Honesty About Iraq

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  • Vedderlution_Baby
    Vedderlution_Baby Posts: 2,535
    bootlegger10 wrote:
    The American people, like you, cannot stomach a war. The loss of soldiers' lives in Iraq (while each is important) does not even come close to prior wars. Fighting terrorists is important, because you are not going to be able to talk to these Muslim fanatics. They are in Iraq now, and we need to keep fighting them there and elsewhere. But, Americans like you do not have the stomach for it, and the insurgents and Al Qaeda are using you like puppets. There are areas in Iraq that are improving, and terrorist attacks are down 90%, but you will NEVER hear that in the news, and the terrorists know this.



    You know why we have such a problem "stomaching war". Because it's becoming more and more clear that we were taken advantage of, manipulated, and lied too. So, we're losing lives in a war that created with misinformation and manipulation. I think a lot of people have vietnam pop into their head when looking at the current situation. A war started with information that was inaccurate and paranoid. A supposedly "cake walk". A war that lasted a lot longer than it was supposed to. Maybe we caught on faster this time.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    BUSH-lager wrote:
    You don't think that's the objective? Just because they are trained to kill (which is completely necessary) doesn't mean they are there solely to kill people.

    They are trying to stabilize a democratic state in the MidEast, regardless of whether or not they fully appreciate the meaning of it. That's not their job. Their job is to provide security so that the greater objective can be reached. They follow orders. It doesn't matter if they know, or even agree with the ends, they provide the means, because that's the oath they've sworn to live by.

    Personally, If I was given the job of introducing democracy to a country, I wouldn't send in an army of trained killers. I'd send in a bunch of academics and intellectuals. But then, I'm a bit weird.
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    I would like to know where bootlegger10 got this 90% number from. Most information coming from Iraq is that our surge has made little head way into decreasing the amount of attacks or deaths in Iraq. Maybe in the Kurdish region the attacks are down significantly, but then again that region was never a hotbed for insurgent or jihadist activity.

    The truth of the matter is that you cannot combat terrorism using conventional military force and our foreign policy also has to drastically change. As long as we continue to interfere in Arab affairs we will continue to fuel the hatred towards us. We talk about spreading democracy in the Middle East, but in the next breath we offer support to countries like Pakistan and Saudi Arabia who oppress their own people and help fuel the jihadist machine.

    Iraq is a prime example of how our interference has only created more hatred towards us. So yes we are fighting terrorists over in Iraq but only because they came after us there not because they where there in the first place.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • Bu$chlager
    Bu$chlager Posts: 500
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Personally, If I was given the job of introducing democracy to a country, I wouldn't send in an army of trained killers. I'd send in a bunch of academics and intellectuals. But then, I'm a bit weird.

    That will work brilliantly in a theorhetical world. Unfortunately, this is not theory, it's reality. It wouldn't be wierd, it'd be assinine.

    Again, I'm not trying to sound pro-war. Just making my case for why we are staying there, and how to get out.

    And while I don't know for certain, I'd bet all the money in my pockets that we have sent many an intellectual over there along with the military to make attempts at infastructure, gov't establishment, constitution/law writing, etc.

    And one more thing. I'd be careful about writing off our military as merely trained killers. Some of these people are brilliant in their own right. I don't know if you meant to denegrate their service, but it kinda came off that way.
  • blackredyellow
    blackredyellow Posts: 5,889
    mammasan wrote:
    I would like to know where bootlegger10 got this 90% number from.

    Yeah, I think it's one of those stats taken out of context.
    bootlegger10 wrote:
    ....There are areas in Iraq that are improving, and terrorist attacks are down 90%, blah blah blah.....

    More than likely the attacks are down in the areas that we have a heavy presence and curfews in place... the problem is like that the rest of the last 4 years, as soon as we scale back or move on to another area, the violence starts right back up. It's like a giant game of whack-a-mole.
    My whole life
    was like a picture
    of a sunny day
    “We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
    ― Abraham Lincoln
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    blackredyellow wrote:
    Yeah, I think it's one of those stats taken out of context.



    More than likely the attacks are down in the areas that we have a heavy presence and curfews in place... the problem is like that the rest of the last 4 years, as soon as we scale back or move on to another area, the violence starts right back up. It's like a giant game of whack-a-mole.

    The whole surge proposal would only work if the Iraqi military and police force would be able to hold to areas after we cleared them. The US military is doing it's part by entering neighborhoods and clearing them. the problem is that the Iraqis aren't holding up their end of the deal and as soon as US forces move onto the next zone the insurgents, militias, and jihadists return.

    If the Iraqis aren't willing to do what is necessary to stabilize their country why should we continue to sacrifice our troops to do so.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • blackredyellow
    blackredyellow Posts: 5,889
    mammasan wrote:
    If the Iraqis aren't willing to do what is necessary to stabilize their country why should we continue to sacrifice our troops to do so.

    Totally agree... the Iraqis have failed both politically and militarily to help themselves (assuming that they really want a democratic type gov't). Granted, it's asking a lot for a brand new political system that we installed to take over a country in a short time, but they have shown overwhelmingly that they aren't even improving or really even trying that hard.
    My whole life
    was like a picture
    of a sunny day
    “We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
    ― Abraham Lincoln
  • Specifics
    Specifics Posts: 417
    NCfan wrote:
    Honesty About Iraq
    How are we doing?
    by Victor Davis Hanson
    National Review Online

    The United States can usually win even postmodern wars abroad if it can play to its strengths — which are marshaling our enormous material, intelligence, and technological advantages to defeat the enemy before he inflicts enough casualties to convince an affluent and comfortable public at home that such losses are simply not worth the envisioned aims.


    ©2007 Victor Davis Hanson

    Ok, what are the envisioned aims? tell me that i tell you if the rest is anymore than horse shit.
  • Specifics
    Specifics Posts: 417
    mammasan wrote:
    If the Iraqis aren't willing to do what is necessary to stabilize their country why should we continue to sacrifice our troops to do so.

    Maybe because the troops aren't there to stabilize the country
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    LikeAnOcean wrote:
    Fighting terrorism is also essentially fueling more terrorism, so now we are fucking ourselves over double. I bet there's 10x more potential terrorists now than before we invaded Iraq.

    I'm not necessarily anti-war, I'm just using common sense how about people work given the case of terrorism.

    Here's how we fight terrorism. Too funny!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahO35pMOzSI
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde

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