calling all athiests...

sponger · August 2007

Truth is the most powerful force in the universe. If it wasn't, then so many people wouldn't be afraid of it. I think even the most devout worshippers of deities fear truth even more than they fear that which they overtly worship.

It's absurd that practitioners of faith take it upon themselves to lecture me about life and morality when they probably can't go a single day without telling a lie of some kind.

I have yet to see any spiritual doctrine that covers why it's important to refrain from dishonesty other than that it's against the will of god. A few months back I was watching Pat Robertson answer a viewer question about why it's important to tell the truth. His explanation was that if you don't tell the truth, then other people will not be able to trust you, and you are therefore no longer be a person of your word. He goes on to say, "It's important that people can rely on you to be a person who is true to his word."

By that rationale, it's OK to lie as long as people don't find out about it. It's an obviously shallow and extrinsic stance on the importance of truthfulness. For those of you who are unfamiliar with maslow, extrinsic motivations are those that are derived from outside influences, not from within. They're considered to be low on the scale of personal development.

I admit that I lie sometimes. I do it for job and financial security. I wish I didn't have to, but I really do see it as the only way to survive right now. I think that if I had the opportunity to be honest all of the time for an extended period of time, I would be free to develop a heightened sense of awareness that no religion could even come close to rivaling.

That's one of the main reasons why I enjoy message boards. I can be honest here and not have to fear any sort of reprisal.

The ability to be honest with yourself and others sounds simple and remedial, yet if I had to guess, I'd say maybe less than one half of a percent of the population have mastered it - if that.

So, unless it can be proven that spirituality is a pre-requisite for possessing the ability to be honest, then I have no reason to believe that spirituality has anything to do with morality.

angelica · August 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

It was programmed by evolution.

Missing huge gaps of knowledge. Is it that huge gaps of knowledge that are only knowable to those in "the know" otherwise they won't know. Is somebody hoarding evidence?

Get back to me when you understand all of the forces in the universe.

angelica · August 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

It was programmed by evolution.

Evolution is a programmer? I think of programmers as intelligent.

Is evolution the universal law of all? Does it encompass every other universal law?

lucylespian · August 2007

sponger wrote:

Truth is the most powerful force in the universe. If it wasn't, then so many people wouldn't be afraid of it. I think even the most devout worshippers of deities fear truth even more than they fear that which they overtly worship.

It's absurd that practitioners of faith take it upon themselves to lecture me about life and morality when they probably can't go a single day without telling a lie of some kind.

I have yet to see any spiritual doctrine that covers why it's important to refrain from dishonesty other than that it's against the will of god. A few months back I was watching Pat Robertson answer a viewer question about why it's important to tell the truth. His explanation was that if you don't tell the truth, then other people will not be able to trust you, and you are therefore no longer be a person of your word. He goes on to say, "It's important that people can rely on you to be a person who is true to his word."

By that rationale, it's OK to lie as long as people don't find out about it. It's an obviously shallow and extrinsic stance on the importance of truthfulness. For those of you who are unfamiliar with maslow, extrinsic motivations are those that are derived from outside influences, not from within. They're considered to be low on the scale of personal development.

I admit that I lie sometimes. I do it for job and financial security. I wish I didn't have to, but I really do see it as the only way to survive right now. I think that if I had the opportunity to be honest all of the time for an extended period of time, I would be free to develop a heightened sense of awareness that no religion could even come close to rivaling.

That's one of the main reasons why I enjoy message boards. I can be honest here and not have to fear any sort of reprisal.

The ability to be honest with yourself and others sounds simple and remedial, yet if I had to guess, I'd say maybe less than one half of a percent of the population have mastered it - if that.

So, unless it can be proven that spirituality is a pre-requisite for possessing the ability to be honest, then I have no reason to believe that spirituality has anything to do with morality.

Belief is much more powerful than truth. Or maybe Bush would not have ocnvinced everyone to go to Iraq.

As for "most powerful force in teh Univers", I think gravity flogs em both.

Ahnimus · August 2007

angelica wrote:

Evolution is a programmer? I think of programmers as intelligent.

Is evolution the universal law of all? Does it encompass every other universal law?

It's a probable cause. Think about. The universe is finely tuned. So are species. But the universe is chaotic at every level. This chaos creates an array of potentials. But unless the combination succeeds, it fails. From before the hydrogen atoms fusion up to and beyond the ascent of humans. Order out of Chaos.

angelica · August 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

It's a probable cause. Think about. The universe is finely tuned. So are species. But the universe is chaotic at every level. This chaos creates an array of potentials. But unless the combination succeeds, it fails. From before the hydrogen atoms fusion up to and beyond the ascent of humans. Order out of Chaos.

Are you talking about all of reality? Or are you only talking about what science knows about?

69charger · August 2007

angelica wrote:

The problem with such views is that people are missing huge gaps of knowledge, and therefore don't get the big picture. And it shows.

Describe to me these "huge gaps" you speak of.

sponger · August 2007

lucylespian wrote:

Belief is much more powerful than truth. Or maybe Bush would not have ocnvinced everyone to go to Iraq.

As for "most powerful force in teh Univers", I think gravity flogs em both.

Had the truth been known, the war would not have happened. Therefore, truth is more powerful in that instance, it's just that truth was obscured by lies. If you want to refer to lies as being more powerful than truth because it can obscure truth, then you might as well refer to clouds as being more powerful than the sun. So, the example of Bush and Iraq does not support your assertion that belief is more power than truth.

angelica · August 2007

69charger wrote:

Describe to me these "huge gaps" you speak of.

I refer to when people break any concept down, and create an illusory vacuum. The vacuum does not exist, and by taking any context out of the whole, there are the huge gaps of knowledge that are contained in the whole of the universe that have been excluded for the one context. Then assumptions are made that such tidbits of information are the truth. IF a kernal of "truth" can even be gleaned from that which has been understood in the illusory conditions of an imagined vacuum, it would reamins a mere kernal of truth.

lucylespian · August 2007

sponger wrote:

Had the truth been known, the war would not have happened. Therefore, truth is more powerful in that instance, it's just that truth was obscured by lies. If you want to refer to lies as being more powerful than truth because it can obscure truth, then you might as well refer to clouds as being more powerful than the sun. So, the example of Bush and Iraq does not support your assertion that belief is more power than truth.

Truth was overpowered by belief, not obscured. Reason is so often overpowered by belief.
Truth gets fucked over more times than not, so it does not exert much power at all.
and gravity still wins

angelica · August 2007

lucylespian wrote:

Truth was overpowered by belief, not obscured. Reason is so often overpowered by belief.
Truth gets fucked over more times than not, so it does not exert much power at all.
and gravity still wins

Truth reigns at all times. Where we find conflict, blindness and misunderstanding is in human perception of "what IS" or the Truth. It doesn't change the facts, however, as you mentioned...universal laws are still in absolute perfect working order, whether we overlook, ignore, malign or misunderstand them.

In psychology, it's understood that the conflicts humans have with what they see are within. We may project those conflicts outwards, and even act them out, yet they are conflicts of the human psyche, not conflicts of natural universal laws which operate....perfectly. And considering humans operate within such perfect natural universal laws, and not at all without, that makes such human conflict perfect, within the context of the universe. Whether we understand it or not.

angelica · August 2007

Ahnimus wrote:

The universe is finely tuned. So are species. But the universe is chaotic at every level. This chaos creates an array of potentials. But unless the combination succeeds, it fails.

Can I ask you what you mean by a combination "succeeding"? Or "failing"? Are you saying that there is an underlying purpose that is looking to be met in such interactions? Are you saying evolution is a mechanism serving a purpose? It looks like when you talk of the human brain being so complexly programmed by evolution, you are talking about evolution serving a "purpose" and further you are talking of it succeeding or failing such purpose. What is the purpose that lies outside of evolution itself, that evolution succeeds or fails at? What is this that evolution is a mechanism of?

Rhinocerous Surprise · August 2007

angelica wrote:

So evolution was somehow coded to arise when the right conditions arise?

When certain variables come into play? Again, to me patterns are intelligent. Particularly purposeful patterns.

But evolution doesn't just follow a pattern. There's a whole host of completely random mutations to take into account.

angelica · August 2007

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

But evolution doesn't just follow a pattern. There's a whole host of completely random mutations to take into account.

There's very clearly some distinct universal patterns of "evolution" or we wouldn't study them, talk about or teach them.

Take a look at this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALZky9sW59M
It's a few minutes long and addresses quite pertinently our human perception regarding this topic, in terms of how we process information and specifically randomness and patterns and how they operate.

angelica · August 2007

So, to tie the video in to what I am saying, and grounding it in science: while we are able to perceive the physical dimensions of height, width, depth, time and space, who on this board can understand, intepret, explain and take into consideration the other 7 dimensions identified in quantum physics?

Because we are unable to perceive, conceptualize or understand them, does that mean they don't exist?

If we are being scientific, we cannot assess that what we see is not intelligent. That is judgment and it is beyond the facts. And such perception identifies our own level of awareness/lack-of-awareness, which again brings me back to the afore-mentioned "huge gaps of awareness" we operate upon.

Those who have an accurate understanding of science, and who are truly not acting on bias, understand that science does not answer the questions of "why". Science does not address that which is beyond the facts. It cannot. This point defines the limits of science, not the reality of what "is".

Onward with humility and the glorious discovery of un-understood and uncharted dimensions of reality!

sponger · August 2007

lucylespian wrote:

Truth was overpowered by belief, not obscured. Reason is so often overpowered by belief.
Truth gets fucked over more times than not, so it does not exert much power at all.
and gravity still wins

"Overpowered" implies a total victory. In the case of Bush and Iraq, the truth eventually reared its head and created a political backlash that Bush and possibly the US will never recover from.

Therefore, truth was not and never is "overpowered" by belief. It is instead obscured.

Rhinocerous Surprise · August 2007

angelica wrote:

So, to tie the video in to what I am saying, and grounding it in science: while we are able to perceive the physical dimensions of height, width, depth, time and space, who on this board can understand, intepret, explain and take into consideration the other 7 dimensions identified in quantum physics?

Because we are unable to perceive, conceptualize or understand them, does that mean they don't exist?

If we are being scientific, we cannot assess that what we see is not intelligent. That is judgment and it is beyond the facts. And such perception identifies our own level of awareness/lack-of-awareness, which again brings me back to the afore-mentioned "huge gaps of awareness" we operate upon.

Those who have an accurate understanding of science, and who are truly not acting on bias, understand that science does not answer the questions of "why". Science does not address that which is beyond the facts. It cannot. This point defines the limits of science, not the reality of what "is".

Onward with humility and the glorious discovery of un-understood and uncharted dimensions of reality!

This I agree with, completely. Science isn't about why, it's about how. Anything beyond is speculation based on our own perceptions. But that's why I'm not prepared to say evolution is intelligent. For me, assigning intelligence to evolution is giving it a "why" that can't be proven.

angelica · August 2007

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

This I agree with, completely. Science isn't about why, it's about how. Anything beyond is speculation based on our own perceptions. But that's why I'm not prepared to say evolution is intelligent. For me, assigning intelligence to evolution is giving it a "why" that can't be proven.

Going by your own impressions is absolutely fair.

For me, where intelligence exists, and I see it stunningly all around me from the tiniest particle to the most complex theory, it is intelligence, itself. It's self evident.

Obi Once · August 2007

angelica wrote:

How is natural selection predetermined in our brains?

I knew when I wrote this I'd hve to explain it. What made sense to me during a lecture was that we have images of beauty (e.g. physical built, facial features as symmetry), fitness and health for a future partner are present in our brains, trades we seek for in the person we eventually share genes with for a future generation. This (in short and what I concluded from it) is the explanation of a professor of mine who teaches evolution. In the course of evolution this partner picking is programmed in the brain.

Added: I guess in the human brain and the times and social circumstances we live in this might have changed somewhat, but still have a blueprint present.

angelica · August 2007

Obi Once wrote:

I knew when I wrote this I'd hve to explain it. What made sense to me during a lecture was that we have images of beauty (e.g. physical built, facial features as symmetry), fitness and health for a future partner are present in our brains, trades we seek for in the person we eventually share genes with for a future generation. This (in short and what I concluded from it) is the explanation of a professor of mine who teaches evolution. In the course of evolution this partner picking is programmed in the brain.

Added: I guess in the human brain and the times and social circumstances we live in this might have changed somewhat, but still have a blueprint present.

I would even go so far as to say this encoding comes from existence/life and moves through and even beyond the brain. It obviously goes beyond the brain when it brings an individual mate into the picture. It's a holistic function. This is where the "beginnings" and endings and compartmentalizations are only meant for study, and do not define reality. Reality defines reality. I agree with the essence of what you are saying, and I see it in a more encompassing way.

I'm mesmerized by how this works out on the internet--how I tap into certain people who are in a similar place as I am, from all over the globe. The limits we once liked to entertain are dissolving, and we are understanding the holism of what Is. To me it's stunning in its depth and intelligence.

calling all athiests...

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