Just the facts please.... Israel/Lebanon

OneLove
OneLove Posts: 563
edited July 2006 in A Moving Train
Ok folks, lets try to put our personal opinions aside for a moment.

For those of us interested in reading up on the subject, could anyone provide some resources on the net that are reasonably unbiased?

Perhaps we can all learn something new here. Personally, most of what I know I learned watching American news. I can see giant holes in their "truth", as with most subjects.

I have to admit, I feel like a stupid American right now. I'd rather learn as much as I can then spout off my personal feelings, as I sit comfortably on my couch here in the US. Seems like to easy a place to be sitting and making grandeous statements about what should be done or not done.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • Commy
    Commy Posts: 4,984
    http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/12/mideast/index.html
    http://www.examiner.com/a-161753~Israeli_Planes_Attack_3_Gazaa_Bridges.html



    What we know....

    Israel has been holding hundreds of Palestinian prisoners-including women and children, for many years.

    Hezbollah kidnapped 1 Israeli soldier-to use in a prisoner exchange.

    Israel then started a major offensive on Gaza, that has affected tens of thousands of residents, and they seem to be intesifying their assault.

    Israel has bombed at least 3 bridges in Gaza-very damaging to a very poor people.

    Israel has bombed the Palestinian Airport, a civilian target, grounding all aircraft.

    Israel has bombed the power supply for much of Gaza, leaving resident without electricity.

    Israel has killed at least 60 innocent civilians as of yesterday, and the palestinains are responsible for around 12 inncocent Israeli civilians.

    All of this has been done with tacit support from Washington, as well as with miltary hardware and intel.
  • Purple Hawk
    Purple Hawk Posts: 1,300
    OneLove wrote:
    Ok folks, lets try to put our personal opinions aside for a moment.

    For those of us interested in reading up on the subject, could anyone provide some resources on the net that are reasonably unbiased?

    Perhaps we can all learn something new here. Personally, most of what I know I learned watching American news. I can see giant holes in their "truth", as with most subjects.

    I have to admit, I feel like a stupid American right now. I'd rather learn as much as I can then spout off my personal feelings, as I sit comfortably on my couch here in the US. Seems like to easy a place to be sitting and making grandeous statements about what should be done or not done.

    I'd check out the history channel, type in Israel in the search engine. I think it's pretty unbiased.
    And you ask me what I want this year
    And I try to make this kind and clear
    Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
    Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
    And desire and love and empty things
    Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
  • DMITCH8080
    DMITCH8080 Posts: 18
    Isreal attacked 1st to get 2 soliders back!!!! Thats all you need to know....It's silly that for the last 3 days they have been bombing the shit out every little thing they can think of to free just 2 soliders....Wasn't Jon McCain a POW for like 15 years(off topic)? Anyway, Isreal has way more fire power and they could have been civil and just used diplomacy to prevent this crazy ass chaos!!!
  • DMITCH8080
    DMITCH8080 Posts: 18
    Commy wrote:
    http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/12/mideast/index.html
    http://www.examiner.com/a-161753~Israeli_Planes_Attack_3_Gazaa_Bridges.html



    All of this has been done with tacit support from Washington, as well as with miltary hardware and intel.


    Are you saying the US has some part in all this?
  • Purple Hawk
    Purple Hawk Posts: 1,300
    Commy wrote:
    http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/12/mideast/index.html
    http://www.examiner.com/a-161753~Israeli_Planes_Attack_3_Gazaa_Bridges.html



    What we know....

    Israel has been holding hundreds of Palestinian prisoners-including women and children, for many years.

    Hezbollah kidnapped 1 Israeli soldier-to use in a prisoner exchange.

    Israel then started a major offensive on Gaza, that has affected tens of thousands of residents, and they seem to be intesifying their assault.

    Israel has bombed at least 3 bridges in Gaza-very damaging to a very poor people.

    Israel has bombed the Palestinian Airport, a civilian target, grounding all aircraft.

    Israel has bombed the power supply for much of Gaza, leaving resident without electricity.

    Israel has killed at least 60 innocent civilians as of yesterday, and the palestinains are responsible for around 12 inncocent Israeli civilians.

    All of this has been done with tacit support from Washington, as well as with miltary hardware and intel.

    To tell you the truth, I don't think they (or we) are going far enough. Domascous is target #1.
    And you ask me what I want this year
    And I try to make this kind and clear
    Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
    Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
    And desire and love and empty things
    Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
  • Commy
    Commy Posts: 4,984
    DMITCH8080 wrote:
    Are you saying the US has some part in all this?
    http://www.svsu.edu/clubs/vanguard/stories/628

    "The U.S. gives Israel $5 billion annually. This amount includes $1.2 billion in economic aid, $1.8 billion in military aid and $2 billion in federal loan guarantees. Taking these numbers into consideration, U.S. foreign aid to Israel is the largest sum of money given to a country, and amounts to 30 percent of the total U.S. foreign aid budget."

    A word from Washington could end this war. The United States owns Israel...its basically a US base in the middle east.
  • binauralsounds
    binauralsounds Posts: 1,357
    DMITCH8080 wrote:
    Isreal attacked 1st to get 2 soliders back!!!! Thats all you need to know....It's silly that for the last 3 days they have been bombing the shit out every little thing they can think of to free just 2 soliders....Wasn't Jon McCain a POW for like 15 years(off topic)? Anyway, Isreal has way more fire power and they could have been civil and just used diplomacy to prevent this crazy ass chaos!!!

    You are kidding right??? Soldiers get taken hostage by militants that infiltrate the border and threaten to send them to Iran who wants Israel wiped off the map, and you say they should have just used diplomacy??? What has diplomacy gotten them?? They withdrew from Gazza only to have missles launched from where they withdrew, their soldiers taken hostage, and then hezbollah takin more hostages on another front! DIPLOMACY?? I beg to DIFFER!!!!

    And the whole notion of more fire power arguement is ridiculous!! So, they are attacked, and because the have more technology and firepower they should just talk and try to reason with evil?

    sorry, not goin to happen and glad it DID NOT!!

    Yes, I'm mortified to see "INNOCENT" civilians killed in ANY conflict/war but unfortunately this thing happens in war. In addition, these militants hide BEHIND civilians, taking refuge in civilian homes and mosques. What is Israel to do???

    Exactly what they have done!!!
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    The CS Monitor is probably as unbaised a news source as you can get.
    http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0714/dailyUpdate.html
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • Commy
    Commy Posts: 4,984
    Purple Hawk wrote:
    To tell you the truth, I don't think they (or we) are going far enough. Domascous is target #1.


    Like they did in 1967? When they killed over 50 families, including 70 old men praying in a mosque? Like that time, when over 1000 people were massacred? You would prefer another one of those?

    Why?
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    Purple Hawk wrote:
    To tell you the truth, I don't think they (or we) are going far enough. Domascous is target #1.


    What will Israel accomplish by attacking Demascus, or to a lesser extant further incursions in Lebanon?

    Will that put an end to Hizbollah?

    Will that get them the two soldiers back?

    Will it make Israel safe from terrorism?

    I pretty sure the answer to the last three questions is no. The only outcome will be innocent lives lost and destroyed and further escalation of violence in the region.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • binauralsounds
    binauralsounds Posts: 1,357
    If anyone cares, the end to this whole story can be found in REVELATIONS!
  • Purple Hawk
    Purple Hawk Posts: 1,300
    mammasan wrote:
    What will Israel accomplish by attacking Demascus, or to a lesser extant further incursions in Lebanon?

    Will that put an end to Hizbollah?

    Will that get them the two soldiers back?

    Will it make Israel safe from terrorism?

    I pretty sure the answer to the last three questions is no. The only outcome will be innocent lives lost and destroyed and further escalation of violence in the region.


    It's obvious violence cannot be averted. Reality sucks sometimes...but it IS reality.
    And you ask me what I want this year
    And I try to make this kind and clear
    Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
    Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
    And desire and love and empty things
    Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
  • OneLove
    OneLove Posts: 563
    Sincerest of thank you's to the folks who posted links.

    So, I know I said I wasn't going to state my opinions.. I am seriously having to hold my tongue here.

    To think that the US is not in a position to have some positive influence here shows a lack of basic understanding of the nature of the relationships between the US and Israel.

    Ooops, there I went.
  • binauralsounds
    binauralsounds Posts: 1,357
    OneLove wrote:
    Sincerest of thank you's to the folks who posted links.

    So, I know I said I wasn't going to state my opinions.. I am seriously having to hold my tongue here.

    To think that the US is not in a position to have some positive influence here shows a lack of basic understanding of the nature of the relationships between the US and Israel.

    Ooops, there I went.

    Give Revelations a try! Deep read, but all the answers lie within.
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    Purple Hawk wrote:
    It's obvious violence cannot be averted. Reality sucks sometimes...but it IS reality.

    That's where you are wrong, violence can always be averted. Unfortunetly violence is sometimes necessary to reach a desired end, the defeat of Nazi Germany for example. In this case Israel's desired end would be the destruction of Hizbollah and the return of the two soldiers. Both of which will not be achieved by bombing the shit out of Beirut and/or Demascus. The only accomplishment would be further hatred toward Israel and escalating violence which has the potential of engulfing the entire region.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • binauralsounds
    binauralsounds Posts: 1,357
    mammasan wrote:
    That's where you are wrong, violence can always be averted. Unfortunetly violence is sometimes necessary to reach a desired end, the defeat of Nazi Germany for example. In this case Israel's desired end would be the destruction of Hizbollah and the return of the two soldiers. Both of which will not be achieved by bombing the shit out of Beirut and/or Demascus. The only accomplishment would be further hatred toward Israel and escalating violence which has the potential of engulfing the entire region.

    Let us not forget this goes FAR beyond the events of the last week!
  • Purple Hawk
    Purple Hawk Posts: 1,300
    mammasan wrote:
    That's where you are wrong, violence can always be averted. Unfortunetly violence is sometimes necessary to reach a desired end, the defeat of Nazi Germany for example. In this case Israel's desired end would be the destruction of Hizbollah and the return of the two soldiers. Both of which will not be achieved by bombing the shit out of Beirut and/or Demascus. The only accomplishment would be further hatred toward Israel and escalating violence which has the potential of engulfing the entire region.

    Again, I think you're missing the point. the fate of the two soldiers is inconsequential. It points to a more overarching theme of the recognition by Hezzbollah and Iran to their right to exist. This pussyfutting around the actual subject is great for theoretical debate, but let's leave that for those of us that are not attached to the real world.
    And you ask me what I want this year
    And I try to make this kind and clear
    Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
    Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
    And desire and love and empty things
    Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    binauralsounds wrote:
    Let us not forget this goes FAR beyond the events of the last week!

    I realize that this is an issue that has been ongoing for decades, but that still doesn't change the possible outcomes. Nothing good will come of further attacks on civilian (non-Hizbollah) targets in Lebanon or an attack on Syria. By doing so Israel would simply be adding more powder to a keg that is on the verge of exploding.

    I know that Israel is not the only party involved but they have to be the rational one's. We know that Syria and Iran will not so unfortunely for Israel it falls on their shoulders to be the better man.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul
  • Rider
    Rider Posts: 129
    The Israeli's are some ruthless, hard ball playing bastards. They attacked the U.S.S. Liberty (yeah, it was OUR ship, didn't hear about that much did you) in order to make it look like it was the Egyptians in 1967. 208 American killed and wounded. Yet, we looked the other way and continue to prop them up as they steal more land and bully their neighbors. Strange friendship.

    Learn more- http://www.ussliberty.org/
    We all walk the Long Road...

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  • mammasan
    mammasan Posts: 5,656
    Purple Hawk wrote:
    Again, I think you're missing the point. the fate of the two soldiers is inconsequential. It points to a more overarching theme of the recognition by Hezzbollah and Iran to their right to exist. This pussyfutting around the actual subject is great for theoretical debate, but let's leave that for those of us that are not attached to the real world.

    But how is pushing the region into war going to prove anything. Iran and Hizbollah will never recognize Israel's right to exist. Will causing thousands, if not millions of deaths, if all out war breaks out not a sufficient enough reason to pull back on the reigns. Military force is not the answer to this problem. These people have been killing each other for 40 years. Someone attacks Israel,Israel attacks back. It should be pretty damn obviouse by now that force and violence aren't working. Being that we are dealing with fanatics on one side and a state government on the other I believe it is up to the more reasonable state government to take the higher road on this.
    "When one gets in bed with government, one must expect the diseases it spreads." - Ron Paul

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