Karl Marx was right all along (about capitalism)

Commy

"Marx argued that capitalism is inherently unstable, fraught with contradictions and prone to deep crises."


sound familiar?

According to standard capitalist doctrine things like wars, hunger, and poverty will work themselves out through market practices-according to Marx they are by-products of the system. given the current state of affairs, it seems he was right all along.

According to Marx, capitalism is an economic system profoundly at odds with a sustainable planet. The exploitation of nature is as fundamental to the profit system, he argued, as the exploitation of working people.

which is all very accurate. just in the US, wages have stagnated since the 70's. and now detroit auto workers have had to re-negotiate their contracts-just to continue to keep operating. (notice the wall street execs were able to hide behind their contracts). exploitation of labor. look to the third world, where jobs are being shipped to the poorest countries to take advantage of their miserable conditions, through wages/environmental laws etc.\


and here we are, in the midst of one of the worst economic disasters since the great depression. maybe there is some to this socialism thing after all?




more...
http://climateandcapitalism.com/?p=638

FiveB247x

He was absolutely correct about those things, but his communist theory was not. I believe in soft socialism - strong government oversight over the market in order to bring about progress and growth for the entire society's well being (economically and socially).

dcfaithful

Communism sounds good on paper...but all that have tried it can't graspt he concept the way Marx intended it....

IMO

Commy

dcfaithful wrote:

Communism sounds good on paper...but all that have tried it can't graspt he concept the way Marx intended it....

IMO

i agree. i think marx was wrong about communism in general, but his critique of capitalism is right on.

Abookamongstthemany

Most systems sound good on paper...but which countries are the ones who seem flourish and remain the most stable/best to live at overall?

http://www.resourcesforlife.com/docs/item1351

Lesbelges

Like most things, neither extremes work well.

Capitalism in its purest form will have extreme peaks and troughs as far as growth/value creation

Communism will have a stable economy but stymies innovation.

I think for 1st world countries, some of the Europeans systems work well.

For 3rd world countries, I think semi dictatorships work best

Commy

yeah.

I think whatever you decide, there should be room for it to evolve. like they've done in europe. it took time and countless revolutions, but it seems like the authorities have somewhat of an understanding with the people. they know if they take it too far the people will riot. like we saw in France a few months ago, in italy when that kid got shit. europeans don't let their governments get away with too much. and their governments know that, and act accordingly. to some extent.

here in the US very little changes on election day. for the people. and with the tight control of the media and people in general, nothing really changes with protests either. a dangerous combination. when you make nonviolent revolution impossible you make violent revolution inevitable-jfk. gotta allow room for things to change.

Abookamongstthemany

Commy wrote:

here in the US very little changes on election day. for the people. and with the tight control of the media and people in general, nothing really changes with protests either. a dangerous combination. when you make nonviolent revolution impossible you make violent revolution inevitable-jfk. gotta allow room for things to change.

Yes, and until we demand more as a people then we will continue to see change happening at a snails pace. I get so frustrated when people say they would love to see this and that happen here but it's just not the 'reality' of the situation. Um, don't we get to decide what the reality of the situation is here in our so called 'democracy' or have we become so apathethic that we'll take whatever scraps they throw out at us and forgive all the other injustices while we soooo patiently wait for the powers that be to get around to giving us the things we really want at their own terms if ever?

OceansJenny

I feel as though his critique is correct, but his "solution" (communism) is not. Communism will pull everyone into poverty, so it is much worse. If all money is distributed equally, why would I want to be a doctor? I might as well be a garbage man. Then everyone becomes garbage men (is anyone's job seriously motivated beyond pay? Are you going to be a doctor and go through med school to make 6.25/hr?) and the country's progress comes to a halt. Country doesn't make any money, then everyone's in poverty.

Unfortunately poverty will always be a by-product of capitalism. But so far no one has offered a better solution.

VINNY GOOMBA

No economic system works without the people pulling their heads out of their asses and taking control for themselves.

Capitalism is a great thing when things actually stay "free market." We haven't had free markets in this country since before your grandparents were born. Why? The people got lazy and let banks take over the country's monetary policy, and it only got worse from there. Free markets require a sound currency, unlike the dollar, and does not allow for any private banking cartel to have a MONOPOLY on the issuance of currency.

Now, is there a certain vigilance that the people can take to make a socialist system work? Any time you have central economic planning, their will always be a group of very wealthy people who will still have the one-up on the rest of us. That certainly doesn't sound any more fair to me.

Drowned Out

VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

No economic system works without the people pulling their heads out of their asses and taking control for themselves.

Capitalism is a great thing when things actually stay "free market." We haven't had free markets in this country since before your grandparents were born. Why? The people got lazy and let banks take over the country's monetary policy, and it only got worse from there. Free markets require a sound currency, unlike the dollar, and does not allow for any private banking cartel to have a MONOPOLY on the issuance of currency.

Now, is there a certain vigilance that the people can take to make a socialist system work? Any time you have central economic planning, their will always be a group of very wealthy people who will still have the one-up on the rest of us. That certainly doesn't sound any more fair to me.

See, the problem I have with a completely free market is with the privatization of essential services....power, for example. The infrastructure required is too massive an undertaking for any kind of competition to develop. Deregulation of power in my province saw huge price increases, which all fell on the shoulders of the consumer. I think the public actually has LESS oversight in that situation. What can we do once a monopoly has been handed to a private interest? At least if it was government controlled, the politicians have SOME accountability. There has to be a reason why developing countries try so hard to maintain state control of their resources...

Either way, NO political system works without public vigilance.

VINNY GOOMBA

Drowned Out wrote:

See, the problem I have with a completely free market is with the privatization of essential services....power, for example. The infrastructure required is too massive an undertaking for any kind of competition to develop. Deregulation of power in my province saw huge price increases, which all fell on the shoulders of the consumer. I think the public actually has LESS oversight in that situation. What can we do once a monopoly has been handed to a private interest? At least if it was government controlled, the politicians have SOME accountability. There has to be a reason why developing countries try so hard to maintain state control of their resources...

Either way, NO political system works without public vigilance.

Really? We had deregulation down here (Hudson Valley, NY) and it seems to be working pretty well from what I can tell.

Drowned Out

OceansJenny wrote:

I feel as though his critique is correct, but his "solution" (communism) is not. Communism will pull everyone into poverty, so it is much worse. If all money is distributed equally, why would I want to be a doctor? I might as well be a garbage man. Then everyone becomes garbage men (is anyone's job seriously motivated beyond pay? Are you going to be a doctor and go through med school to make 6.25/hr?) and the country's progress comes to a halt. Country doesn't make any money, then everyone's in poverty.

Unfortunately poverty will always be a by-product of capitalism. But so far no one has offered a better solution.

Of course people are motivated beyond pay.

Why be a doctor? Well, you could spend 7-8 years studying something interesting in a nice atmosphere, before beginning a career doing something challenging, or you could go straight from grade school to physical labour and sorting trash the rest of your life....which would you choose? Not advocating communism, but I disagree with much of your post...

Drowned Out

VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

Drowned Out wrote:

See, the problem I have with a completely free market is with the privatization of essential services....power, for example. The infrastructure required is too massive an undertaking for any kind of competition to develop. Deregulation of power in my province saw huge price increases, which all fell on the shoulders of the consumer. I think the public actually has LESS oversight in that situation. What can we do once a monopoly has been handed to a private interest? At least if it was government controlled, the politicians have SOME accountability. There has to be a reason why developing countries try so hard to maintain state control of their resources...

Either way, NO political system works without public vigilance.

Really? We had deregulation down here (Hudson Valley, NY) and it seems to be working pretty well from what I can tell.

ya, no time to find any stats at the moment, but the increases were pretty severe if I remember correctly. I live in Alberta if you're bored and want to look for yourself...I'll see what I can find from home tonight.
I know for a fact that our liquor/beer prices went up HUGE after our provincial govt privatized/deregulated that industry....that is a serious problem

sweet adeline

i was a big proponent of communism for a long time, and i liked the idea of a utopian society. i am constantly discouraged when i think of the inherent greed of a lot of people in the world and that in turn has turned me off to the idea.

that being said, i don't think its a bad thing to try to move toward a more perfect society where co-dependence and helping out those less fortunate than you is encouraged by government.

Lesbelges

Drowned Out wrote:

OceansJenny wrote:

I feel as though his critique is correct, but his "solution" (communism) is not. Communism will pull everyone into poverty, so it is much worse. If all money is distributed equally, why would I want to be a doctor? I might as well be a garbage man. Then everyone becomes garbage men (is anyone's job seriously motivated beyond pay? Are you going to be a doctor and go through med school to make 6.25/hr?) and the country's progress comes to a halt. Country doesn't make any money, then everyone's in poverty.

Unfortunately poverty will always be a by-product of capitalism. But so far no one has offered a better solution.

Of course people are motivated beyond pay.

Why be a doctor? Well, you could spend 7-8 years studying something interesting in a nice atmosphere, before beginning a career doing something challenging, or you could go straight from grade school to physical labour and sorting trash the rest of your life....which would you choose? Not advocating communism, but I disagree with much of your post...

That assumes that you have the money to either pay to study to become a doctor or have enough cash to support yourself through school. Besides pay, you have to think about quality of work and what drives one to do stellar work versus just putting in the hours....

Commy

thing is, in a collectivist society, the motivation for labor changes. its no longer a competitive game where you try to do better than your neighbors. you work with your neighbors for a common goal-that of a better community. there's a lot to be said for having something to show at the end of the day for your labor. its a family structure, on a larger scale. the parents help the children, and instead of the kids going off to work for themselves they work for the family when they are old enough to do so. replace family with community and you get the idea.

and resources should benefit the people of the community they are extracted from. especially if that community is providing the labor. what does a CEO of a mining company do? he points his finger-"dig here, dig there", he does very little. in the case of a collectivist society, the miners would be making the profit from the sale of the ore, or lumber or whatever the case may be. you cut out the top, the management, to a large degree. So you end up making MORE money, not less. considerably more.

think about the US for a second. Back in the day-50 years ago or so, 1 person could provide for a family. 2 cars, nice house, nice things, clothes. today it takes 2 people to barely cover costs for a family. They are doing twice as much work and getting payed less than half as much. where do you think all that extra cash went?

naturally you're going to have people resisting against such a system. but we have that today, and its probably on a much larger scale. its called crime. in a collectivist system, i think you'll find that when people are working for something rather than competing against the everyone, you will have a much higher participation rate ie less crime.

acoustic guy

Commy wrote:

"Marx argued that capitalism is inherently unstable, fraught with contradictions and prone to deep crises."


sound familiar?

According to standard capitalist doctrine things like wars, hunger, and poverty will work themselves out through market practices-according to Marx they are by-products of the system. given the current state of affairs, it seems he was right all along.

According to Marx, capitalism is an economic system profoundly at odds with a sustainable planet. The exploitation of nature is as fundamental to the profit system, he argued, as the exploitation of working people.

which is all very accurate. just in the US, wages have stagnated since the 70's. and now detroit auto workers have had to re-negotiate their contracts-just to continue to keep operating. (notice the wall street execs were able to hide behind their contracts). exploitation of labor. look to the third world, where jobs are being shipped to the poorest countries to take advantage of their miserable conditions, through wages/environmental laws etc.\


and here we are, in the midst of one of the worst economic disasters since the great depression. maybe there is some to this socialism thing after all?




more...
http://climateandcapitalism.com/?p=638

Man you are totally out of your mind.
You are soooooo confused. Its really sad. I dont know where to begin with this post. lol, not sure how to handle it. I think I am gonna just let you live with your twisted beliefs.
Good luck with that.

acoustic guy

sweet adeline wrote:

i was a big proponent of communism for a long time, and i liked the idea of a utopian society. i am constantly discouraged when i think of the inherent greed of a lot of people in the world and that in turn has turned me off to the idea.

that being said, i don't think its a bad thing to try to move toward a more perfect society where co-dependence and helping out those less fortunate than you is encouraged by government.

LOL
A perfect society? Hahahahahaha! Come visit Atlantic City my friend. I'll show you a perfect society. Its full of famlies that are filled with grand parents, parents and kids that ALL choose to not work EVER, live off the goverment and never ever try to get ahead to better themselves. All they do is take take take from the state and abuse the system. And its not just a few people. Its hundrends of thousands of people all over America. You wanna help out the less fortunate? Then get them a job! Dont just take away money from hard working people and give it to the ones for the most part just wanna be lazy bastards. YES yes I know, not all are lazy but ya know what, most are. Come to AC and see how peole choose to live. Its so easy to get a job for the most part if some one really really wants one. (This economy aside). Get up early, dress the part and WORK HARD! My father once told me "Work will set you free". Any time I had financial trouble I got a second job. I worked many jobs that were demeaning but I did not care. It was a job.
I hate it when people like you make excusses for the one who want to live off handouts.
And why do they do this???
Because they can. They see their grandma's and grandpa's not working yet still having food on their plate.
Dont you get it??
Capitalism gives hard working people a chance to get ahead and better themselves and their families.
Like myself, I work 75 hours a week 7 months out of the year and 55 hours a week the rest of the time. Why? Because if I do I will have nicer things and give my children a better way of life.
With out Capitalism I would not have that choice. I would work all those hours and still live in poverty under your choice of goverment.

Some of you in here are really bizzare to me.

Sludge Factory

Commy wrote:

think about the US for a second. Back in the day-50 years ago or so, 1 person could provide for a family. 2 cars, nice house, nice things, clothes. today it takes 2 people to barely cover costs for a family. They are doing twice as much work and getting payed less than half as much. where do you think all that extra cash went?

I'd have to say most of that extra cash went away due to inflation and our horrible monetary policies. My point is, the same thing could've happened under communism under that example. Would being communistic stop the Federal Reserve from printing up more money whenever it was deemed necessary?

soulsinging

acoustic guy wrote:

Capitalism gives hard working people a chance to get ahead and better themselves and their families.
Like myself, I work 75 hours a week 7 months out of the year and 55 hours a week the rest of the time. Why? Because if I do I will have nicer things and give my children a better way of life.

Fuck that man, my kids can do their own damn work for their better lives. I'd rather enjoy things like... you know... spending time with them. Taking the occasional vacation. You know, livin... L-I-V-I-N. Sounds better than spending my life either in some shithole or in bed. Life is too short to spend the whole thing obsessed with getting more bling.

sweet adeline

soulsinging wrote:

acoustic guy wrote:

Capitalism gives hard working people a chance to get ahead and better themselves and their families.
Like myself, I work 75 hours a week 7 months out of the year and 55 hours a week the rest of the time. Why? Because if I do I will have nicer things and give my children a better way of life.

Fuck that man, my kids can do their own damn work for their better lives. I'd rather enjoy things like... you know... spending time with them. Taking the occasional vacation. You know, livin... L-I-V-I-N. Sounds better than spending my life either in some shithole or in bed. Life is too short to spend the whole thing obsessed with getting more bling.

yeah, i was just going to say pretty much the same thing. who in the fuck BRAGS about working 75 hours a week with a family? that's not living. spend more time with your kids.

callen

acoustic guy wrote:

[

Man you are totally out of your mind.
You are soooooo confused. Its really sad. I dont know where to begin with this post. lol, not sure how to handle it. I think I am gonna just let you live with your twisted beliefs.
Good luck with that.

Edit .

callen

acoustic guy wrote:

[
LOL
A perfect society? Hahahahahaha! Come visit Atlantic City my friend. I'll show you a perfect society. Its full of famlies that are filled with grand parents, parents and kids that ALL choose to not work EVER, live off the goverment and never ever try to get ahead to better themselves. All they do is take take take from the state and abuse the system. And its not just a few people. Its hundrends of thousands of people all over America. You wanna help out the less fortunate? Then get them a job! Dont just take away money from hard working people and give it to the ones for the most part just wanna be lazy bastards. YES yes I know, not all are lazy but ya know what, most are. Come to AC and see how peole choose to live. Its so easy to get a job for the most part if some one really really wants one. (This economy aside). Get up early, dress the part and WORK HARD! My father once told me "Work will set you free". Any time I had financial trouble I got a second job. I worked many jobs that were demeaning but I did not care. It was a job.
I hate it when people like you make excusses for the one who want to live off handouts.
And why do they do this???
Because they can. They see their grandma's and grandpa's not working yet still having food on their plate.
Dont you get it??
Capitalism gives hard working people a chance to get ahead and better themselves and their families.
Like myself, I work 75 hours a week 7 months out of the year and 55 hours a week the rest of the time. Why? Because if I do I will have nicer things and give my children a better way of life.
With out Capitalism I would not have that choice. I would work all those hours and still live in poverty under your choice of goverment.

Some of you in here are really bizzare to me.

We're all just the sum of our experiences and have no choices...we just react. Those that you claim are "Lazy" have different motivations, expectations due to past experiences.

If you were switched at birth with one of those "lazy" humans you'd end up being lazy and the other human would have your same drives, expectations, etc. No ones special..some of us are extremely lucky...ah ah ah...oh sorry..we're blessed.

We're not bizzare....just been on the planet a bit longer and thus see through some stuff that you will as well.

flywallyfly

soulsinging wrote:

acoustic guy wrote:

Capitalism gives hard working people a chance to get ahead and better themselves and their families.
Like myself, I work 75 hours a week 7 months out of the year and 55 hours a week the rest of the time. Why? Because if I do I will have nicer things and give my children a better way of life.

Fuck that man, my kids can do their own damn work for their better lives. I'd rather enjoy things like... you know... spending time with them. Taking the occasional vacation. You know, livin... L-I-V-I-N. Sounds better than spending my life either in some shithole or in bed. Life is too short to spend the whole thing obsessed with getting more bling.

+1

Commy

acoustic guy wrote:

Man you are totally out of your mind.
You are soooooo confused. Its really sad. I dont know where to begin with this post. lol, not sure how to handle it. I think I am gonna just let you live with your twisted beliefs.
Good luck with that.

i think you're confused. i simply provided info.

just something karl marx wrote about capitalism that happens to be very accurate.

i wasn't defending his views on communism, not at all.



edit: do you really believe there isn't a better way to be doing things?

Commy

Sludge Factory wrote:

I'd have to say most of that extra cash went away due to inflation and our horrible monetary policies. My point is, the same thing could've happened under communism under that example. Would being communistic stop the Federal Reserve from printing up more money whenever it was deemed necessary?

if anything that is another example of how we are getting less. with technology, the value of labor has actually increased. an individual is much more productive now than they were 50 years ago right? but in part because of inflation, the compensation the working class receives for their labor has actually decreased. a dollar today is worth less than it was 50 years, ago, due to inflation. but a worker is much more productive, due to technology. but an individual was able to purchase more 50 years ago than an individual today. ie we are getting screwed.

that's the inherent greed of capitalism affecting policy.

the value of the individual labor has increased, considerably increased, yet we are being paid less.


again, i'm not pointing out that communism is the way to go, far from it. what i'm trying to do is point out that capitalism IS NOT the way to go.

WaveCameCrashin

maybe A.G is working that much so he can put his kids through college.Or maybe he dosent want his wife to have to work so she can stay at home and help raise their kids who knows but it's his choice and you guys should back off.

flywallyfly

prfctlefts wrote:

maybe A.G is working that much so he can put his kids through college.Or maybe he dosent want his wife to have to work so she can stay at home and help raise their kids who knows but it's his choice and you guys should back off.

Maybe...or maybe it's because what he actually said, "Why? Because if I do I will have nicer things and give my children a better way of life.".

You are correct, it is HIS choice but perhaps the backlash was the way he threw it out there like it was noble.

Sludge Factory

Commy wrote:

Sludge Factory wrote:

I'd have to say most of that extra cash went away due to inflation and our horrible monetary policies. My point is, the same thing could've happened under communism under that example. Would being communistic stop the Federal Reserve from printing up more money whenever it was deemed necessary?

if anything that is another example of how we are getting less. with technology, the value of labor has actually increased. an individual is much more productive now than they were 50 years ago right? but in part because of inflation, the compensation the working class receives for their labor has actually decreased. a dollar today is worth less than it was 50 years, ago, due to inflation. but a worker is much more productive, due to technology. but an individual was able to purchase more 50 years ago than an individual today. ie we are getting screwed.

that's the inherent greed of capitalism affecting policy.

the value of the individual labor has increased, considerably increased, yet we are being paid less.


again, i'm not pointing out that communism is the way to go, far from it. what i'm trying to do is point out that capitalism IS NOT the way to go.

Well, I don't know...I don't think capitalism would be viewed so negatively if it was actually implemented with a sound monetary policy that didn't create inflation. I can't really say, though...since we haven't done that for a very long time.

KDH12

all political ideologies are flawed....