Pictures from Iraq

VINNY GOOMBA

prfctlefts wrote:

Commy wrote:

prfctlefts wrote:

So commy dont you think we should have just let him and his son's uday and qusay keep wreaking havoc,raping women while their husbands watched TORTURING AND KILLING INNOCENT PEOPLE ? Sounds like they were real nice people. :roll:

Do you think Saddam's sons would have been the right people to deal with a murder in Canada or Mexico?
probably not. the guys entire family would have probably been raped and tortured.

Much like the US and Britain were the wrong guys to deal with the crimes of Saddam.
All of Iraq was raped and tortured


But none of this is about saving Iraq or removing a dictator.

Today, the US is supporting a FAR worse regime in Turkey. And Colombia is no picnic either. TODAY.

Why haven't they been invaded to "save" the people from being tortured and killed?





Iraq was about oil. not about people.

so who should have dealt with saddam? surely not the Iraqis.. they were and still are terrified of him even to this day even though he's dead.

what Regime in turkey are we supporting ?

Iraq was not about oil we haven't gotten a damn drop any cheaper then it was before the damn war.

All countries have to deal with their leadership themselves-- even if that requires revolution.

Also, a war can be fought (in part) about oil without the price going down. Just because new pipelines and oil fields are available to multi-national corporations doesn't mean they have to gouge you any less once they acquire them.

Commy

what Regime in turkey are we supporting ?

The one that has killed tens of thousands of Kurds.


Its still going on today.


I wish I had a copy of the letter i got from a political prisoner in Turkey. It was part of an Amnesty International campiagn, part of it involved writing letters to this guy, a political prisoner.

And what he said about all the letters he received in his cell (I don't know if he read mine) was the most powerful thing I have ever read in my life. I have it somewhere.

He was freed, mainly because of Amnesty.

But he's one.

There's are thousands more.

Commy

VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

]

All countries have to deal with their leadership themselves-- even if that requires revolution.

I agree.


the best way to deal with guys like Saddam and his sons is to not support them in the first place.

Dictators tend not to last long without outside help/.

Let the people decide their own fate.

jlew24asu

Commy wrote:

the best way to deal with guys like Saddam and his sons is to not support them in the first place.

Dictators tend not to last long without outside help/.

I agree. we should have never got involved during the 80s. that was a huge mistake

Commy wrote:

Let the people decide their own fate.

they tried and were slaughted.

soulsinging

jlew24asu wrote:

Commy wrote:

the best way to deal with guys like Saddam and his sons is to not support them in the first place.

Dictators tend not to last long without outside help/.

I agree. we should have never got involved during the 80s. that was a huge mistake.

I think that's the core of the argument here about looking at "our" faults as opposed to blaming Saddam. Saddam was a bastard, no doubt. But the point is that since the 80s and even before, we have done nothing but fuck up in the Middle East. It's been one blunder after another... revolution in Iran, backing Saddam, training Bin Laden... the list goes on. Our track record on "helping" the people of the Islamic world is pretty shit. I think the basic argument here is that we clearly simply don't get the Muslim world, and perhaps it's time we stopped getting involved in shit over there and let them deal with their own affairs. Everything we try to do there becomes a huge clusterfuck and only breeds further resentment of the US and more terrorist sympathizers.

Abuskedti

its wise to kill a million to arrest a man that had not killed even 25,000 in the last 10 years?

jlew24asu

soulsinging wrote:

jlew24asu wrote:

Commy wrote:

the best way to deal with guys like Saddam and his sons is to not support them in the first place.

Dictators tend not to last long without outside help/.

I agree. we should have never got involved during the 80s. that was a huge mistake.

I think that's the core of the argument here about looking at "our" faults as opposed to blaming Saddam. Saddam was a bastard, no doubt. But the point is that since the 80s and even before, we have done nothing but fuck up in the Middle East. It's been one blunder after another... revolution in Iran, backing Saddam, training Bin Laden... the list goes on. Our track record on "helping" the people of the Islamic world is pretty shit. I think the basic argument here is that we clearly simply don't get the Muslim world, and perhaps it's time we stopped getting involved in shit over there and let them deal with their own affairs. Everything we try to do there becomes a huge clusterfuck and only breeds further resentment of the US and more terrorist sympathizers.

still need to be put in context on a case by case basis. take Afghanistan for example. sure we "created" bin laden so to speak, but we were doing the right thing when we were helping the afgans get the Soviets out of the country. Charlie Wilsons War was a very informative movie. the soviets were slaughtering those people and the world didnt give a fuck. one US congressman took it upon himself to help them. and it actually worked...but as seen in the movie, mistakes were made once the war was over, but thats we had already spent billions.

and the whole Iran/Iraq thing. Iran was very much a sworn enemy of ours in 1980 with the hostages and Islamic Revolution. Saddam had already started a war (without our involvement), and we simply took sides. Saddam invaded in 80, we didnt get involved until 82. In this fucked up world we live in, sometimes we are forced to do things that are in our best interest. and like it or not, OIL is vital to our survival. we've been forced to take sides and be involved in the middle east since oil was discovered.

and its my personal opinion that our involvement in the region is an overall good thing when we push for "American Democracy"...which is essentially freedom. I've studied and read alot about hardcore Islam. its very fucked up and practiced in many countries over there...I think history will prove the Iraq war to be a good thing ( I HOPE, I HOPE, I HOPE). Iraq has a chance at being the first and only country in the region to experience Freedom.

have you seen the Taliban resurgence in Pakistan? They are torturing young children and women...enforcing the strictest of Islamic Law on them. Personally, I dont think we should just wash our hands of it and say "well if thats how they want to live, its none of my business"..we need to support those who support Freedom.

jlew24asu

Abuskedti wrote:

its wise to kill a million to arrest a man that had not killed even 25,000 in the last 10 years?

I love how this 1 million gets thrown around like poker chips. but you're right, since he didnt reach the 25,000 plateau in awhile, he was probably a good guy and should have been left alone.

soulsinging

jlew24asu wrote:

still need to be put in context on a case by case basis. take Afghanistan for example. sure we "created" bin laden so to speak, but we were doing the right thing when we were helping the afgans get the Soviets out of the country. Charlie Wilsons War was a very informative movie. the soviets were slaughtering those people and the world didnt give a fuck. one US congressman took it upon himself to help them. and it actually worked...but as seen in the movie, mistakes were made once the war was over, but thats we had already spent billions.

and the whole Iran/Iraq thing. Iran was very much a sworn enemy of ours in 1980 with the hostages and Islamic Revolution. Saddam had already started a war (without our involvement), and we simply took sides. Saddam invaded in 80, we didnt get involved until 82. In this fucked up world we live in, sometimes we are forced to do things that are in our best interest. and like it or not, OIL is vital to our survival. we've been forced to take sides and be involved in the middle east since oil was discovered.

and its my personal opinion that our involvement in the region is an overall good thing when we push for "American Democracy"...which is essentially freedom. I've studied and read alot about hardcore Islam. its very fucked up and practiced in many countries over there...I think history will prove the Iraq war to be a good thing ( I HOPE, I HOPE, I HOPE). Iraq has a chance at being the first and only country in the region to experience Freedom.

have you seen the Taliban resurgence in Pakistan? They are torturing young children and women...enforcing the strictest of Islamic Law on them. Personally, I dont think we should just wash our hands of it and say "well if thats how they want to live, its none of my business"..we need to support those who support Freedom.

You like to throw around the word context, but the context you don't get is that are pushing for "American democracy" is not seen by the Muslim world as spreading freedom... it's seen as imperialism and unwanted meddling. There is a world of difference between stopping genocide and other humanitarian causes and in exploiting foreign countries for our own economic gain. Don't sit there and tell me this is about freedom and protecting women and children. Women and children are being tortured and abused to a much greater extent in Africa, but we don't lift a finger to help them. Our involvement in the middle east is not about protecting women or children or promoting freedom, it's about oil and money. Period.

Even Afghanistan... you mention Charlie Wilson's War. Yes, there was humanitarian abuse. But if we were all about protecting innocents and promoting freedom, why did we bail on them as soon as the Russians took a military hit? Because we didn't give a flying fuck about the people of Afghanistan or their freedom, we cared about taking out an economic competitor. That's plainly acknowledged in that movie.

So don't tell me our involvement in the Middle East is some big love fest where we're looking out for the little guys. It's exploitative. And it's the very attitude you espouse here (that these poor backwards savages just need our guidance to become civilized and "fix" their fucked up religion) that causes things like 9/11, the USS Cole, and a general disdain for the US in the Muslim world. And I know this not from watching American movies giving the American slant on how wonderful we are to go into Afghanistan and push our American democracy on them, I know this from visiting Islamic countries and talking to Islamic people. Even the Islamic feminists fighting hard to change the misogynistic tendencies (which are plenty present in Christianity by the way) dislike the US's meddling in Islamic affairs. They don't WANT our "help." They want to change things for themselves.

jlew24asu

soulsinging wrote:

jlew24asu wrote:

still need to be put in context on a case by case basis. take Afghanistan for example. sure we "created" bin laden so to speak, but we were doing the right thing when we were helping the afgans get the Soviets out of the country. Charlie Wilsons War was a very informative movie. the soviets were slaughtering those people and the world didnt give a fuck. one US congressman took it upon himself to help them. and it actually worked...but as seen in the movie, mistakes were made once the war was over, but thats we had already spent billions.

and the whole Iran/Iraq thing. Iran was very much a sworn enemy of ours in 1980 with the hostages and Islamic Revolution. Saddam had already started a war (without our involvement), and we simply took sides. Saddam invaded in 80, we didnt get involved until 82. In this fucked up world we live in, sometimes we are forced to do things that are in our best interest. and like it or not, OIL is vital to our survival. we've been forced to take sides and be involved in the middle east since oil was discovered.

and its my personal opinion that our involvement in the region is an overall good thing when we push for "American Democracy"...which is essentially freedom. I've studied and read alot about hardcore Islam. its very fucked up and practiced in many countries over there...I think history will prove the Iraq war to be a good thing ( I HOPE, I HOPE, I HOPE). Iraq has a chance at being the first and only country in the region to experience Freedom.

have you seen the Taliban resurgence in Pakistan? They are torturing young children and women...enforcing the strictest of Islamic Law on them. Personally, I dont think we should just wash our hands of it and say "well if thats how they want to live, its none of my business"..we need to support those who support Freedom.

You like to throw around the word context, but the context you don't get is that are pushing for "American democracy" is not seen by the Muslim world as spreading freedom... it's seen as imperialism and unwanted meddling. There is a world of difference between stopping genocide and other humanitarian causes and in exploiting foreign countries for our own economic gain. Don't sit there and tell me this is about freedom and protecting women and children. Women and children are being tortured and abused to a much greater extent in Africa, but we don't lift a finger to help them. Our involvement in the middle east is not about protecting women or children or promoting freedom, it's about oil and money. Period.

Even Afghanistan... you mention Charlie Wilson's War. Yes, there was humanitarian abuse. But if we were all about protecting innocents and promoting freedom, why did we bail on them as soon as the Russians took a military hit? Because we didn't give a flying fuck about the people of Afghanistan or their freedom, we cared about taking out an economic competitor. That's plainly acknowledged in that movie.

So don't tell me our involvement in the Middle East is some big love fest where we're looking out for the little guys. It's exploitative. And it's the very attitude you espouse here (that these poor backwards savages just need our guidance to become civilized and "fix" their fucked up religion) that causes things like 9/11, the USS Cole, and a general disdain for the US in the Muslim world. And I know this not from watching American movies giving the American slant on how wonderful we are to go into Afghanistan and push our American democracy on them, I know this from visiting Islamic countries and talking to Islamic people. Even the Islamic feminists fighting hard to change the misogynistic tendencies (which are plenty present in Christianity by the way) dislike the US's meddling in Islamic affairs. They don't WANT our "help." They want to change things for themselves.

I largely agree but I feel there is also truth in what I said. we can only do so much and go so far, sometimes we fall short.. We went to Afganistan to defeat an enemy and free the Afgans. We went to Iraq to protect our Oil interests and free Iraq from Saddam. and I'll call bullshit on your so called Islamic travels. where have you been? Detroit? that doesnt count. I highly doubt you are some expert on what they want. There are many people in the muslim world who consider us friends. secondly, women or anyone who speaks out against people like Saddam or the Taliban are tortured and killed. they cant help themselves.

I have a friend who's father did alot of business overseas. He was sitting in a restaurant in London when a Kuwaiti came up to him and thanked him simply because he was American. the Kuwaitis love us....as do many Iraqis who were tortured in Iraq and many Afgans who suffered under the Taliban.

you and Commy seem to think America is the root of all evil and we help no one. that simply not true.

and dont bring up Africa. America is the biggest supporter of Africa. you just like to think we arent doing anything because we dont have troops on the ground fighting wars there.

Commy

Abuskedti wrote:

its wise to kill a million to arrest a man that had not killed even 25,000 in the last 10 years?

yeah doesn't make a lot of sense does it? when put in that context. it does when its put in the correct context. such as oil is more valuable than people.

It why we should be questioning the US right to even get involved. We can check their track record if there are any doubts as to the motives behind all of these interventions/.

There is a precedent for all of this. About 25 of them. mostly in South America...like when the US took it upon itself to save the people of Nicaragua from communism. Never mind the fact that the Nicaraguan people voted in the Sandanistas in elections that were considered fair, by outside observers. And typical results...the people became poorer, the gov't more repressive, life just generally got shittier.

And in nearly every case of bringing "western democracy" to a country, that happens.

Life just gets shittier for everyone involved. but the country is controlled, and its resources free to be exploited-and that's the bottom line.




Jlew-research the Afghan trap if you think the US motives in Afghanistan were altruistic. The US treated the entire country as a booby trap for the soviets, never mind the cost.

jlew24asu

Commy wrote:

Abuskedti wrote:

its wise to kill a million to arrest a man that had not killed even 25,000 in the last 10 years?

yeah doesn't make a lot of sense does it? when put in that context. it does when its put in the correct context. such as oil is more valuable than people.

It why we should be questioning the US right to even get involved. We can check their track record if there are any doubts as to the motives behind all of these interventions/.

There is a precedent for all of this. About 25 of them. mostly in South America...like when the US took it upon itself to save the people of Nicaragua from communism. Never mind the fact that the Nicaraguan people voted in the Sandanistas in elections that were considered fair, by outside observers. And typical results...the people became poorer, the gov't more repressive, life just generally got shittier.

And in nearly every case of bringing "western democracy" to a country, that happens.

Life just gets shittier for everyone involved. but the country is controlled, and its resources free to be exploited-and that's the bottom line.

first of all, the US didnt kill one million Iraqis. stop spreading this bullshit garbage propaganda. The US has many motives for doing what it does. you and soul completely ignore the bigger picture and take whatever fits your negative view of the United States and multiply 10x.

Commy wrote:

Jlew-research the Afghan trap if you think the US motives in Afghanistan were altruistic. The US treated the entire country as a booby trap for the soviets, never mind the cost.

so I guess your going to tell me the CIA set up the whole war in Afghanistan.

Drowned Out

jlew24asu wrote:

Commy wrote:

Abuskedti wrote:

its wise to kill a million to arrest a man that had not killed even 25,000 in the last 10 years?

yeah doesn't make a lot of sense does it? when put in that context. it does when its put in the correct context. such as oil is more valuable than people.

It why we should be questioning the US right to even get involved. We can check their track record if there are any doubts as to the motives behind all of these interventions/.

There is a precedent for all of this. About 25 of them. mostly in South America...like when the US took it upon itself to save the people of Nicaragua from communism. Never mind the fact that the Nicaraguan people voted in the Sandanistas in elections that were considered fair, by outside observers. And typical results...the people became poorer, the gov't more repressive, life just generally got shittier.

And in nearly every case of bringing "western democracy" to a country, that happens.

Life just gets shittier for everyone involved. but the country is controlled, and its resources free to be exploited-and that's the bottom line.

first of all, the US didnt kill one million Iraqis. stop spreading this bullshit garbage propaganda. The US has many motives for doing what it does. you and soul completely ignore the bigger picture and take whatever fits your negative view of the United States and multiply 10x.

Commy wrote:

Jlew-research the Afghan trap if you think the US motives in Afghanistan were altruistic. The US treated the entire country as a booby trap for the soviets, never mind the cost.

so I guess your going to tell me the CIA set up the whole war in Afghanistan.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/BRZ110A.html

Question: The former director of the CIA, Robert Gates, stated in his memoirs ["From the Shadows"], that American intelligence services began to aid the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan 6 months before the Soviet intervention. In this period you were the national security adviser to President Carter. You therefore played a role in this affair. Is that correct?

Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention.

Q: Despite this risk, you were an advocate of this covert action. But perhaps you yourself desired this Soviet entry into war and looked to provoke it?

B: It isn't quite that. We didn't push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would.

Q: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn't believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don't regret anything today?

B: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter. We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.



now go ahead and tell us that it wasn’t the fault of the US, cause the Soviets took the bait….

WaveCameCrashin

last time I checked we were in Afghanistan to get rid of the Taliban and Al Qaeda and to keep them from plotting attacks against America. I wish we could bring all the troops home but we cant we have to finish the job. There are many grateful people b/c of our presence, just as there are some that don't want us their.If I had lost a loved one due to the war and US forces being present I probably wouldn't want US their either. But at the same time it would depend on if it was in vain or not




I think some of yous need to think about how fucked up the Taliban really is (sharia law) They took away peoples radio's TVs,children couldn't play games anymore , women being beaten half to death. ect...

Drowned Out

Funny thing about the afghan trap....the US is in it themselves now. And instead of zbig being a cocky douche about it, we have Bin Laden being a cocky douche about it....remember his statement that he would destroy the US financially by dragging them into a war on his turf???????

Commy

prfctlefts wrote:

last time I checked we were in Afghanistan to get rid of the Taliban and Al Qaeda and to keep them from plotting attacks against America. I wish we could bring all the troops home but we cant we have to finish the job. There are many grateful people b/c of our presence, just as there are some that don't want us their.If I had lost a loved one due to the war and US forces being present I probably wouldn't want US their either. But at the same time it would depend on if it was in vain or not




I think some of yous need to think about how fucked up the Taliban really is (sharia law) They took away peoples radio's TVs,children couldn't play games anymore , women being beaten half to death. ect...

its always a war against someone.


fighting
communism
drugs
terrorism
to liberate
for democracy

its always a war on something

same school different class.

the results are always the same, and never good for the people we "save".

WaveCameCrashin

Drowned Out wrote:

Funny thing about the afghan trap....the US is in it themselves now. And instead of zbig being a cocky douche about it, we have Bin Laden being a cocky douche about it....remember his statement that he would destroy the US financially by dragging them into a war on his turf???????

yep

WaveCameCrashin

Never good for the people we save? :roll: Okay I guess Europe would be better off under nazi rule? :roll: Dude you really need to think before posting somtimes.

soulsinging

jlew24asu wrote:

I largely agree but I feel there is also truth in what I said. we can only do so much and go so far, sometimes we fall short.. We went to Afganistan to defeat an enemy and free the Afgans. We went to Iraq to protect our Oil interests and free Iraq from Saddam. and I'll call bullshit on your so called Islamic travels. where have you been? Detroit? that doesnt count. I highly doubt you are some expert on what they want. There are many people in the muslim world who consider us friends. secondly, women or anyone who speaks out against people like Saddam or the Taliban are tortured and killed. they cant help themselves.

I have a friend who's father did alot of business overseas. He was sitting in a restaurant in London when a Kuwaiti came up to him and thanked him simply because he was American. the Kuwaitis love us....as do many Iraqis who were tortured in Iraq and many Afgans who suffered under the Taliban.

you and Commy seem to think America is the root of all evil and we help no one. that simply not true.

and dont bring up Africa. America is the biggest supporter of Africa. you just like to think we arent doing anything because we dont have troops on the ground fighting wars there.

I spent 3 weeks this spring in Morocco, that was after months studying the country and its political situation. While there I did a number of interviews with political figures, professors, human rights advocates, and even the US embassy employees. Morocco is one of the more friendly countries towards the US, and even they have serious problems with the US, its foreign policy, and our imperial practices (their words, not mine). A leading feminist there is fighting hard for rights for Moroccan women, and even she was opposed to US involvement there. We hurt their cause... as long as progress is seen as American meddling and not a change from within their own culture, nothing we do in the name of "helping" will ever succeed. Oh yeah, that woman was not tortured or killed. Though she has been put on trial and convicted. But let's not give any credence to any Islamic country that already shows progress when we've got such great stories about torture to demonize these people.

How's that for bullshit? But Detroit's nice too and all.

You know me better than to think I believe the US is the root of all evil. I'm a pragmatist, not some naive teary-eyed patriot. Our foreign policy towards the Muslim world sucks. We do some good here and there, but only when it's easy. We have to stay the course in Iraq, but we get our military the fuck out of any African situation as fast as we can. Why? Because there's no return on the latter investment. We write checks to send food to Africa, but we're sure as hell not going to make sure it gets to the people rather than the warlords, because it's not worth our money or effort. Iraq is. Not because we're noble or interesting in helping, but because we can profit off the latter.

As to our multiple goals in Iraq and Afghanistan... kinda telling that once the one goal is met, the other becomes irrelevant isn't it? Kinda makes you wonder if the humanitarian reason is just a pretext, since it's always abandoned as soon as the economic one is achieved.

soulsinging

prfctlefts wrote:

last time I checked we were in Afghanistan to get rid of the Taliban and Al Qaeda and to keep them from plotting attacks against America. I wish we could bring all the troops home but we cant we have to finish the job. There are many grateful people b/c of our presence, just as there are some that don't want us their.If I had lost a loved one due to the war and US forces being present I probably wouldn't want US their either. But at the same time it would depend on if it was in vain or not

I think some of yous need to think about how fucked up the Taliban really is (sharia law) They took away peoples radio's TVs,children couldn't play games anymore , women being beaten half to death. ect...

I'm well aware of how fucked up the Taliban is. I was researching and railing against them BEFORE 9/11 happened. But if you think we're over there for purely charitable humanitarian reasons, you're nuts.