that escalating this military conflict is not the answer.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • NMyTree
    NMyTree Posts: 2,374
    Commy wrote:
    All of these things happened....it was a chronological listing of events, in a way, though I didn't mention that Hezbollah has taken a more prisoners of war since the intial attack.

    But you're last line-most of your post actually-leaves me scratching my head...especially given the thread title.


    Simply, it was inaccurate and heavily tipped against Israel. You made it a point to tip the scales and make Israel out to be the sole villans in all this.

    My last line?

    You're not an objective person. You're posts routinely tip in one direction...and one direction only. You hardly ever point out fault any where else but the US and Israel. You're really no different than Miller, except, you tip the scales to the opposite side.

    The problems in the Middle East have been going on for so very long. All parties are guilty of ......everything. What started this recent eruption of violence was not started just this week. You'd have to be sadly short-sighted, ill-informed or simply biased to believe so.

    Whether you believe me or not, I'm really not trying to get personal or insult you. I'm speaking of your posting habits and the content of your posts.

    I just wanted it all to end. I'm sick of this Middle East crap and all the men, women and children being killed, from all sides.

    But I know that all sides involved here have been clawing and biting at each other, for quite some time. They 've been chipping away and throwing jabs. Finally, the boxers started throwing haymakers.

    Pointing fingers and taking sides is what they want us to do. They want us to get ourselves all riled up.

    We need to keep our eyes open and pay attention, because the next few days and the next two weeks will be important. Especailly, we need to keep an eye on our slimey administration and what they are doing, during this time. Those weasels are likely to try and pull one past us.
  • OneLove
    OneLove Posts: 563
    Loved the last paragraph of that post. To be honest, I haven't been around long enough to judge anyone, but I do think if we all keep a level head we may actually learn something new. Even if we don't agree, maybe we'll atleast understand things in a new light.
  • SundaySilence
    SundaySilence Posts: 537
    Purple Hawk wrote:
    How is Israel not acting rational? Isn't it in one's self interest to maintain their right to exist? They are acting in an effort to achieve those ends so it appears to me, that they are completely rational. I won't comment on the "better man" point other than it's pretty embarrassing.

    Israel does have a right to defend its borders. But it is difficult for an impartial observer to differentiate between Hezbollah attacks on Israeli border towns, and Israeli warplanes damaging residential buildings in the country of a nominally sympathetic regime. Both kill women and children.

    Israeli leadership (and most of the neo-cons) behaves as if and actually seems to believe that the ultimate purpose of terrorism is some form of millitary conquest. Were a terrorist grouping be capable of holding ground it would not be terrorist.

    The goal of terrorism is to provoke overreaction against the moderate base. This radicalizes the moderates until moderate becomes the minority. External forces become alienated or even hostile to the dominant power.

    The slaughter of noncombatants leads the surviving friends and family to take up jihad against the west/Israel. The terror equation is simple: for every westerner/jew killed, ten non-combatant arabs are killed. Their families become at best sympathizers, at worst jihadis ready to kill more westerners and the cycle begins anew. In addition, the wider muslim world sees the atrocities commited against its own side and a steady pool of recruits begins to flow from the wider world. While we are thinking in terms of months, they are thinking in decades.

    This process is increasing exponentially throughout the Islamic world.

    What is really needed is people who actually know how to fight terrorism: to be tough on terrorism and also tough on the underlying causes of terrorism.

Categories