? even Jesus is against the church apparently
Commy
Posts: 4,984
Matthew 6:5-6: "And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men....when thou prayest, enter into thy closet and when thou has shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret...."
I'm pretty sure it was Jesus quoted here.
seems he is clearly stating that people shouldn't go to church. or pray in church anyway. so, I'm kind of wondering how people who go to church deal with this contradiction.
I'm pretty sure it was Jesus quoted here.
seems he is clearly stating that people shouldn't go to church. or pray in church anyway. so, I'm kind of wondering how people who go to church deal with this contradiction.
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But Jesus was also big on fellowship, loving thy neighbour and so on, which at least justifies congregations and their associated social works. But nowhere does he speak of a centralized hierarchal church authority. That was an invention of the rulers in the middle ages.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
I think there is a big difference between praying and worshiping. Not being a church-goer, I may be off here, but in reading the passage quoted, I think the point of it is more saying "Pray because you want to have a relationship with God, not because you want to be seen in public praying."
Also I think the people who are truly pious see going to church as something they enjoy, as it enhances their relationship with God.
But I'm sure there are a lot of people who go to church as more of a social thing, because of their station in the community, they think they should be seen going to church. I think your quoted passage might apply to these types.
In all due respect, commy, i think what is "clear" is that you are cherrypicking a bit in order to support your agenda. Lets look at a bit more of Matthew 6 for context. (NIV)
"Matthew 6
Giving to the Needy
1"Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.
2"So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 3But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
Prayer
5"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 6But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
Fasting
16"When you fast, do not look somber as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces to show men they are fasting. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 17But when you fast, put oil on your head and wash your face, 18so that it will not be obvious to men that you are fasting, but only to your Father, who is unseen; and your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."
What is "clearly" being stated is that the true measure of a man's character is not what he does when he has an audience, but what he does when no one is looking. This applies to prayer as well. Nowhere did Jesus say anything about groups of believers shouldn't congregate. What he was "clearly" saying is that prayer shouldn't be simply a show.
So, in sum, as a church goer, i see no "contradiction".
If everyone is to pray for himself... why does a Preacher say your prayer for you?
Hail, Hail!!!
People at that time probably prayed in secret because they were persecuted. Even as the churches later positioned for power, people were persecuted for the faith they chose. Matthew was targeting the synagogues as they were the voice of God and not the son, at the time to preserve the teachings of Christ. It was also directed at what Matthew saw as false prophets who may have sprung up. He was probably encouraging people to pray in secret to keep the faith alive. Contrary to teachings, the so called Roman Catholic Church was not established at this time it simply claimed lineage.
i can. But i don't even waste time with the whole "Jesus didn't even really exist" crowd anymore. Its a non argument. No truly credible historian even advances that argument anymore. Even atheist historians agree the man lived.
fair enough, I can see how you might see it that way. to me it still seems that Jesus is saying public prayer is a waste of time for the "hypocrites". in fact he directly says-"when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you
which kind of implies that other forms of prayer-like public prayer in a church-will NOT be rewarded.
still seems like a contradiction, and a pretty big one at that.
it seems more ridiculous that Jesus from the bible is a fictional character, given that most of the world either sees him as a prophet or the son of god.
it seems obvious that 1)someone named Jesus lived at some point and 2)he obviously had some sort of impact on the locals.
no more real than the eastern bunny
Neil deGrasse Tyson
Why not (V) (°,,,,°) (V) ?
Wikipedia cites several historical sources outside the bible that speak of Christ.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus
It is Wikipedia, so consider the source. But if you are really interested, maybe you can look into some of the writings it mentions and see for yourself.
Ok, look. There is ample extrabiblical reference to the historical Jesus. Perhaps none more compelling than the Jewish Talmud! If anyone had reason to deny the existence of Jesus it would be those historians responsible for said Talmud. They don't speak favorably of Jesus, but they don't deny his existence either. The Talmud speaks of a man called Jesus performing what they basically call "magic tricks" and even speak of his trial and execution. Again they don't have much nice to say about the historical Jesus, but that isn't the point. The point is they provide significant historical cross reference to Jesus existence. Argue against the divinity of Jesus if you'd like, but for the sake of your integrity, give up on the "Jesus didn't exist" rubbish as that argument was put to rest by historians of all backgrounds long ago. NOONE of sound and reasonable mind pushes this argument anymore.
When you say "contradiction", do you mean Jesus contradicting himself, or Christians contradicting the teachings of Christ, because you and i both know that the latter, unfortunately happens all too often. Again, i don't think Jesus was saying that believers congregating to worship and pray is a bad thing. i thing he is referencing the hypocrisy of those who pray ONLY in such settings to make a show of it but are perhaps insincere. There is more than one account of Jesus ridiculing the hypocrisy of some "religious" types. His anger at the merchants in the temple comes to mind. It would be kind of like suggesting that Jesus hinted that one should not perform good works or help out their neighbor if there are other people around to see it but should only do good things in private. That would be of course ridiculous.
The divinity stuff I disagree with...
i'm not speaking for Commy... but, I wonder, then WHY go to Church? Why NOT live your life as God would have you? Why not live your life, following the teachings of Jesus?
I think it is because Church is a social setting. One where you make acquaintences and friendships... nothing wrong with that... in fact, very positive. But, bragging about how your church does this for poor people or that for the homeless... well, isn't that what Jesus taught us not to do?
Hail, Hail!!!
You SHOULD live your life that way and you're right about the NECESSITY of church. When Jesus spoke of "the church" he was speaking of the worldwide body of believers. He wasn't speaking of bricks, mortar, and stained glass. i go to church to be in the word and spend time in worship. i go out of want not out of obligation. You're also right that it is a place of fellowship with other believers. i don't go for the social aspect of it though. Most people at my church don't really like me i would venture to guess. Again, bragging about good works is pointless. That doesn't mean the church, the organized church as we refer to it, shouldn't do these things. i don't see to many "churches" taking out full page adds "bragging" about what they do.
With that, i have to get ready for church. Not because i HAVE to, but because i WANT to.
It's not really a contradiction as much as it is a commentary on hypocracy. As we all strongly speculate, there are a lot of hypocrits who go to church and put on this face like they are the greatest people when they are not. Your thoughts & actions when you are alone reveal who you are - not your talk & actions in front of a crowd of people.
So it's not an either/or situation. The passage is just saying you should pray on your own, not just show up to church where it is socially convenient.
It's obvious that passage is about making a great show of being religious as opposed to being truly religious. He was saying that they were hypocrites because they liked to be seen by people fasting and praying- in other words they were showing off - instead of focusing on really worshipping. He's not saying not to go to church, but rather for the right reasons and not just to show off in front of people.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
You gotta admit though, he's saying it in a histrionic, hyperbolic way that'd do the Moving Train proud... "lock yourself in your closet to pray." About as over the top as the people here
while that is all very nice and comfortably fits into current religious practices, the passage actually directly states that...
"when thou prayest, enter into thy closet and when thou has shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret..."
when you pray.
from an outside perspective (where I am) its hard to read anything into the passage, except what it actually states. this is one of the few religious statements, in my experience, that is very clear and direct.
Alright. how would you translate the message in the passage?
"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues..."
seems pretty straightforward to me.
according to the guy that the entire religion is built around, it clearly says not to pray in church. it is a private thing.
ie church is the very thing Jesus was against.
However, I do believe Jesus is very much agains Christianity.
Its called figurative language, Commy. If you read the Gospels, you'll find that Jesus taught in parables VERY frequently. Brilliantly, i might add. Why should this passage be read any differently. You're taking obvious figurative language and translating it literally to make a point. It's not working out very well for you.
The Church is a racket. Always has been. Always will be.
Fuck the Church!