Just the facts please.... Israel/Lebanon
OneLove
Posts: 563
Ok folks, lets try to put our personal opinions aside for a moment.
For those of us interested in reading up on the subject, could anyone provide some resources on the net that are reasonably unbiased?
Perhaps we can all learn something new here. Personally, most of what I know I learned watching American news. I can see giant holes in their "truth", as with most subjects.
I have to admit, I feel like a stupid American right now. I'd rather learn as much as I can then spout off my personal feelings, as I sit comfortably on my couch here in the US. Seems like to easy a place to be sitting and making grandeous statements about what should be done or not done.
For those of us interested in reading up on the subject, could anyone provide some resources on the net that are reasonably unbiased?
Perhaps we can all learn something new here. Personally, most of what I know I learned watching American news. I can see giant holes in their "truth", as with most subjects.
I have to admit, I feel like a stupid American right now. I'd rather learn as much as I can then spout off my personal feelings, as I sit comfortably on my couch here in the US. Seems like to easy a place to be sitting and making grandeous statements about what should be done or not done.
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http://www.examiner.com/a-161753~Israeli_Planes_Attack_3_Gazaa_Bridges.html
What we know....
Israel has been holding hundreds of Palestinian prisoners-including women and children, for many years.
Hezbollah kidnapped 1 Israeli soldier-to use in a prisoner exchange.
Israel then started a major offensive on Gaza, that has affected tens of thousands of residents, and they seem to be intesifying their assault.
Israel has bombed at least 3 bridges in Gaza-very damaging to a very poor people.
Israel has bombed the Palestinian Airport, a civilian target, grounding all aircraft.
Israel has bombed the power supply for much of Gaza, leaving resident without electricity.
Israel has killed at least 60 innocent civilians as of yesterday, and the palestinains are responsible for around 12 inncocent Israeli civilians.
All of this has been done with tacit support from Washington, as well as with miltary hardware and intel.
I'd check out the history channel, type in Israel in the search engine. I think it's pretty unbiased.
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Are you saying the US has some part in all this?
To tell you the truth, I don't think they (or we) are going far enough. Domascous is target #1.
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
"The U.S. gives Israel $5 billion annually. This amount includes $1.2 billion in economic aid, $1.8 billion in military aid and $2 billion in federal loan guarantees. Taking these numbers into consideration, U.S. foreign aid to Israel is the largest sum of money given to a country, and amounts to 30 percent of the total U.S. foreign aid budget."
A word from Washington could end this war. The United States owns Israel...its basically a US base in the middle east.
You are kidding right??? Soldiers get taken hostage by militants that infiltrate the border and threaten to send them to Iran who wants Israel wiped off the map, and you say they should have just used diplomacy??? What has diplomacy gotten them?? They withdrew from Gazza only to have missles launched from where they withdrew, their soldiers taken hostage, and then hezbollah takin more hostages on another front! DIPLOMACY?? I beg to DIFFER!!!!
And the whole notion of more fire power arguement is ridiculous!! So, they are attacked, and because the have more technology and firepower they should just talk and try to reason with evil?
sorry, not goin to happen and glad it DID NOT!!
Yes, I'm mortified to see "INNOCENT" civilians killed in ANY conflict/war but unfortunately this thing happens in war. In addition, these militants hide BEHIND civilians, taking refuge in civilian homes and mosques. What is Israel to do???
Exactly what they have done!!!
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0714/dailyUpdate.html
Like they did in 1967? When they killed over 50 families, including 70 old men praying in a mosque? Like that time, when over 1000 people were massacred? You would prefer another one of those?
Why?
What will Israel accomplish by attacking Demascus, or to a lesser extant further incursions in Lebanon?
Will that put an end to Hizbollah?
Will that get them the two soldiers back?
Will it make Israel safe from terrorism?
I pretty sure the answer to the last three questions is no. The only outcome will be innocent lives lost and destroyed and further escalation of violence in the region.
It's obvious violence cannot be averted. Reality sucks sometimes...but it IS reality.
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
So, I know I said I wasn't going to state my opinions.. I am seriously having to hold my tongue here.
To think that the US is not in a position to have some positive influence here shows a lack of basic understanding of the nature of the relationships between the US and Israel.
Ooops, there I went.
Give Revelations a try! Deep read, but all the answers lie within.
That's where you are wrong, violence can always be averted. Unfortunetly violence is sometimes necessary to reach a desired end, the defeat of Nazi Germany for example. In this case Israel's desired end would be the destruction of Hizbollah and the return of the two soldiers. Both of which will not be achieved by bombing the shit out of Beirut and/or Demascus. The only accomplishment would be further hatred toward Israel and escalating violence which has the potential of engulfing the entire region.
Let us not forget this goes FAR beyond the events of the last week!
Again, I think you're missing the point. the fate of the two soldiers is inconsequential. It points to a more overarching theme of the recognition by Hezzbollah and Iran to their right to exist. This pussyfutting around the actual subject is great for theoretical debate, but let's leave that for those of us that are not attached to the real world.
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
I realize that this is an issue that has been ongoing for decades, but that still doesn't change the possible outcomes. Nothing good will come of further attacks on civilian (non-Hizbollah) targets in Lebanon or an attack on Syria. By doing so Israel would simply be adding more powder to a keg that is on the verge of exploding.
I know that Israel is not the only party involved but they have to be the rational one's. We know that Syria and Iran will not so unfortunely for Israel it falls on their shoulders to be the better man.
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But how is pushing the region into war going to prove anything. Iran and Hizbollah will never recognize Israel's right to exist. Will causing thousands, if not millions of deaths, if all out war breaks out not a sufficient enough reason to pull back on the reigns. Military force is not the answer to this problem. These people have been killing each other for 40 years. Someone attacks Israel,Israel attacks back. It should be pretty damn obviouse by now that force and violence aren't working. Being that we are dealing with fanatics on one side and a state government on the other I believe it is up to the more reasonable state government to take the higher road on this.
I can concur with a few of your points, however, to sit back and be the better man will do them absolutely no good, when an EVIL dictator resides over the state of Iran that wishes them wiped off the map and emphatically denies the holocaust ever took place, and the same guy that believes that he must destroy israel in order for the 12th imam to come!!!
How is Israel not acting rational? Isn't it in one's self interest to maintain their right to exist? They are acting in an effort to achieve those ends so it appears to me, that they are completely rational. I won't comment on the "better man" point other than it's pretty embarrassing.
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
And desire and love and empty things
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Then, I don't believe you know much.
Right off the bat you are inaccurate in the number of soldiers Hezbollah kidnapped.
And your version is barely the whole story or what really has been going on.
I'm not trying to defend Israel, but you're rather biased in your perspective and quite misleading.
But what else is to be expected from you.
You don't have to sit back, it's not one extreme or the other. Why do people think that if your not dropping bombs all over the place you are simply sitting back and doing nothing. The head of Iran, first off, is not a dictator he is an elected official. Secondly let him say what ever the hell he wants. His wish of wiping Israel of the map will never be realized, so let the little dog bark. He's like a Yorkie among Rottweilers trying to prove he's tough.
Just because someone dosn't hold the same beliefs as you do does not mean that they are missing the point, nor does it mean that they are not attached to the real world.
You're obviously very passionate about your beliefs. Nothing wrong with that. We're not all going to convert eachother here, so if you are truely worried about what the "point" of this thread is, its about education, not bullying folks into supporting one side or the other.
Being "elected" in Iran is like the mass media saying Saddam won by a landslide in the the iraqi election. Secondly, This madman, and that is what he is, WILL wipe them off the map given time. He is simply a mad man
Embarrassing how. Please elaborate.
As to your other point. Yes Israel has the right to exist and protect themselves from harm, but what harm has Lebanon done to them. If anything Lebanon has worked hard at being a good neighbor to Israel. They have expelled the Syrian army. They have voted out the pro-Syrian government for a more pro-western government. Yesthere are memebers of Hizbollah in their parliment and don't you think that attacking Beirut will not draw more people to their fold, give them more power.If anything Israel's attacks on Beirut has further endangered them.
He will never wipe them off the map. He is a dog with all bark and no bite.
Don't over look the possibility that this whole thing started because either one side or the other wants the United States Of America getting actively involved in this.
Israel may wanted it for their own obvious reasons, and Hezbollah/Iran/Syria may want it, so they can further splinter the US and Coalition forces and also distract from maybe a larger plan they have cooked up.
Or, it could just be the same 'ole shit over there, that never seems to end. The status quo of a bunch of fuckheads ( and I mean all of them from all sides) who can't get over themselves and the long, violent history of hatred and discrimination.
Where's Louis Armstrong, when we need him the most....." I see skies of blue.......What a wonderful world "
I whole heartedly disagree!!! I pray we will never have to find out!