Obama: Pro-Slavery. ::cough:: I Mean "Compulsory Volunteerism" ?? WTF ??

FiveB247x · July 2008

Angelica, I think you're stating what has worked for you in particular and your view of a human becoming educated compared to many who are questioning the educational system and how to rectify some issues within in. Two separate things. We all know the educational system we have has tons of flaws, etc, we're now asking how do we fix them or what can we adjust? Some have said to completely get rid of it. Others aren't for that. Where do you stand on this matter? It's obviously you're not for the system we have now, and in a perfect world, we could just wish up something completely different... but in reality, we have to transform what we have now into something better. So with that said, what are your ideas for that?

angelica wrote:

Who said anything about aspiring to be a 'scholar'?

Actually, knowing is knowing. External education is something different.

The dictionary provides numerous definitions of "education".

From what you understand apparently.

I mean for example that Plato's view is continues to stand. As does Aristotle's. As do many other widely accepted schools of thought. Criticism cannot effectively negate such base views over time.

Its Evolution Baby · July 2008

jeffbr wrote:

I'm glad I read this. For most of this thread I would have sworn you didn't understand what would happen without compulsory education. In this post you sum up precisely what would happen.

I appreciate your support but I've been speaking in favor of Compulsory Educatin the entire time.

I don't think kids have the knowledge and life experience to make a decision to not go to school. I assume most kids go through phases where they don't want to go to school, I know I did. And it was my Mom's job to tell me to stop whining and get dressed. And I did.

If my Mom said thats fine don't go to school, I wouldn't have gone and I would say my life would have been adversely affected.

farfromglorified · July 2008

Its Evolution Baby wrote:

I appreciate your support but I've been speaking in favor of Compulsory Educatin the entire time.

I don't think kids have the knowledge and life experience to make a decision to not go to school. I assume most kids go through phases where they don't want to go to school, I know I did. And it was my Mom's job to tell me to stop whining and get dressed. And I did.

If my Mom said thats fine don't go to school, I wouldn't have gone and I would say my life would have been adversely affected.

Are you in favor of a law that says that children must listen to their mothers? Are do you find such a law unnecessary and potentially dangerous?

angelica · July 2008

FiveB247x wrote:

Angelica, I think you're stating what has worked for you in particular and your view of a human becoming educated compared to many who are questioning the educational system and how to rectify some issues within in. Two separate things. We all know the educational system we have has tons of flaws, etc, we're now asking how do we fix them or what can we adjust? Some have said to completely get rid of it. Others aren't for that. Where do you stand on this matter? It's obviously you're not for the system we have now, and in a perfect world, we could just wish up something completely different... but in reality, we have to transform what we have now into something better. So with that said, what are your ideas for that?

Where I stand on the matter of fixing the system: The system is naturally self-adjusting through natural evolution. We are all unwitting pawns of this self-adjustment, being intimately interconnected with nature. Most people are unaware of how they are evolving beyond their awareness and one-dimensional goals.

What I'm saying is that everything is perfect and as it should be. Any theoretical ideas of improvement, disconnected from the natural life principles all around us further provide for us challenging/difficult life experience to learn how not to do this. Therefore, I AM for the system we have now, because it's evolved exactly as is for exacting purposes that I'm not privy to. edit: and because it's always perfectly self-correcting, despite our opinions about it.

Its Evolution Baby · July 2008

farfromglorified wrote:

Are you in favor of a law that says that children must listen to their mothers? Are do you find such a law unnecessary and potentially dangerous?

No I think kids should say F U bitch and slap there Mom's in the face.

jeffbr · July 2008

Its Evolution Baby wrote:

I appreciate your support but I've been speaking in favor of Compulsory Educatin the entire time.

I don't think kids have the knowledge and life experience to make a decision to not go to school. I assume most kids go through phases where they don't want to go to school, I know I did. And it was my Mom's job to tell me to stop whining and get dressed. And I did.

If my Mom said thats fine don't go to school, I wouldn't have gone and I would say my life would have been adversely affected.

Right, maybe we're talking past each other. In this thread, when talking about compulsory education, I've been under the assumtion that we're talking about government mandated education. Without that government mandate, parents would still have the ability to compell a child to attend school. So if there wasn't compulsory education in this country, it sounds like your mom would have done the right thing, and you'd still have attended a school and received an education. I haven't read posts from anyone here suggesting that children should be free to chose their own destiny. It takes lots of care and direction for a child to become a successful adult.

farfromglorified · July 2008

Its Evolution Baby wrote:

No I think kids should say F U bitch and slap there Mom's in the face.

Do you understand that no such law existed when you listened to your mother?

lgt · July 2008

angelica wrote:

Who said anything about aspiring to be a 'scholar'?

Actually, knowing is knowing. External education is something different.

The dictionary provides numerous definitions of "education".

From what you understand apparently.

I mean for example that Plato's view is continues to stand. As does Aristotle's. As do many other widely accepted schools of thought. Criticism cannot effectively negate such base views over time.

Etimologically education is from Latin "educare" which means to extract from within, bring out from within. That's why the expression of self-education is meaningless. Knowledge is considered to be inside the human being (e.g Socrates) but you need tools to bring it out - which is what education provides, and scholars are learned, erudite people: the most educated.

Which is your definition of education then?

Care to give me examples of philosophers claiming Truths? I am also open to continuous learning.

Not all Plato's views continue to stand - well, apart from the term "academia"!

But yes, not in politics - he abhorred democracy, for instance, although some of his other ideas have been embraced by totalitarian regimes.

Also, Aristotle's cosmology has been dead and buried for a while now,(Science has proved the Earth moves) even though it was believed valid for over 1000 years.

This is just to show you that what was once considered to be valid (logically presented) has been confronted by others and proved wrong, or in other cases confirmed right (Aristotle's rhetoric, for example). This is the progress of knowledge enabled by education.

So my whole point is that education is by definition external-looking because of the confrontation and validation of your own ideas - extracted from within yourself with education - with those of others. This exchange is essential.

Otherwise, anyone can claim whatever thoughts come into their heads to be the Truth.

lgt · July 2008

farfromglorified wrote:

Oh my god! No!!!!!

Yes. For instance, when America was largely agricultural (and societies today that are primarily agricultural), many children did not go to school because they could play an economic role within the household or because parents simply cannot afford to send them.

Exactly my point before - return to the Middle Ages.

Why would that be good for the kids to be only considered as potential child labour? Aren't they free agents as well while in the care of their parents? They have rights too.

farfromglorified wrote:

The vast majority, similar to today.

Would you envisage an incentive to send kids to schools given that you eliminate compulsion?

Otherwise, why would poor families send their kids to learn? It would be against their own self-interest right? Like it's been for centuries before.

farfromglorified wrote:

There has always been a strong movement for controlling education by dogmatic bodies, including the church. During the Middle Ages, the churches already had a large monopoly on education. Martin Luther pushed for one of the first modern system of compulsory education and realized it in Germany who instituted a Lutheran compulsory system in the 16th Century.

The spread of education threatens and challenges dominant ideology and dogma, whatever that would be. That's in the nature of education and intellectual pursuits.

Actually, Luther also translated the Bible from Latin to German so that it could be understood by the many, since Latin became the preserve of the few educated of the Middle Ages.

Luther was originally part of the Catholic Church but with this act he brought on the Reformation and caused huge problems for the Church. He himself helped break the dogma of the day by spreading education.

Can you not see the benefits of universal education?

farfromglorified wrote:

Corporations pay billions in education taxes. Furthermore, corporations were among the primary proponents of compulsory education laws in the hopes of getting better trained workforces.

What do you mean by education taxes? Specific to corporations and for education? I thought education is funded by the taxes of all citizens. Is it something peculiar to the American system?

farfromglorified wrote:

Are you kidding? You have mountains of state-imposed curricula. Now, one may thankfully avoid this via the private or home school system, but to suggest that the state does not impose lines of thought upon the education system is a bit of a stretch.

So what line of thought is imposed in American public schools? Is it individual capitalism or socialism or.... what is the dogmatic thought now imposed by the state/government?

Its Evolution Baby · July 2008

farfromglorified wrote:

Do you understand that no such law existed when you listened to your mother?

Yes because I was raised right and had a Mom who I respected enough to listen to.

What about kids who don't have parents to rely on? I think Compulsory education exists mainly for these types of situations.

In a Utopian society all kids would choose to go to school and the ones that didn't would have parents that would make sure that they received some sort of education.

Unfortunately we live in a society where not all parents are fit to run there own lives let alone raise kids and in those cases not all kids will choose to go to school. That is why the law is in place and I agree with it.

angelica · July 2008

lgt wrote:

Etimologically education is from Latin "educare" which means to extract from within, bring out from within. ... Knowledge is considered to be inside the human being (e.g Socrates) but you need tools to bring it out - which is what education provides,...
Which is your definition of education then?

The above, as I've stated in this thread and in others in the past. Some people like to think this can only be done through formal and coerced means.

Care to give me examples of philosophers claiming Truths? I am also open to continuous learning.

I'm not interested in a debate of Truths.

Not all Plato's views continue to stand - well, apart from the term "academia"! But yes, not in politics - he abhorred democracy, for instance, although some of his other ideas have been embraced by totalitarian regimes.

I'm not referring to what is accepted by academia. I am referring to Truths standing as they are as principles academia hopes to understand and convey.

Also, Aristotle's cosmology has been dead and buried for a while now,(Science has proved the Earth moves) even though it was believed valid for over 1000 years.

Remember, I talk about what has withstood the test of time and is classic, not that which falls by the wayside. Also, details and symbols used to conceptualize Truths are not the Truths themselves.

This is just to show you that what was once considered to be valid (logically presented) has been confronted by others and proved wrong, or in other cases confirmed right (Aristotle's rhetoric, for example). This is the progress of knowledge enabled by education.

Knowledge to me is knowing. When someone is taught something externally, and personally has no experience in it, that is information in my mind. It's not knowing. Therefore logical concepts that fall away because they were invalid are not also truths that were known by individuals. They were distortions in understanding.

So my whole point is that education is by definition external-looking because of the confrontation and validation of your own ideas - extracted from within yourself with education - with those of others. This exchange is essential.

I have no issue with an exchange. My entire views depend on holism, which entails "as within, so without". My self education always included external education. That is not to say formal education.

Otherwise, anyone can claim whatever thoughts come into their heads to be the Truth.

Anyone can......

my2hands · July 2008

farfromglorified wrote:

Do you understand that no such law existed when you listened to your mother?

yes it does... it is called "Imperilling family relations" in the state of delaware... the parent can go to family court and file the charge

my2hands · July 2008

you guys have gone 13 pages discussing a bullshit biased op ed piece

no wonder i have been staying out of the MT

angelica · July 2008

my2hands wrote:

you guys have gone 13 pages discussing a bullshit biased op ed piece

no wonder i have been staying out of the MT

It's obvious that you have no comprehension of what we've been discusssing.

my2hands · July 2008

angelica wrote:

It's obvious that you have no comprehension of what we've been discusssing.

thanks for assuming, but you're wrong

comprehension is not the problem. i have no interest in reading what has been discussed, thats the problem. the title of the thread says "obama is pro-slavery" and it has gone 14 pages

but thanks for assuming i have comprehension problems. i went to school, thank you. i went to college, thank you. i did quite well in school, thank you. i work for a living and communicate profesionaly daily, thank you. so i think i can comprehend just fine, thank you.

angelica · July 2008

my2hands wrote:

thanks for assuming, but your wrong

comprehensionis not the problem. i have no interest in reading what has been discussed.

but thanks for assuming i have comprehension problems. i went to school, thank you. i went to college, thank you. i did quite well in school, thank you. i work for a living and communicate profesionaly daily, thank you. so i think i can comprehend just fine, thank you.

You stated inaccurately what we've been doing for 13 pages. And then you tacked your observation of your false judgment onto that. It's independant of what's really going on. And now you admit you had no interest in reading (and subsequently understanding) what you comment on. hmmm...

slightofjeff · July 2008

jeffbr wrote:

Right, maybe we're talking past each other. In this thread, when talking about compulsory education, I've been under the assumtion that we're talking about government mandated education. Without that government mandate, parents would still have the ability to compell a child to attend school. So if there wasn't compulsory education in this country, it sounds like your mom would have done the right thing, and you'd still have attended a school and received an education. I haven't read posts from anyone here suggesting that children should be free to chose their own destiny. It takes lots of care and direction for a child to become a successful adult.

But let's say the parent is a complete and total fuck-up. And there are plenty of them out there. They don't care what the kid does, as long as the kid doesn't interrupt your soap operas.

If education is non-compulsory, these kids are not going to go to school. And their parents sure as hell aren't going to teach them at home. These kids grow up to be less than equal members of society, really through no fault of their own. They aren't old enough to realize the consequences of not getting a proper education.

Want to take away the laws that make schooling compulsory? Fine.
Let's take away all laws governing how parents treat their children.

Beat the hell out of your kids, parents. Leave them in a hot car on a 100-degree day without so much as a window cracked. Child abuse is now totally legal. Who is the government to tell you how to raise your children?

my2hands · July 2008

angelica wrote:

You stated inaccurately what we've been doing for 13 pages. And then you tacked your observation of your false judgment onto that. It's independant of what's really going on. And now you admit you had no interest in reading (and subsequently understanding) what you comment on. hmmm...

i havent seen anything 13 pages long on the MT worth reading in months

slightofjeff · July 2008

my2hands wrote:

thanks for assuming, but you're wrong

comprehension is not the problem. i have no interest in reading what has been discussed, thats the problem. the title of the thread says "obama is pro-slavery" and it has gone 14 pages

.

The thread took a dramatic shift at about Page 4. I think your post here is the first one with the word "Obama" in it for about 10 pages.

slightofjeff · July 2008

my2hands wrote:

i havent seen anything 13 pages long on the MT worth reading in months

so why are you posting on this one then? You thought we were busting on your guy Obama, so you had to blindly rush to his defense, eh?

Obama: Pro-Slavery. ::cough:: I Mean "Compulsory Volunteerism" ?? WTF ??

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