Must read: "Grunge is Dead" by Gary Prato

Hub.

+1

First of all, I’m French and I used to live in a small town, that may explain some of the following difficulties:

The early 90’s were a difficult time. I was 16 in 1991, and I remember the Boeing crisis (Seattle) and the rest of the economical one. We didn’t have the Internet and finding Grunge music in stores was, at that time, very hard (except Nirvana, Pearl Jam or Soundgarden). You can forget Mudhoney, Mother Love Bone and others, they weren’t famous enough here to be worth selling. We only had one Music TV Channel (hopefully, there was a show, very late, dealing with that kind of music).

But most of my friends, found ways to find new albums (when going to Paris or to England), and we developed a taste for it. We used to copy them on tapes.

I’m now one of the rare ones who continues listening to that kind of music. They grew up and forgot that time.

Nevertheless, it doesn’t prevent me from having nostalgia for that era. And maybe, even if it was harder to get information about grunge than it is today (internet is an important media), things seemed to be easier (because we were teenagers and were not really aware).

But maybe it’s due to the fact that I’m now 34 and I’m a victim of the "It was better before" syndrome.

For the Youngest ones, if you haven't seen it, you can watch this:

indifferentman

PJ Fan est. 1990 wrote:

i'm not talking about the social issues...i'm just saying that the LIFE STYLE is one i envy...not social issues or anything of that sort...just the clothes, the music...we have it so easy with technology today, i envy the days when we would "rough it"...i mean look at what convenience has done to us. the invention of the internet has done nothing but DECREASE reading comprehension levels because kids these days only skim-read what's on the internet...kids are downloading their music and not fully understanding what it truly means to hold the physical CD/record/cassette in your hands...so in regards to your second paragraph, i envy those who had to rough it as teens. and just the aura of the times...how...gritty and well, grungy, it was...it's much more appealing to me than aura of today...i mean even from a toddler's POV, what i can remember from that time, i miss dearly

This is a really good point here. The one thing we didn't have back then was the internet, and a broadening spectrum of exposure to new music. Back in my day, even after Cds were popular, the way you discovered new music was through your immediate circle of friends. Even though most people had CDs, you'd ask your friends that had a new CD to "tape it for you". I have very fond memories of some of the tapes I got from friends and WHEN. Like listening to Nirvana Unplugged form a TAPE my friend made by recording it off of the TV when Nirvana Unplugged first aired on TV, and months and months before they released the album itself. I got exposed to LOTS of bands I loved today by asking people I knew to make me tapes. If you didn't hear about new bands from your immediate circle of friends and your local record store sucked, you didn't know bands existed. Now I find someone with similar musical tastes, and we trade external hard drives for an afternoon and I download ANYTHING they own within a short period of time.

Hell, I spend half my time these days discovering new bands, and half my time exposing myself to PREDECESSORS of Grunge and today's music like Sonic Youth, The Pixies, Pavement, Guided By Voices, Sebadoh, etc. All this stuff I had no idea existed back then because I lived in a very isolated and rural area that was touched by nothing else then the very most mainstream of music that made it to radio and MTV. If I had discovered some of these bands and albums back then, it would have DRASTICALLY influenced the music I listened to now. If nothing else, I would have found the right message at the right time in my life. Much like Pearl Jam's music has been a "soundtrack to my life", I look at the albums of bands I really appreciate now and can't help but think "Fuck, if I only heard this album back when it first came out", it might have really changed my outlook on life itself back then.

Kids today have it good in that regard. Yes if you grew up after Grunge died and you considered Grunge to be the "Pinnacle of Music" then you missed the boat, but on the other hand you have so much more exposure to music then "old folks" like me had back then.

vedhead011

So....I am in the middle of "Grunge is Dead" and can also vouch for it's awesomeness. To the original poster, and everyone else, Prato's book about Shannon Hoon and Blind Melon is absolutely fantastic. I'd say it's even better, but I don't want to start a comparison between the two. All I will say, officially, is that if you liked Grunge is Dead you'll love the Blind Melon book. While both are fantastic and offer knowledge from the sources in their unique structure (chronological quotes), it's possible that the Blind Melon book benefits from having a narrower scope. All in all, tremendous resources, great stories, please check them both out.

HeavyHands

vedhead011 wrote:

All in all, tremendous resources, great stories, please check them both out.

Thanks for the recommendation. I'll be sure to pick it up.

Mrs.Vedder78

vedhead011 wrote:

So....I am in the middle of "Grunge is Dead" and can also vouch for it's awesomeness. To the original poster, and everyone else, Prato's book about Shannon Hoon and Blind Melon is absolutely fantastic. I'd say it's even better, but I don't want to start a comparison between the two. All I will say, officially, is that if you liked Grunge is Dead you'll love the Blind Melon book. While both are fantastic and offer knowledge from the sources in their unique structure (chronological quotes), it's possible that the Blind Melon book benefits from having a narrower scope. All in all, tremendous resources, great stories, please check them both out.

The blind melon book is amazing, I read it in a weekend!

vedhead011

Mrs.Vedder78 wrote:

vedhead011 wrote:

So....I am in the middle of "Grunge is Dead" and can also vouch for it's awesomeness. To the original poster, and everyone else, Prato's book about Shannon Hoon and Blind Melon is absolutely fantastic. I'd say it's even better, but I don't want to start a comparison between the two. All I will say, officially, is that if you liked Grunge is Dead you'll love the Blind Melon book. While both are fantastic and offer knowledge from the sources in their unique structure (chronological quotes), it's possible that the Blind Melon book benefits from having a narrower scope. All in all, tremendous resources, great stories, please check them both out.

The blind melon book is amazing, I read it in a weekend!

I know exactly what you mean, I got in done in a 30 hour span that also included bathing, eating, sleeping, and parenting. It was like listening to all those people have a conversation...

Vedd Hedd

HeavyHands wrote:

Back_Pedal wrote:

I can't believe I was born in '92...would've been nice going to high school during the grunge era. In 2009 there's no one in my age group that shares the same passion...

PJ Fan est. 1990 wrote:

born in 90 myself...*coughdisplaynamecough* and yeah i totally wish i was a teenager in the early 90's...as well as i wish i was a teen/early 20's during the 60's...both great times to be teens...now it just sucks...

Really, guys? The time-to-be-alive was better because a few albums that came out then?

Not trying to mock you or anything of the like, but from my perspective that's a really odd thing to be saying. I understand that you wish you were there at the "beginning" of PJ as a band but don't think that it was any easier for teenagers to get along with or relate to others of the same age (schoolmates) back then. Kids then had the same problems kids today have. Drug abuse, social pressure, split homes, a depressed economy, etc... Name it and I'm willing to bet that little has changed. If you don't know it now you will years from now: At some point growing up sucks for everyone because of XXXXXX (something or another. insert problem here, it doesn't really matter what). I bet you could sit your parents down and hear from them how they dealt with many of the same things which you are now. Heck, they'd probably get a kick out of you showing personal interest in their lives as teenagers. If you're feeling ostracized, reach out to someone. I guarantee you're not alone.

Aside from hearing some really great music back then (which I also hear these days btw... I just finally picked Kings of Leon's newest) my take is that the world wasn't really any better or worse back then, than it is now. Remember Darfur (Sudan) from the news lately? To draw a parallel I'm sure you can go back and find news reports or old video footage of the genocide in Rwanda (1994) if you'd like. I remember watching news footage of a river so choked with bodies that I recall observing that I probably could've walked across it without getting wet. And then six months later Vitalogy came out... Awesome! (sorry for the sarcasm, but I think you understand the point )

You know what? Actually you guys do have it better than teenagers did back then. You can go to the store and buy eight original PJ albums, a two disc B-sides compilation, umpteen live albums, a greatest hits package, and live concert dvd's to listen to and watch and on an iPod no less. And whatever you can't find in person you can find online (which didn't exist then). You have an entire career to catch up on and digest. Teenagers in 1991 had one album. And they only had it in the latter half of the year. And for most, it was on tape. Which was promptly eaten by the tape deck.

Thats. About. It.

Be grateful for what you've got because someone else always has it worse.

I agree with all of this, but the only difference is that we had the music to cope with all of that.

Today, its either complete pop, or pop-punk, if there is such a thing. Its all so watered down.

Listening to PJ Alice in Chains, etc made it easier to deal with those issues because you felt there was someone on your side.

Vedd Hedd

Also, what I miss most is people have forgotten how to listen to music.

People only listen to music when they are in the car, doing housework, at a bar, or playing video games.

Me and my friends used to sit around and......listen to music. Just to listen to the music.

People dont do that anymore. If you invite someone over to your house to listen to music, you have to have the TV on, play a game, etc.

People now have the attention span of houseflies.

HeavyHands

Vedd Hedd wrote:

...but the only difference is that we had the music to cope with all of that.

Today, its either complete pop, or pop-punk, if there is such a thing. Its all so watered down.

Listening to PJ Alice in Chains, etc made it easier to deal with those issues because you felt there was someone on your side.

I understand what you're saying and agree. There are two differences I really see.

1. One is that MTV doesn't play any videos from those two bands so there is virtually no visibility within the teen/youth age group. As a result the original observations by other posters about them wishing other people their age were into PJ (or at least "good" music).

2. Don't kids today also have the same music to cope with that we did? They can still listen to PJ's or AIC's first albums and relate to them if they so choose. The only additional struggle I see with this is that because of the first point above they'll have to dig a little bit to discover some music that is different that what they are normally exposed to ("complete pop, or pop-punk"). We did the same, but instead of going on the internet and having the world at our fingertips we had to go through our parent's vinyl collection and hope they had more than Barbara Streisand, the Monkees, and a Johnny Mathis Christmas album.

Vedd Hedd wrote:

Also, what I miss most is people have forgotten how to listen to music.

People only listen to music when they are in the car, doing housework, at a bar, or playing video games.

Me and my friends used to sit around and......listen to music. Just to listen to the music.

People dont do that anymore. If you invite someone over to your house to listen to music, you have to have the TV on, play a game, etc.

People now have the attention span of houseflies.

I understand what you're saying. I really feel this is true as well, but only for me. I don't honestly know if it is true en mass. Just because our lives may have changed whereas we now have less "free time" in which to listen to an album or music in general doesn't mean that other people still don't.

I also don't honestly know if teenagers lives are really any more busy than they were 20 years ago. Sure there's the internet now, but part-time jobs, after school sports, hobbies, girls/boys, chores, theater/drama, homework/studying, socializing, video games, movies, music, magazines, road trips, etc... all these things existed back then. Part of me just thinks that the experience of growing up is one in which you go through a phase where it is natural to romanticize the past and think about how much "nicer/simpler/easier/etc..." it was "back then" when, in fact, it seems to me that is just not the case at all. People in the great depression didn't have cars, jobs, after school sports, the internet, or any of the modern conveniences and they're lives were pretty darn hard and stressful.

OffHeGoes29

Well any time is the "time to be alive". I just feel bad for kids today, nothing good comes out on main stream radio. I was in middle school and remember great albums coming out growing up. I remember taking my bike across two towns just to go to the record store to buy my first CD, because most of us still used cassette tapes back the, to buy No Code. Even as late as 95-97 albums still kicked ass, ie Mad Season, No Code, Down on the Upside, One Hot minute, Evil Empire, I could keep going. We had awsome rollmodels back then, Bevis and Butthead, playing Doom until 4 AM, albums were still kick ass. It just seemed that after Columbine took place, it all fell through, thats when all that bubble gum pop bs hit the fan, then grunge was offically dead by my account (and others as well, read "How Gen. X Saves the world").

Vedd Hedd

HeavyHands wrote:

Vedd Hedd wrote:

...but the only difference is that we had the music to cope with all of that.

Today, its either complete pop, or pop-punk, if there is such a thing. Its all so watered down.

Listening to PJ Alice in Chains, etc made it easier to deal with those issues because you felt there was someone on your side.

I understand what you're saying and agree. There are two differences I really see.

1. One is that MTV doesn't play any videos from those two bands so there is virtually no visibility within the teen/youth age group. As a result the original observations by other posters about them wishing other people their age were into PJ (or at least "good" music).

2. Don't kids today also have the same music to cope with that we did? They can still listen to PJ's or AIC's first albums and relate to them if they so choose. The only additional struggle I see with this is that because of the first point above they'll have to dig a little bit to discover some music that is different that what they are normally exposed to ("complete pop, or pop-punk"). We did the same, but instead of going on the internet and having the world at our fingertips we had to go through our parent's vinyl collection and hope they had more than Barbara Streisand, the Monkees, and a Johnny Mathis Christmas album.

Vedd Hedd wrote:

Also, what I miss most is people have forgotten how to listen to music.

People only listen to music when they are in the car, doing housework, at a bar, or playing video games.

Me and my friends used to sit around and......listen to music. Just to listen to the music.

People dont do that anymore. If you invite someone over to your house to listen to music, you have to have the TV on, play a game, etc.

People now have the attention span of houseflies.

I understand what you're saying. I really feel this is true as well, but only for me. I don't honestly know if it is true en mass. Just because our lives may have changed whereas we now have less "free time" in which to listen to an album or music in general doesn't mean that other people still don't.

I also don't honestly know if teenagers lives are really any more busy than they were 20 years ago. Sure there's the internet now, but part-time jobs, after school sports, hobbies, girls/boys, chores, theater/drama, homework/studying, socializing, video games, movies, music, magazines, road trips, etc... all these things existed back then. Part of me just thinks that the experience of growing up is one in which you go through a phase where it is natural to romanticize the past and think about how much "nicer/simpler/easier/etc..." it was "back then" when, in fact, it seems to me that is just not the case at all. People in the great depression didn't have cars, jobs, after school sports, the internet, or any of the modern conveniences and they're lives were pretty darn hard and stressful.

I agree that people tend to romanticize the past. However, while kids today HAVE the same music we do, it was much more readily availalbe back then. And it was much more widely accepted.

Even though I like the WHo, Neil Young, etc, I still wasnt really alive during the period that music was released, so its till not "mine", so to speak.

HeavyHands

Vedd Hedd wrote:

Even though I like the WHo, Neil Young, etc, I still wasnt really alive during the period that music was released, so its till not "mine", so to speak.

Well said. I think this probably gets to the heart of the matter pretty effectively.

Every five years or so I start looking around for the next "great impact" to be made by a rock band. I never hear or see it though. It seems as if mass media hasn't been able to latch on to anything significant since 1991/1992 (they tried like hell with the Strokes). I am always wondering if there will be another band/group of bands that make the same musical impact as PJ/AIC/Nirvana/Soundgarden.

pjhawks

kids today might have the same music to listen to but it's not the same as hearing it when it's new. the early to mid 90s was an awesome time because it was fresh. Hearing PJ, Nirvana, AIC, etc. as they hit the mainstream and came out with new music was incredibly exciting. I still remember when Vs. was released and the excitement of that album. I can remember hearing Daugther and being blown away (especially since I thought In Utero sucked) and having to listen to it everytime i was in my car. I'd pop that tape in (still have the tape that has 'five against one' listed as the album title on the actual cassette) and blast the fucker everytime. There are a number of songs from that era that I identify by how and where I used to hear them. It definitely is greater to experience music as it is being defined then years later even if years later it is still great music.

pjten77

This thread is one of the best reads that's been on here in years!!!!!

I was lucky enough to be 14 in 1990 when I started high school. talk about lucky timing as I got to experience it all from day one. One thing I've noticed since about 99-2000 when Napster first hit the scene is that music is no longer categorized by "scenes" or places. In the sixties it was San Fransisco or Greenwich Village in New York or Britain. In the seventies there was Rock out of Detroit, Punk in England, the horrible Disco scene. The 80's was all about LA hair bands and the 90's really focused on Seatlle, and the many imitators around the world.

Now a days it seems the Internet has taken access to music and created thousands of little tribes. We all can access bands and music instantly that we would never have been able to in the past. there is no such thing as a "Scene" anymore for kids to gravitate towards as technology has provided almost too many choices.....although it's awesome that we get any type of music from any part of the world in our living rooms instantly, I do miss following the scenes that use to evolve.

Almost anyone can get discovered from Youtube, their MySpace page. There's no need to go out and play the bar scene and pray that some AR guy is going to come see your band and dig your sounds to get a contract. Grunge was/is probably the last scene in history in which bands took this route. The Internet has changed the way bands record/distribute and promote themselves........I guess I was glad to experience the short blast that was Grunge. The best thing was that the musicians were real people that a lot of us could relate to, they weren't manufactured, talentless photo shoot babies. Thank God PJ survived it all!!!1

pjhawks

HeavyHands wrote:

Vedd Hedd wrote:

Even though I like the WHo, Neil Young, etc, I still wasnt really alive during the period that music was released, so its till not "mine", so to speak.

Well said. I think this probably gets to the heart of the matter pretty effectively.

Every five years or so I start looking around for the next "great impact" to be made by a rock band. I never hear or see it though. It seems as if mass media hasn't been able to latch on to anything significant since 1991/1992 (they tried like hell with the Strokes). I am always wondering if there will be another band/group of bands that make the same musical impact as PJ/AIC/Nirvana/Soundgarden.

No doubt there will be. History shows that harsh economic times and a disconnect with social policies and governments leads to great music. The past few years will lead to a movement of more angry and aggressive music. As the high schoola and college kids of today get out into the world and realized they are fucked because of the economy and such they will turn to more aggressive music. I fully expect the next 'Nevermind' or "Born in the USA' to shake the music scene up over the next few years.

soulsinging

pjhawks wrote:

No doubt there will be. History shows that harsh economic times and a disconnect with social policies and governments leads to great music. The past few years will lead to a movement of more angry and aggressive music. As the high schoola and college kids of today get out into the world and realized they are fucked because of the economy and such they will turn to more aggressive music. I fully expect the next 'Nevermind' or "Born in the USA' to shake the music scene up over the next few years.

I don't know about that. The 60s and Vietnam kicked off a lot of good shit, then the Gulf War preceded grunge. What did the Iraq War gives us? Jack shit. Economic downturns... uh, the late 70s and 80s gave us... hair metal? Arena cock rock? I rather doubt the shit economy right now is going to do music any good.

HeavyHands

soulsinging wrote:

pjhawks wrote:

No doubt there will be. History shows that harsh economic times and a disconnect with social policies and governments leads to great music. The past few years will lead to a movement of more angry and aggressive music. As the high schoola and college kids of today get out into the world and realized they are fucked because of the economy and such they will turn to more aggressive music. I fully expect the next 'Nevermind' or "Born in the USA' to shake the music scene up over the next few years.

I don't know about that. The 60s and Vietnam kicked off a lot of good shit, then the Gulf War preceded grunge. What did the Iraq War gives us? Jack shit. Economic downturns... uh, the late 70s and 80s gave us... hair metal? Arena cock rock? I rather doubt the shit economy right now is going to do music any good.

I think with respect to pjhawks ideas about the conditions being what they are to influence new artists... he's correct. But I also agree with soulsinging's idea that one variable (the economy) influencing artists and putting new bands/music over the top into mass cultural (not popular) acceptance is not enough. I think with all that's been written about what lead up to the musical fertility in Seattle in 90/91/92, there is a pretty good indication that there has to be a multitude of variables and influencing factors. Without conducting my own in-depth research, economics does seem to be one of those variables.

HeavyHands

pjten77 wrote:

One thing I've noticed since about 99-2000 when Napster first hit the scene is that music is no longer categorized by "scenes" or places.

This is a really interesting observation and not one that I have thought about. Isn't it true though that Saddle Creek was trying to do this (at least through their marketing strategy)?

pjten77 wrote:

There is no such thing as a "Scene" anymore for kids to gravitate towards as technology has provided almost too many choices.....although it's awesome that we get any type of music from any part of the world in our living rooms instantly, I do miss following the scenes that use to evolve.

On the whole, I don't know if I can totally agree with you. I wonder if it's possible that the traditional narrow definition of a "scene" is no longer relevant, and that it's just being redefined in a wider way such that we can't accurately recognize it right now. I still have to think that bands who play locally on a regular basis form relationships with each other and influence each other through physical interaction more than watching something online.

pjten77 wrote:

Thank God PJ survived it all!!!

+1!

pjhawks

soulsinging wrote:

pjhawks wrote:

No doubt there will be. History shows that harsh economic times and a disconnect with social policies and governments leads to great music. The past few years will lead to a movement of more angry and aggressive music. As the high schoola and college kids of today get out into the world and realized they are fucked because of the economy and such they will turn to more aggressive music. I fully expect the next 'Nevermind' or "Born in the USA' to shake the music scene up over the next few years.

I don't know about that. The 60s and Vietnam kicked off a lot of good shit, then the Gulf War preceded grunge. What did the Iraq War gives us? Jack shit. Economic downturns... uh, the late 70s and 80s gave us... hair metal? Arena cock rock? I rather doubt the shit economy right now is going to do music any good.

well you could argue that the IraqI War gave us 'American Idiot' which was a huge rock album (whether you enjoyed it or not). For an era where huge record sales lag American Idiot sold a huge number of records in comparison to the era (or seems to me it did, I don't have the numbers in front of me). Now that is only one album and doesn't indicate a shift from the crap hip hop r&b music in the mainstream as of yet. In my opinion though we will be seeing a shift to more rock music in the near future and a new era of rock music. I sense it coming.

Thoughts_Arrive

^ ^ I hope you are right, this is killing me.
I want something huge like grunge in my youth, I am not getting younger.