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calling all athiests...

turnedmyworldtoblackturnedmyworldtoblack Posts: 151
edited August 2007 in A Moving Train
I could have searched for athiest posts but finding something this specific would have taken research and effort and I'd rather just hear a few answers. For the last year religion and spirituality have been making their own opinions in my head, and I really dont have a strong stance on anything regarding the two and just some mixed thoughts + a brainwashed religious upbringing.

I present this question though..

For athiests, how do you explain the fact that spirituality often does remarkable things? Not any certain faith or anything, but from healings in different faith(s) to causing radical Islams to think that blowing themselves up will do something good for them? I feel like there is obviously some ridiculously strong power behind these types of things, but I myself can not fool myself into believing that there is some omni-present God watching us.

I just would like to hear what athiests attribute the spirituality of a human being to? Is it just molded into the whole human race as a feature? Or do they give something credit for this?

(I understand this can present many different views, but I found it better to ask then the original question I was going to post, which was how do the building blocks of life such as amino acids and things like that turn into something with eyeballs and a heart)

Thanks in advance for any attention to my post.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • keeponrockinkeeponrockin Posts: 7,446
    In my opinion, it comes from people thinking that their life has a meaning. Comfort if you will.
    Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
  • Rhinocerous SurpriseRhinocerous Surprise Posts: 4,423
    keeponrockin wrote:
    In my opinion, it comes from people thinking that their life has a meaning. Comfort if you will.

    Not wanting to accept that this life could be all there is. Exactly.

    (Unless that wasn't really the point you were making...:D)
    Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.
  • keeponrockinkeeponrockin Posts: 7,446
    Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:
    Not wanting to accept that this life could be all there is. Exactly.

    (Unless that wasn't really the point you were making...:D)
    It was exactly the point I was making.
    Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
  • turnedmyworldtoblackturnedmyworldtoblack Posts: 151
    keeponrockin wrote:
    In my opinion, it comes from people thinking that their life has a meaning. Comfort if you will.

    Ok so life has a meaning. I still find that answer just vague and not to really answer the underlying question of how it still does such powerful things.

    I cant just sit here and say my internet connection has meaning and then my cable modem starts to make me do things that I never thought were possible?? What a suck-ass analogy by me but I just don't think that coming to the conlusion that life has meaning in your head is all it takes for that to happen.
  • turnedmyworldtoblackturnedmyworldtoblack Posts: 151
    Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:
    Not wanting to accept that this life could be all there is. Exactly.

    (Unless that wasn't really the point you were making...:D)

    If life isn't all there is then what is the most commonly accepted reason for existence by people who think there is no God?

    I swear on my pearl jam collection that I am not just playing devils advocate, I am just trying to gain insight.
  • Rhinocerous SurpriseRhinocerous Surprise Posts: 4,423
    turnedmyworldtoblack wrote:
    Ok so life has a meaning. I still find that answer just vague and not to really answer the underlying question of how it still does such powerful things.

    I cant just sit here and say my internet connection has meaning and then my cable modem starts to make me do things that I never thought were possible?? What a suck-ass analogy by me but I just don't think that coming to the conlusion that life has meaning in your head is all it takes for that to happen.

    Well, if I can go in over my head for a minute...

    Thousands of years ago, we didn't have science as we know it today. People attributed what they couldn't explain rationally to magic, or a "god". Years later, people started investigating these powers, and found scientific reasons for them. So the need for a "god" to explain them was nulled. Now, science can't explain everything in the universe yet. We've got the big bang, and we've got evolution, but some people still hold onto the tradition of a god because they need more convincing, or simply because they were brought up that way.

    If we use your example... Your modem is a tool. You understand the basics of how it works, and you know that you control it, and that it's manmade. On the other hand, the concept of a being that is beyond human understanding is a powerful force, and this is what drives people to act in service of the god.
    Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.
  • Rhinocerous SurpriseRhinocerous Surprise Posts: 4,423
    turnedmyworldtoblack wrote:
    If life isn't all there is then what is the most commonly accepted reason for existence by people who think there is no God?

    I swear on my pearl jam collection that I am not just playing devils advocate, I am just trying to gain insight.

    Hey, it's cool. We all have questions about stuff.:D

    Well, if you mean how we came to be, there's all manner of science to explain it - atoms, evolution, all that kind of noise that other people can elaborate on better than I can. My buddy LoveRock333 could write a thesis on it, probably.;)

    If you're asking what we think our reason to live is, well, I can't speak for all atheists, you understand. But I'd say life is what you make it. Simple as that. Enjoy the time you've got, because it's short, and it's priceless.
    Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    turnedmyworldtoblack wrote:
    For athiests, how do you explain the fact that spirituality often does remarkable things? Not any certain faith or anything, but from healings in different faith(s) to causing radical Islams to think that blowing themselves up will do something good for them? I feel like there is obviously some ridiculously strong power behind these types of things, but I myself can not fool myself into believing that there is some omni-present God watching us.

    First, I'd be skeptical to call anything spirituality does "remarkable". Unless you consider the placebo effect to be equally as remarkable. In-fact, the placebo effect might be the scientific equivelant of a "faith healing".

    The truly remarkable thing about "spirituality" is the feeling people associate with it. This may or may not be due to some higher power. Honestly, I think it's rather gullible to automatically assume that it is. The evidence from Dr. Michael Persinger and Andrew Newberg suggests that the Temporal Lobes and Pareital Lobes play a role in both the religious experiences of Buddhist Monks and Christians. The catch is, not everyone's temporal lobes are susceptible to these experiences. *cough* Richard Dawkins *cough*. I would suggest that the susceptibility to "religious experience" directly correlates with a susceptibility to religious belief. People with Temporal Lobe epilespy often experience severe seizures that cause them to either A) feel they are in contact with God or B) feel they are God.

    In one incident I've heard of, the man thought he was God and walked down the street screaming "I AM GOD!" and attempted to run out in-front of traffic to prove it. It's no surprise to me that individuals (Muslims) that spend a lot of time praying and exercising this experience might feel strongly that death is not a big deal, they may even be rewarded according to their specific doctrine.
    I just would like to hear what athiests attribute the spirituality of a human being to? Is it just molded into the whole human race as a feature? Or do they give something credit for this?

    The term "spirituality" is one that I contest. It presupposes something called a "Spirit" that humans purpotedly posess. There is no evidence for it. It's an archaic term that was created to describe aspects of human experience that pre-exist the study of the human brain. All of those so-called "spiritual" or "religious" experiences are accounted for by Neuroscience - the study of the human brain.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • hippiemomhippiemom Posts: 3,326
    In the past several months I've read two books that did an outstanding job of attempting to explain the human desire for religion from an atheist's standpoint. The first was "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins. He takes an unabashedly atheist and Darwinist view and makes it quite clear that he has no use whatsoever for religion, but he also presents several hypotheses, backed up by scientific research, on why most humans have always believed in one sort of god or another. It's well-written, entertaining, informative, and fairly easy to read.

    The other book is "Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon" by Daniel Dennett. Although he's also an atheist, he doesn't come across as dogmatic as Dawkins. He takes a philosophic and scientific approach to the question. Of all Dennett's books, this is the one that seems most targeted at a mass audience, but he's an academic and it can be dense reading at times. It's well worthwhile if you're truly interested in the topic. He has a slightly different take on things than Dawkins, and he too backs everything up with plenty of research.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    hippiemom wrote:
    In the past several months I've read two books that did an outstanding job of attempting to explain the human desire for religion from an atheist's standpoint. The first was "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins. He takes an unabashedly atheist and Darwinist view and makes it quite clear that he has no use whatsoever for religion, but he also presents several hypotheses, backed up by scientific research, on why most humans have always believed in one sort of god or another. It's well-written, entertaining, informative, and fairly easy to read.

    The other book is "Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon" by Daniel Dennett. Although he's also an atheist, he doesn't come across as dogmatic as Dawkins. He takes a philosophic and scientific approach to the question. Of all Dennett's books, this is the one that seems most targeted at a mass audience, but he's an academic and it can be dense reading at times. It's well worthwhile if you're truly interested in the topic. He has a slightly different take on things than Dawkins, and he too backs everything up with plenty of research.

    I liked The God Delusion and Daniel C Dennett is a great philosopher.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • ClimberInOzClimberInOz Posts: 216
    keeponrockin wrote:
    In my opinion, it comes from people thinking that their life has a meaning. Comfort if you will.

    From my own perspective I would actually just clarify the above statement a little- it comes from people thinking or wanting to think that their life has meaning or signifigance beyond their signifigance to friends, family, themselves etc. And I would also say good luck to them, if that is what works.

    As a passionate atheist, I would not deny that life has meaning. But I would suggest that the meaning in our lives comes from the accumulated experiences of our lives, and that we matter diddly-squat to the 'greater universe'.
  • CollinCollin Posts: 4,931
    Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:
    Not wanting to accept that this life could be all there is. Exactly.

    I agree.

    And, that some people's emotions about life and everything are so strong and overwhelming that they cannot describe it any other way than "above human", something more... which comes back to what you wrote, I guess.

    Ahnimus's post is also very interesting.
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  • lucylespianlucylespian Posts: 2,403
    People like belief. It's contagious, it creates easily defined tribal boundaries, which tells you who is safe and who isn't.
    Have a look at a couple of books by Terry Pratchett, better known for being a silly bugger. "The Globe", and "The Disc", one follows the other, and they do a good job of discussing all this stuff.
    It's easy to make up stuff when you don't know what's really going on, and easier to sell it than ice-cream to a hot man.
    Science is a new invention, and religion had tens of thousands of years head start at messing with peoples heads. It's very deeply buried in our extelligence set.
    People like stories. Pratchett says we should have called ourselves Pan narrans , the story telling monkey, instead of Homo sapiens. Personally, I think Pan gullibans, the story believing monkey is more on the mark !! LOL !!!!
    Music is not a competetion.
  • Obi OnceObi Once Posts: 918
    turnedmyworldtoblack wrote:
    For athiests, how do you explain the fact that spirituality often does remarkable things? Not any certain faith or anything, but from healings in different faith(s) to causing radical Islams to think that blowing themselves up will do something good for them?
    I think Ahnimus makes a good point with the placebo effect. Also keep in mind that the mind is a powerfull tool, it will not make you fly but it has been proven that the mere thought of physical effort makes the muscles burn energy. Like waking up from a very intense dream can make you tired. To that effect believing in god and thinking he told you to do something can make you do things that to others seem incredible or immensely stupid.
    turnedmyworldtoblack wrote:
    I just would like to hear what athiests attribute the spirituality of a human being to? Is it just molded into the whole human race as a feature? Or do they give something credit for this?
    This also has been answered several times in a way I would too, it's trying to explain the unexplainable.
    turnedmyworldtoblack wrote:
    (I understand this can present many different views, but I found it better to ask then the original question I was going to post, which was how do the building blocks of life such as amino acids and things like that turn into something with eyeballs and a heart)

    Thanks in advance for any attention to my post.
    Trying to figure out how things like a heart or an eyeball came into existence isn't easy, but the thought of simple organisms evolving in whales, elephants and hummingbirds is also mind boggling. Still evolution makes makes more sense to me than intelligent design.

    Yesterday I had a discussion with a friend about the existence of god, if he would exist and he created everything, is the universe some kind of experiment seeing if we can abide by his rules? I very much doubt it.


    Some fiction from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy trying to explain the babel fish (which I find very amusing):

    Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mind-bogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God. The argument goes something like this:
    "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
    "But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves that you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. Q.E.D."
    "Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
    "Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.
    :)
    your light's reflected now
  • lucylespianlucylespian Posts: 2,403
    Obi Once wrote:
    . Also keep in mind that the mind is a powerfull tool, it will not make you fly but it has been proven that the mere thought of physical effort makes the muscles burn energy.

    :)

    Yes, but their methodology for that study was crap, and that in fact is not even nearly true. Mind does not exert any effect outside the body it lives in, except by influencing other minds.
    Any belief to the contrary is narcissistic.
    Music is not a competetion.
  • Obi OnceObi Once Posts: 918
    lucylespian wrote:
    Yes, but their methodology for that study was crap, and that in fact is not even nearly true. Mind does not exert any effect outside the body it lives in, except by influencing other minds.
    Any belief to the contrary is narcissistic.
    Alright I'm trying to remember where I saw this, but don't. Still it made sense to me since in a very intense dream involving lots of e.g. running one can wake of tired and strained. Maybe I don't understand your words correctly, the study was crap and that isn't nearly true? The mind does not have any influence outside the body it's in, besides influencing other by speech, art, whatever is obvious to me, tho I never claimed anything in the contrary and don't see how that could be egocentric, conceited or selfish.
    your light's reflected now
  • angelicaangelica Posts: 6,038
    Obi Once wrote:
    Still evolution makes makes more sense to me than intelligent design.
    Do you think evolution is intelligent?
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • Rhinocerous SurpriseRhinocerous Surprise Posts: 4,423
    angelica wrote:
    Do you think evolution is intelligent?

    The question wasn't directed at me, but I'm bored so I'll answer anyways.:p

    It has what could be construed as intelligence - ie. survival of the fittest - but also includes random mutations that can be helpful to a creature, or to its detriment, which would seem to indicate that evolution is not intelligent, per se.
    Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.
  • Surf LifeSurf Life Posts: 50
    Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

    If you're asking what we think our reason to live is, well, I can't speak for all atheists, you understand. But I'd say life is what you make it. Simple as that. Enjoy the time you've got, because it's short, and it's priceless.

    That's what I believe too. I figure this is my 'heaven' so i better enjoy it. ;)
  • Obi OnceObi Once Posts: 918
    angelica wrote:
    Do you think evolution is intelligent?
    Nope, natural selection is pre-determined in our brain and the mutations occur randomly so there's really not much intelligent about it, it has had very interesting, remarkable and perhaps intelligent results.
    your light's reflected now
  • lucylespianlucylespian Posts: 2,403
    Obi Once wrote:
    Alright I'm trying to remember where I saw this, but don't. Still it made sense to me since in a very intense dream involving lots of e.g. running one can wake of tired and strained. Maybe I don't understand your words correctly, the study was crap and that isn't nearly true? The mind does not have any influence outside the body it's in, besides influencing other by speech, art, whatever is obvious to me, tho I never claimed anything in the contrary and don't see how that could be egocentric, conceited or selfish.

    They used non-dominant littel finger strength on the "assumption" it is not used for anything else, and therefore felt they were controlling for confounding variables. Assumptions have no place in science, and in this case, was very wrong, as I know for a damn fact that my littel finger plays guitar for several hours a day. They the had one group of people think about exercise, and another group do nothing. Unsurprisingly, the "think group" little fingers got stronger. However, it's pretty damn easy to exercise a little finger while you are doing anything. Hell, I'm flexing mine a lot now just thinking about it.
    The narcism bit was not directed at you.
    Actually, it was a thought about myself.
    When I was younger, I believed in "magic", and part of the reason, apart from that it's a very attractive notion, was that I wanted to believe that I was capable of it myself. That is a narcissistic thought. People who believe that their mind can control physical things through non-physical or psychic means are being seduced by teh same idea. All claims of "Psychic" ability invollve an element of "I'm special" thinking.
    Physiological dreams are very common. They tend to incorporate physical feelings into a dream scenario, rather then the dream causing the physical feelingds. The commonest ones are the "need to piss" dream, which happen often, and you wake up needing to piss. Sex dreams are common, apparently men and women have them with similar frequency. Sex deprived men, esp teenage boys may ejaculate, as you know.
    Another form is the dream which culminates in a loud noise, then you wake up to find a door has slammed, or the bloody cat has knocked over the crockery. So, you were going to awake tired anyway.
    Music is not a competetion.
  • DriftingByTheStormDriftingByTheStorm Posts: 8,684
    hippiemom wrote:
    In the past several months I've read two books that did an outstanding job of attempting to explain the human desire for religion from an atheist's standpoint. The first was "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins.


    i found and fell in love with this site today.
    anything to promote it.
    ya'll may want to check this out:
    Richard Dawkins related videos on Onebigtorrent.org
    If I was to smile and I held out my hand
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  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    First you have to quantify intelligence. Which we never end up doing in the thread "What is "Intelligence"?"
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • RolandTD20KdrummerRolandTD20Kdrummer Posts: 13,066
    "Jesus Built my hotrod"

    sorry it's now my default answer to all the religious threads...

    If I made you laugh...great...if not PM me your copious hatred...

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  • PearlsofJamPearlsofJam Posts: 226
    For that I respond with a study on prayer and heart surgery
    http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2006/03/31/no_benefit_of_prayer_found_after_surgery/
    "American women expect to find in their husbands a perfection that English women only hope to find in their butlers"
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  • RolandTD20KdrummerRolandTD20Kdrummer Posts: 13,066
    PearlsofJam wrote:
    For that I respond with a study on prayer and heart surgery
    http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2006/03/31/no_benefit_of_prayer_found_after_surgery/


    Fuck that....brain surgery kicks heart surgery's ass....

    Ok....maybe it's a draw...
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • angelicaangelica Posts: 6,038
    Obi Once wrote:
    Nope, natural selection is pre-determined in our brain and the mutations occur randomly so there's really not much intelligent about it, it has had very interesting, remarkable and perhaps intelligent results.
    How is natural selection predetermined in our brains?
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • brain of cbrain of c Posts: 5,213
    spirituality? i like canadian sprits. canadian club, seagrams, moosehead......
    d'oh!!!!!!

    http://www.myspace.com/brain_of_c
  • keeponrockinkeeponrockin Posts: 7,446
    ClimberInOz wrote:
    From my own perspective I would actually just clarify the above statement a little- it comes from people thinking or wanting to think that their life has meaning or signifigance beyond their signifigance to friends, family, themselves etc. And I would also say good luck to them, if that is what works.

    As a passionate atheist, I would not deny that life has meaning. But I would suggest that the meaning in our lives comes from the accumulated experiences of our lives, and that we matter diddly-squat to the 'greater universe'.
    Ya I shoulda said that. My life has tons of meaning to the people around me.
    Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
  • 69charger69charger Posts: 1,045
    angelica wrote:
    Do you think evolution is intelligent?

    Do you think a computer is intelligent?
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