I would argue then that the key objective would be to make ourselves independent of oil. Then the war will end. We'll have no reason to promote democracy there, (see Darfur).
Promote democracy there? Is that what our military is doing? Promoting democracy? I'd be surprised to find that many soldiers - i.e, trained killers - even know what the word 'democracy' means.
Too many people on this thread speak as if 9/11 was year zero and occurred out of a vacuum of history.
You think the U.S was innocent prior to 9/11? You think that the 10 years of sanctions in Iraq which caused over 1 million child deaths, or the 100% unconditional support for Israel weren't seen by people in that region as provocative?
Too many people on this thread speak as if 9/11 was year zero and occurred out of a vacuum of history.
You think the U.S was innocent prior to 9/11? You think that the 10 years of sanctions in Iraq which caused over 1 million child deaths, or the 100% unconditional support for Israel weren't seen by people in that region as provocative?
yeah but.....
this is the response i get when i try to put the events of 9/11 into perspective for people. people who generally know next to nothing of history and know nothing of what the United States has gotten up to around the world in the name of who knows what. i never try to justify 9/11 because simply there is no justification. the majority of people don't want to understand cause then they might have to look at themselves and their governments and realise what failures they are.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Promote democracy there? Is that what our military is doing? Promoting democracy? I'd be surprised to find that many soldiers - i.e, trained killers - even know what the word 'democracy' means.
...
Something I hear from Iraq War veterans... The irony of Iraq is that the soldiers who are 'Spreading Democracy' in Iraq... do not get to experience Democracy. They can't vote and decide to stay in the Green Zone and play in the swimming pools. They are told what to do, when to do it and how long they have to do it.
...
And the the ones who prepare for and fight in Wars are the ones who pray the hardest for peace.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
There's a little black spot on the sun today....the same old one as yesterdeey....
Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
Too many people on this thread speak as if 9/11 was year zero and occurred out of a vacuum of history.
You think the U.S was innocent prior to 9/11? You think that the 10 years of sanctions in Iraq which caused over 1 million child deaths, or the 100% unconditional support for Israel weren't seen by people in that region as provocative?
...
I believe that Americans who use September 11th, 2001 as justification for occupation of Iraq are doing a great dishonor to the dead. Don't use their names to justify more killing.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Promote democracy there? Is that what our military is doing? Promoting democracy? I'd be surprised to find that many soldiers - i.e, trained killers - even know what the word 'democracy' means.
You don't think that's the objective? Just because they are trained to kill (which is completely necessary) doesn't mean they are there solely to kill people.
They are trying to stabilize a democratic state in the MidEast, regardless of whether or not they fully appreciate the meaning of it. That's not their job. Their job is to provide security so that the greater objective can be reached. They follow orders. It doesn't matter if they know, or even agree with the ends, they provide the means, because that's the oath they've sworn to live by.
Fighting terrorism is also essentially fueling more terrorism, so now we are fucking ourselves over double. I bet there's 10x more potential terrorists now than before we invaded Iraq.
I'm not necessarily anti-war, I'm just using common sense how about people work given the case of terrorism.
You gotta read my other post. I'm not promoting the military/nation building aspect of the war on terror. I think the real way we "Stay on the offensive" is to rid ourselves of the crutch that is oil, and keep up intelligence tactics that have stopped dozens of terror plots since 9/11.
You gotta read my other post. I'm not promoting the military/nation building aspect of the war on terror. I think the real way we "Stay on the offensive" is to rid ourselves of the crutch that is oil, and keep up intelligence tactics that have stopped dozens of terror plots since 9/11.
While it may seem good that the authorities have the means to fight off terrorism you have to draw the line somewhere. Because you cannot know if in a few years your meeting up with pj fans to listen to their last album will not be considered "preparation for a terror plot".
There might actually be other ways to elude terrorism.
While it may seem good that the authorities have the means to fight off terrorism you have to draw the line somewhere. Because you cannot know if in a few years your meeting up with pj fans to listen to their last album will not be considered "preparation for a terror plot".
There might actually be other ways to elude terrorism.
I understand the civil liberties arguement, but it's still the best road to take in my opinion. I don't know what the "other ways" are. I'm not for trying to "understand" fanatics, or sympathize with their complaints about our society, etc. And I'm not for radically adjusting the American way of life.
I'm also not for sacrificing American lives on an endless trail, which is what we're dealing with. The military front is not succeeding, because as the original article in this thread states;
"...in the gruesome equation cast the American engineers into the role of the incompetent or sinister by their failure to repair and rebuild faster than an illiterate can destroy."
These people are savages. They are animalistic in their crude disregard for life. They'll blow up anything and everything, which is why no matter how much we outnumber them, they will be able to cause a climate of chaos. But we're forced to stay there because we need what that region has to offer. Eliminate that, and you eliminate our presence.
Then, you keep up the intelligence tactics, renew the Pat. Act, keep law enforcement (from Homeland Security down to the town cop) talking, and you have a much better solution than boots & blood in the mud.
I think most liberal minded people would settle with the compromise of having to keep a close watch on the gov't reaching too far with its surveilance, in exchange for an end to our military presence in Iraq.
I do appreciate that threat as well, don't get me wrong. I'm not writing off that concern as liberal paranoia, I just think that's a bridge I'm willing to cross down the road. First thing's first. Right now I want to get everybody home, while maintaining security and America's way of life.
The American people, like you, cannot stomach a war. The loss of soldiers' lives in Iraq (while each is important) does not even come close to prior wars. Fighting terrorists is important, because you are not going to be able to talk to these Muslim fanatics. They are in Iraq now, and we need to keep fighting them there and elsewhere. But, Americans like you do not have the stomach for it, and the insurgents and Al Qaeda are using you like puppets. There are areas in Iraq that are improving, and terrorist attacks are down 90%, but you will NEVER hear that in the news, and the terrorists know this.
You know why we have such a problem "stomaching war". Because it's becoming more and more clear that we were taken advantage of, manipulated, and lied too. So, we're losing lives in a war that created with misinformation and manipulation. I think a lot of people have vietnam pop into their head when looking at the current situation. A war started with information that was inaccurate and paranoid. A supposedly "cake walk". A war that lasted a lot longer than it was supposed to. Maybe we caught on faster this time.
You don't think that's the objective? Just because they are trained to kill (which is completely necessary) doesn't mean they are there solely to kill people.
They are trying to stabilize a democratic state in the MidEast, regardless of whether or not they fully appreciate the meaning of it. That's not their job. Their job is to provide security so that the greater objective can be reached. They follow orders. It doesn't matter if they know, or even agree with the ends, they provide the means, because that's the oath they've sworn to live by.
Personally, If I was given the job of introducing democracy to a country, I wouldn't send in an army of trained killers. I'd send in a bunch of academics and intellectuals. But then, I'm a bit weird.
I would like to know where bootlegger10 got this 90% number from. Most information coming from Iraq is that our surge has made little head way into decreasing the amount of attacks or deaths in Iraq. Maybe in the Kurdish region the attacks are down significantly, but then again that region was never a hotbed for insurgent or jihadist activity.
The truth of the matter is that you cannot combat terrorism using conventional military force and our foreign policy also has to drastically change. As long as we continue to interfere in Arab affairs we will continue to fuel the hatred towards us. We talk about spreading democracy in the Middle East, but in the next breath we offer support to countries like Pakistan and Saudi Arabia who oppress their own people and help fuel the jihadist machine.
Iraq is a prime example of how our interference has only created more hatred towards us. So yes we are fighting terrorists over in Iraq but only because they came after us there not because they where there in the first place.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
Personally, If I was given the job of introducing democracy to a country, I wouldn't send in an army of trained killers. I'd send in a bunch of academics and intellectuals. But then, I'm a bit weird.
That will work brilliantly in a theorhetical world. Unfortunately, this is not theory, it's reality. It wouldn't be wierd, it'd be assinine.
Again, I'm not trying to sound pro-war. Just making my case for why we are staying there, and how to get out.
And while I don't know for certain, I'd bet all the money in my pockets that we have sent many an intellectual over there along with the military to make attempts at infastructure, gov't establishment, constitution/law writing, etc.
And one more thing. I'd be careful about writing off our military as merely trained killers. Some of these people are brilliant in their own right. I don't know if you meant to denegrate their service, but it kinda came off that way.
....There are areas in Iraq that are improving, and terrorist attacks are down 90%, blah blah blah.....
More than likely the attacks are down in the areas that we have a heavy presence and curfews in place... the problem is like that the rest of the last 4 years, as soon as we scale back or move on to another area, the violence starts right back up. It's like a giant game of whack-a-mole.
My whole life
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
Yeah, I think it's one of those stats taken out of context.
More than likely the attacks are down in the areas that we have a heavy presence and curfews in place... the problem is like that the rest of the last 4 years, as soon as we scale back or move on to another area, the violence starts right back up. It's like a giant game of whack-a-mole.
The whole surge proposal would only work if the Iraqi military and police force would be able to hold to areas after we cleared them. The US military is doing it's part by entering neighborhoods and clearing them. the problem is that the Iraqis aren't holding up their end of the deal and as soon as US forces move onto the next zone the insurgents, militias, and jihadists return.
If the Iraqis aren't willing to do what is necessary to stabilize their country why should we continue to sacrifice our troops to do so.
"When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
If the Iraqis aren't willing to do what is necessary to stabilize their country why should we continue to sacrifice our troops to do so.
Totally agree... the Iraqis have failed both politically and militarily to help themselves (assuming that they really want a democratic type gov't). Granted, it's asking a lot for a brand new political system that we installed to take over a country in a short time, but they have shown overwhelmingly that they aren't even improving or really even trying that hard.
My whole life
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
Honesty About Iraq
How are we doing?
by Victor Davis Hanson
National Review Online
The United States can usually win even postmodern wars abroad if it can play to its strengths — which are marshaling our enormous material, intelligence, and technological advantages to defeat the enemy before he inflicts enough casualties to convince an affluent and comfortable public at home that such losses are simply not worth the envisioned aims.
Fighting terrorism is also essentially fueling more terrorism, so now we are fucking ourselves over double. I bet there's 10x more potential terrorists now than before we invaded Iraq.
I'm not necessarily anti-war, I'm just using common sense how about people work given the case of terrorism.
Comments
Promote democracy there? Is that what our military is doing? Promoting democracy? I'd be surprised to find that many soldiers - i.e, trained killers - even know what the word 'democracy' means.
You think the U.S was innocent prior to 9/11? You think that the 10 years of sanctions in Iraq which caused over 1 million child deaths, or the 100% unconditional support for Israel weren't seen by people in that region as provocative?
yeah but.....
this is the response i get when i try to put the events of 9/11 into perspective for people. people who generally know next to nothing of history and know nothing of what the United States has gotten up to around the world in the name of who knows what. i never try to justify 9/11 because simply there is no justification. the majority of people don't want to understand cause then they might have to look at themselves and their governments and realise what failures they are.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Something I hear from Iraq War veterans... The irony of Iraq is that the soldiers who are 'Spreading Democracy' in Iraq... do not get to experience Democracy. They can't vote and decide to stay in the Green Zone and play in the swimming pools. They are told what to do, when to do it and how long they have to do it.
...
And the the ones who prepare for and fight in Wars are the ones who pray the hardest for peace.
Hail, Hail!!!
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg
(\__/)
( o.O)
(")_(")
I believe that Americans who use September 11th, 2001 as justification for occupation of Iraq are doing a great dishonor to the dead. Don't use their names to justify more killing.
Hail, Hail!!!
You don't think that's the objective? Just because they are trained to kill (which is completely necessary) doesn't mean they are there solely to kill people.
They are trying to stabilize a democratic state in the MidEast, regardless of whether or not they fully appreciate the meaning of it. That's not their job. Their job is to provide security so that the greater objective can be reached. They follow orders. It doesn't matter if they know, or even agree with the ends, they provide the means, because that's the oath they've sworn to live by.
You gotta read my other post. I'm not promoting the military/nation building aspect of the war on terror. I think the real way we "Stay on the offensive" is to rid ourselves of the crutch that is oil, and keep up intelligence tactics that have stopped dozens of terror plots since 9/11.
While it may seem good that the authorities have the means to fight off terrorism you have to draw the line somewhere. Because you cannot know if in a few years your meeting up with pj fans to listen to their last album will not be considered "preparation for a terror plot".
There might actually be other ways to elude terrorism.
I understand the civil liberties arguement, but it's still the best road to take in my opinion. I don't know what the "other ways" are. I'm not for trying to "understand" fanatics, or sympathize with their complaints about our society, etc. And I'm not for radically adjusting the American way of life.
I'm also not for sacrificing American lives on an endless trail, which is what we're dealing with. The military front is not succeeding, because as the original article in this thread states;
"...in the gruesome equation cast the American engineers into the role of the incompetent or sinister by their failure to repair and rebuild faster than an illiterate can destroy."
These people are savages. They are animalistic in their crude disregard for life. They'll blow up anything and everything, which is why no matter how much we outnumber them, they will be able to cause a climate of chaos. But we're forced to stay there because we need what that region has to offer. Eliminate that, and you eliminate our presence.
Then, you keep up the intelligence tactics, renew the Pat. Act, keep law enforcement (from Homeland Security down to the town cop) talking, and you have a much better solution than boots & blood in the mud.
I think most liberal minded people would settle with the compromise of having to keep a close watch on the gov't reaching too far with its surveilance, in exchange for an end to our military presence in Iraq.
I do appreciate that threat as well, don't get me wrong. I'm not writing off that concern as liberal paranoia, I just think that's a bridge I'm willing to cross down the road. First thing's first. Right now I want to get everybody home, while maintaining security and America's way of life.
You know why we have such a problem "stomaching war". Because it's becoming more and more clear that we were taken advantage of, manipulated, and lied too. So, we're losing lives in a war that created with misinformation and manipulation. I think a lot of people have vietnam pop into their head when looking at the current situation. A war started with information that was inaccurate and paranoid. A supposedly "cake walk". A war that lasted a lot longer than it was supposed to. Maybe we caught on faster this time.
Personally, If I was given the job of introducing democracy to a country, I wouldn't send in an army of trained killers. I'd send in a bunch of academics and intellectuals. But then, I'm a bit weird.
The truth of the matter is that you cannot combat terrorism using conventional military force and our foreign policy also has to drastically change. As long as we continue to interfere in Arab affairs we will continue to fuel the hatred towards us. We talk about spreading democracy in the Middle East, but in the next breath we offer support to countries like Pakistan and Saudi Arabia who oppress their own people and help fuel the jihadist machine.
Iraq is a prime example of how our interference has only created more hatred towards us. So yes we are fighting terrorists over in Iraq but only because they came after us there not because they where there in the first place.
That will work brilliantly in a theorhetical world. Unfortunately, this is not theory, it's reality. It wouldn't be wierd, it'd be assinine.
Again, I'm not trying to sound pro-war. Just making my case for why we are staying there, and how to get out.
And while I don't know for certain, I'd bet all the money in my pockets that we have sent many an intellectual over there along with the military to make attempts at infastructure, gov't establishment, constitution/law writing, etc.
And one more thing. I'd be careful about writing off our military as merely trained killers. Some of these people are brilliant in their own right. I don't know if you meant to denegrate their service, but it kinda came off that way.
Yeah, I think it's one of those stats taken out of context.
More than likely the attacks are down in the areas that we have a heavy presence and curfews in place... the problem is like that the rest of the last 4 years, as soon as we scale back or move on to another area, the violence starts right back up. It's like a giant game of whack-a-mole.
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
The whole surge proposal would only work if the Iraqi military and police force would be able to hold to areas after we cleared them. The US military is doing it's part by entering neighborhoods and clearing them. the problem is that the Iraqis aren't holding up their end of the deal and as soon as US forces move onto the next zone the insurgents, militias, and jihadists return.
If the Iraqis aren't willing to do what is necessary to stabilize their country why should we continue to sacrifice our troops to do so.
Totally agree... the Iraqis have failed both politically and militarily to help themselves (assuming that they really want a democratic type gov't). Granted, it's asking a lot for a brand new political system that we installed to take over a country in a short time, but they have shown overwhelmingly that they aren't even improving or really even trying that hard.
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
Ok, what are the envisioned aims? tell me that i tell you if the rest is anymore than horse shit.
Maybe because the troops aren't there to stabilize the country
Here's how we fight terrorism. Too funny!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahO35pMOzSI
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
-Oscar Wilde