Has Blackwater USA become the New and Improved SS???

13

Comments

  • RolandTD20Kdrummer
    RolandTD20Kdrummer Posts: 13,066
    Kel Varnsen wrote:
    The problem with analogies like that is when they become so over the top people hear them and automatically write off the person saying. It would be like saying George Bush=Darth Vader. Once you have made that ridiculous exaggeration, how are people going to take the rest of the facts after that seriously.

    Kel....my bro...

    Your name reminds me of getting high on varnish fumes. Ok bad joke....maybe...

    Some would think you just insulted Darth Vader. No really I shit you not.

    Cmon bro....Star Wars and all that shit....CP3O, R2D2, Chewbacca...

    click Chewbacca first....or last....but anyhow...


    perhaps you just killed Kenny.......you bastard...
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

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  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Cosmo wrote:
    Wrong. The soldier is a Special Ops operative in Afghanistan.


    Correct.


    Wrong. The Soldier is attached to a Maintanance detail in the Green Zone in Iraq.


    Correct.


    Wrong. The soldiers are Iraqi Security Forces.


    Correct.

    That's 3 out of 6.

    A special ops operative (he looks like a non-blackwater mercenary to me) is not regular army, nor are Iraq Security forces...the only one I was unsure of was what you are telling me of the maintenence operations. I wouldn't know a Blackwater "employee "if I shit on him, but I do know what regular Army looks like, and I imagine the people in Iraq who work in close proximity of these guys know the difference.
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  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Cosmo wrote:
    ...
    Here are Blackwater Employees:
    http://farm1.static.flickr.com/102/311935549_2368842206.jpg?v=0

    http://farm1.static.flickr.com/108/311925793_02d0e05516.jpg?v=0

    http://farm1.static.flickr.com/105/311935551_3e62029756.jpg?v=0
    ...
    I don't know if I could tell the difference if they were Blackwater or U.S. Military... especially is I were under fire from them.

    To me, these guys don't look a thing like regular GI's.
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  • keeponrockin
    keeponrockin Posts: 7,446
    Cosmo wrote:
    ...
    I agree with you... a comparison to the Nazis is not close.
    However, it is possible to compare Guantanamo Bay, Cuba and the tactics used there to the former Soviet Union's gulags for dissidents.
    As for Blackwater... Their alligence is to money. Give them enough money and they'll work as body guards for Bin Laden.
    That's a good point. What if some of the opposition starts paying these guys more? What if Iran were to hire these guys? How does that all work?

    I'm actually serious.
    Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
  • Cosmo
    Cosmo Posts: 12,225
    gue_barium wrote:
    A special ops operative (he looks like a non-blackwater mercenary to me) is not regular army, nor are Iraq Security forces...the only one I was unsure of was what you are telling me of the maintenence operations. I wouldn't know a Blackwater "employee "if I shit on him, but I do know what regular Army looks like, and I imagine the people in Iraq who work in close proximity of these guys know the difference.
    ...
    So, your assumption is that the entire Iraqi population works in close proximity with the U.S. occupational forces that they can tell the difference between a Blackwater Mercenary and a U.S. soldier?
    My point is that to Reg'lur Joe Average Iraqi... a foriegner who comes out of the Green Zone with an automatic weapon is a foriegner with a weapon. And America is occupying their country, not Blackwater. I do not believe that Joe Iraqi says, "Oh... it was a Blackwater employee who riddled my car with bullets... so, it's not America's fault". No. Whatever Blackwater does, Joe Iraqi sees it as the occupational military forces... i.e. America. Blackwater equals America to him.
    If you believe that the average Iraqi can tell the difference... whatever. I just can't see it the way you do.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Cosmo wrote:
    ...
    So, your assumption is that the entire Iraqi population works in close proximity with the U.S. occupational forces that they can tell the difference between a Blackwater Mercenary and a U.S. soldier?
    My point is that to Reg'lur Joe Average Iraqi... a foriegner who comes out of the Green Zone with an automatic weapon is a foriegner with a weapon. And America is occupying their country, not Blackwater. I do not believe that Joe Iraqi says, "Oh... it was a Blackwater employee who riddled my car with bullets... so, it's not America's fault". No. Whatever Blackwater does, Joe Iraqi sees it as the occupational military forces... i.e. America. Blackwater equals America to him.
    If you believe that the average Iraqi can tell the difference... whatever. I just can't see it the way you do.
    I'm trying to see things through the eyes of an insurgent. And the insurgents are anywhere and everywhere within the non-insurgent local population. People talk, I think, and they know the differences. Another thing about being aware of the military about you is the differences in all sorts of things including the vehicles that they drive, the specific operations they serve, the noise and shape of the helicopters they use, and of course the differences in the uniforms they wear. Politically, sure, one damn American is as bad as the next, but I think within the close proximities, those differences are known.
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  • g under p
    g under p Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,252
    Kel Varnsen wrote:
    The problem with analogies like that is when they become so over the top people hear them and automatically write off the person saying. It would be like saying George Bush=Darth Vader. Once you have made that ridiculous exaggeration, how are people going to take the rest of the facts after that seriously.

    Again since starting here July 22, 2007 it's been some great conversation. I started this thread not trying to say Blackwater USA is exactly like the SS but more from the perspective of the Iraqi citizens and their government officials.

    Here in the US we maybe more inclined to tell the difference between the two but from the Iraqi perspective it maybe quite different. My meaning being by now with the many Blackwater Operations see limitless fear and literally no chance of judicial proceedings for wrongdoings.

    I mean if you can literally get away with killing the Vice President of Iraq's bodyguard in a drunken state of mind, then you can get away with anything. Imagine if that happened to Dick Cheney's SS protection we would want that killer lynched.

    This war will end at some point and Blackwater will be available and ready in the USA then we will really know how close they will come to being like/similar to the SS. That's if we let them get away that lawless mercenary protection they now provide in Iraq.

    Peace
    *We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti

    *MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
    .....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti

    *The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)


  • Cosmo
    Cosmo Posts: 12,225
    gue_barium wrote:
    I'm trying to see things through the eyes of an insurgent. And the insurgents are anywhere and everywhere within the non-insurgent local population. People talk, I think, and they know the differences. Another thing about being aware of the military about you is the differences in all sorts of things including the vehicles that they drive, the specific operations they serve, the noise and shape of the helicopters they use, and of course the differences in the uniforms they wear. Politically, sure, one damn American is as bad as the next, but I think within the close proximities, those differences are known.
    ...
    Then that's where we differ... I'm trying to see it as Joe Iraqi that just wants to walk down to the maket place without getting blown apart or cut in half, not the insurgent who is just looking to kill someone. All Joe Iraqi knows is that there are a bunch of foriegn mother fuckers with big ass guns in control of the place... or, are SUPPOSED to be in control of the place.
    So, he doesn't give a shit is a helicopter opens fire on his apartment building... he just knows it ain't anyone else except those mother fuckers from the Green Zone. Everything that flys over his head belongs to the Green Zone. Blackwater, U.S. Military... a helicopter is a helicopter and all of them are American... he doesn't give a shit. Those crazy fuckers just shot up his goddamn apartment... that's all he cares about. To him... he holds America responsible, not Blackwater.
    THAT is why if America cares about what goes on over there... America HAS to get fucking Blackwater to quit making us look bad.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Cosmo wrote:
    ...
    Then that's where we differ... I'm trying to see it as Joe Iraqi that just wants to walk down to the maket place without getting blown apart or cut in half, not the insurgent who is just looking to kill someone. All Joe Iraqi knows is that there are a bunch of foriegn mother fuckers with big ass guns in control of the place... or, are SUPPOSED to be in control of the place.
    So, he doesn't give a shit is a helicopter opens fire on his apartment building... he just knows it ain't anyone else except those mother fuckers from the Green Zone. Everything that flys over his head belongs to the Green Zone. Blackwater, U.S. Military... a helicopter is a helicopter and all of them are American... he doesn't give a shit. Those crazy fuckers just shot up his goddamn apartment... that's all he cares about. To him... he holds America responsible, not Blackwater.
    THAT is why if America cares about what goes on over there... America HAS to get fucking Blackwater to quit making us look bad.

    I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
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  • Commy
    Commy Posts: 4,984
    Cosmo wrote:
    ...
    Then that's where we differ... I'm trying to see it as Joe Iraqi that just wants to walk down to the maket place without getting blown apart or cut in half, not the insurgent who is just looking to kill someone. All Joe Iraqi knows is that there are a bunch of foriegn mother fuckers with big ass guns in control of the place... or, are SUPPOSED to be in control of the place.
    So, he doesn't give a shit is a helicopter opens fire on his apartment building... he just knows it ain't anyone else except those mother fuckers from the Green Zone. Everything that flys over his head belongs to the Green Zone. Blackwater, U.S. Military... a helicopter is a helicopter and all of them are American... he doesn't give a shit. Those crazy fuckers just shot up his goddamn apartment... that's all he cares about. To him... he holds America responsible, not Blackwater.
    THAT is why if America cares about what goes on over there... America HAS to get fucking Blackwater to quit making us look bad.

    Making us look bad? mhh.

    Hey, remember vietnam? Ever here of the pheonix program? Well it was this counterinsugency program where US intelligence would find out who was leading the resistance and then send in special forces (and/or Mercs) to kill their families...well torture and rape their kids then kill them. Had to be brutal anyway...it was psychological warfare...try to get them to bnot want to fight. Anyway..that program has only evolved and is an ingrained part of Us foreign policy.

    War is shit. War is brutal. War is terrible. And the US is the best at it this world has ever seen.
  • Cosmo
    Cosmo Posts: 12,225
    Commy wrote:
    Making us look bad? mhh.

    Hey, remember vietnam? Ever here of the pheonix program? Well it was this counterinsugency program where US intelligence would find out who was leading the resistance and then send in special forces (and/or Mercs) to kill their families...well torture and rape their kids then kill them. Had to be brutal anyway...it was psychological warfare...try to get them to bnot want to fight. Anyway..that program has only evolved and is an ingrained part of Us foreign policy.

    War is shit. War is brutal. War is terrible. And the US is the best at it this world has ever seen.
    ...
    I see what you are saying... I'm just saying that if America is supposed to be... and wants to be the good guys in Iraq, ALL Armed Forces that are foriegn to Iraq NEED to act like the good guys. If these Blackwater assholes go around shooting up the place... to the average Iraqi... it is America. Joe Iraqi does not differentiate Blackwater from American soldiers, regardless what people may think. A foriegner in his country did this shit and he wil hold us accountable. Therefore, America needs to make Blackwater accountable for the actions they commit in Iraq.
    Either that... or let things continue to slide downhill. If we want to be seen as Liberators... ACT LIKE LIBERATORS. Otherwise, we will continue to be seen as occupational forces.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • g under p
    g under p Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,252
    Cosmo wrote:
    ...
    I see what you are saying... I'm just saying that if America is supposed to be... and wants to be the good guys in Iraq, ALL Armed Forces that are foriegn to Iraq NEED to act like the good guys. If these Blackwater assholes go around shooting up the place... to the average Iraqi... it is America. Joe Iraqi does not differentiate Blackwater from American soldiers, regardless what people may think. A foriegner in his country did this shit and he wil hold us accountable. Therefore, America needs to make Blackwater accountable for the actions they commit in Iraq.
    Either that... or let things continue to slide downhill. If we want to be seen as Liberators... ACT LIKE LIBERATORS. Otherwise, we will continue to be seen as occupational forces.

    Which they're, they're THE occupational force.

    Peace
    *We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti

    *MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
    .....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti

    *The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)


  • PaperPlates
    PaperPlates Posts: 1,745
    I cant help but wonder if there's a guy in Iraq named Joe Iraqi reading this thread and wondering why you keep referring to him. :p
    Why go home

    www.myspace.com/jensvad
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    PaperPlates wrote:
    I cant help but wonder if there's a guy in Iraq named Joe Iraqi reading this thread and wondering why you keep referring to him. :p

    I've heard it told that his real name is 'Sam Iraqi.' And that he is related to the American, Jamaquori.
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  • g under p
    g under p Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,252
    Experts say DynCorp of Falls Church and Triple Canopy of Herndon have much to gain or lose depending on the outcome of investigations into Blackwater's conduct in Iraq, where its employees allegedly fired on and killed Iraqi civilians.
    .
    "There's going to be a continuing drumbeat of bad news for this company," said Peter Singer, an expert on private security at the Brookings Institution who is critical of the industry. "As competitors, that's good news for them. . . . Maybe it means [Blackwater] is less likely to win contracts the future."

    Any new business, however, could be lost in the damage to the industry's reputation, some say. "If I were advising either of those companies, I would be worried about the Blackwater incident coming back to haunt the whole issue of private security and how it's used in Iraq," said Deborah Avant, a political science professor at the University of California at Irvine.




    Some competition for Blackwater which is so needed.
    A Tougher Line on Government Contracting
    Blackwater Fallout May Ripple Through Industry

    Peace
    *We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti

    *MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
    .....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti

    *The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)


  • polaris
    polaris Posts: 3,527
    Kel Varnsen wrote:
    The problem with analogies like that is when they become so over the top people hear them and automatically write off the person saying. It would be like saying George Bush=Darth Vader. Once you have made that ridiculous exaggeration, how are people going to take the rest of the facts after that seriously.

    well ... should we nurture ignorance? ... one can choose to ignore a message through countless methods ... it isn't going to work for everyone ...
  • MarylandTeacher
    MarylandTeacher Posts: 233
    I had some ex-millitary buddies try to recruit me for contract work during Gulf War, round 1.

    The pay seems to be wildly out of balance. I agree that the grunts are getting IUDed while some cowboys rake in the cash.

    just my .02

    Matthew

    g under p wrote:
    Before I get started I just want to say it has been great joining the PJ Club especially here at MT.

    Now back to the question of the day, Has Blackwater USA become the SS like what Germany had back in WWII?

    I say yes in that they have immunity from justice through powers given from the Justice Dept. In signs of trouble they're given "a window or isle seat out of the country". Anytime you can murder the Vice President of Iraq's bodygaurd and get away with not being charged you've got some clout.

    They were in charge of security of New Orleans in that they were the ones not allowing folks to re-enter their own homes. Lawless cowboys roaming Iraq for $1000+ a day while the grunts get pennies for dodging IUD's.

    I wonder how our troops are taking this?

    Here's the head, CEO of Blackwater USA testifing in DC: Mr. Prince Goes to Washington: Blackwater Founder Testifies Before Congress.

    What's your thoughts on this so called private company?

    Peace
    Dalai Lama—To say that humility is an essential ingredient in our pursuit of spiritual transformation may seem to be at odds with what I have said about the need for confidence. But there is clearly a distinction to be made between valid confidence or self-esteem, and conceit - which we can describe as an inflated sense of importance, grounded in a false image of self.
  • Kel Varnsen
    Kel Varnsen Posts: 1,952
    polaris wrote:
    well ... should we nurture ignorance? ... one can choose to ignore a message through countless methods ... it isn't going to work for everyone ...


    Of course no one should nurture ignorance but I don't see how calling a group of mercenaries Nazi's is not a form of ignorance. It would be much better to present the facts as to exactly what they are doing, rather than use over the top exaggerations. It would be like if the other side of the argument tried to convince people that Blackwater troops were all Choir boys. They aren’t but I don’t think they are Nazi’s either.
  • puremagic
    puremagic Posts: 1,907
    Kel Varnsen wrote:
    I think the question should be more like would you rather go to a concentration camp and be put to work doing back breaking labour, with little or no food, be subjected so cruel and almost inhuman scientific experiments, live in an overcrowded shack with hundreds of other people with zero sanitary services and on top of all of that be eventually sent to the gas chamber, or would you rather sit in solitary for 5 years. Personally I would take the solitary, especially since there might be a chance that you may get released. Until the concentration camps were librated I don’t think many people were released from them.

    The thing is if someone is going to say that Blackwater is the SS or Gitmo is a concentration camp, at least draw some comparisons to back up your argument. Otherwise people are just going to thing you are immensely over exaggerating and totally not take any of your points seriously.



    -We don't know how many "Secret" prison camps have been set up, DO WE?

    -We don't know what is being done to people in these "Secret" prison camps, DO WE?

    -We don't know WHO has oversight at these "Secret" prison camps, DO WE?

    The fact that the United States of America is a willing initiator and partner in these "Secret" prison camps, puts us on par with Nazi Germany and SS tactics. Until and when the veil of secrecy is lifted we, as Nation, wouldn't know what was done in our name. WILL WE!!!
    SIN EATERS--We take the moral excrement we find in this equation and we bury it down deep inside of us so that the rest of our case can stay pure. That is the job. We are morally indefensible and absolutely necessary.
  • LikeAnOpeningBandForTheSun
    LikeAnOpeningBandForTheSun Posts: 6,097
    puremagic wrote:
    -We don't know how many "Secret" prison camps have been set up, DO WE?

    -We don't know what is being done to people in these "Secret" prison camps, DO WE?

    -We don't know WHO has oversight at these "Secret" prison camps, DO WE?

    The fact that the United States of America is a willing initiator and partner in these "Secret" prison camps, puts us on par with Nazi Germany and SS tactics. Until and when the veil of secrecy is lifted we, as Nation, wouldn't know what was done in our name. WILL WE!!!


    So because we don't know exactly what's going on, (well you dont, I'm pretty sure they aren't cooking people in ovens.) the US is automatically on par with Nazi Germany?


    thats fucking brilliant. very reasonable.

    oh shit. i dont know what my neighbor is doing! I can only logically assume that he's cooking meth and molesting children! I gotta call the police!

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