The vinyl does not have the extra songs on it(not enough room)
Drop In the Park sounds great. Like both pressings of TEN It's transfered from a digital source. Not to mention it's pressed on beautiful 180 gram vinyl.
I'm so beyond happy that Pearl Jam (and Sony I guess) decided to do this the right way as opposed to the punk ass way. They could have easily cheaped out.
It really pisses me off when bands release the album on vinyl that's pressed from a digital source.
It's a total cash grab, meant to sucker all the rubes who don't know any better.
Basically if you press the vinyl from a digital source, you defeat the whole purpose of pressing the album to vinyl in the first place. Digital Source vinyl is basically like putting a CD on a turntable. It's a total rip off for anyone hungry for that "warm" vinyl feeling.
You've really got to be careful when buying vinyl these days. Alot of so called "Audiophile" online stores try and cash in on the vinyl craze by taking a CD Master and pressing it to vinyl to make a quick buck.
I bough a so-called "Audiophile" version of "Tommy" a few years back and was horrified when I compared the sound qaulity of my "original scratched to shit version" and this so called "Remastered 180 gram Audiophile pressing". My scratched original copy blew the new version out of the water.
Once again Pearl Jam has done right by their fans.
Good Job!!
You wrote: "Like both pressings of TEN It's transfered from a digital source".
Didn't you mean analog source? That's what you wrote earlier and also pointed later how good it is that they didn't use a digital source.
could someone explain compression and why its viewed as a negative. My hearing isn't the greatest after too many loud shows, so I'm just wondering what happens to the music. Is it all one steady loudness, without subtle peaks and quiet spots, or distorted or what? thanks :?:
7/28/1992 Lollapalooza Cincinnati, 9/22/1996 Toledo, 8/20/2000 Cincinnati, 6/24/2006 Cincinnati, 8/5/2007 Lollapalooza Chicago @ Grant Park, EV solo 8/21/2008 Chicago @ Auditorium Theater
could someone explain compression and why its viewed as a negative. My hearing isn't the greatest after too many loud shows, so I'm just wondering what happens to the music. Is it all one steady loudness, without subtle peaks and quiet spots, or distorted or what? thanks :?:
I'm not very good at explaining it in technical terms; I can tell when I hear it I just can't verbally express it that well. The best I can do is throw out a couple links to you.
could someone explain compression and why its viewed as a negative. My hearing isn't the greatest after too many loud shows, so I'm just wondering what happens to the music. Is it all one steady loudness, without subtle peaks and quiet spots, or distorted or what? thanks :?:
The phrase loudness war (or loudness race) refers to the music industry's tendency to record, produce and broadcast music at progressively increasing levels of loudness to attempt to create a sound that stands out from others.
This phenomenon can be observed in many areas of the music industry, particularly broadcasting and albums released on CD and DVD. In the case of CDs, the war stems from artists' and producers' desires to create CDs that sound as loud as possible or louder than CDs from competing artists or recording labels.
However, as the maximum amplitude of a CD is at a fixed level, once that level has been reached, the overall loudness can only be increased by reducing the dynamic range. This is done by amplifying the lower-level program material, while the loudest peak sounds are either destroyed or severely diminished. Certain extreme uses of dynamic range compression can introduce distortion or clipping to the waveform of the recording.
OK, even with my hearing I could tell the difference on the youtube clip, plus I saw and heard the one where Smells Like Teen Spirit was played as its original quality sound, then what it would sound like if it was released in 2008. Damn compression! I didn't realize what the difference was, but I've had conversations with friends that vinyl albums sound better to me than CD's and now I know why. Mad Season's Above on vinyl is incredible sounding and its because of the dynamic range of the recording. Thanks for the responses, I really appreciate it!
7/28/1992 Lollapalooza Cincinnati, 9/22/1996 Toledo, 8/20/2000 Cincinnati, 6/24/2006 Cincinnati, 8/5/2007 Lollapalooza Chicago @ Grant Park, EV solo 8/21/2008 Chicago @ Auditorium Theater
Sorry to hear Pearl Jam have gone this route (overly compressed). They should know better. Wasn't Ten originally recorded on analog tape? It should still have a little warmth from that...maybe it comes through on the vinyl.
On a related tangent, I know cd's are 320 kbps, and that lossless audio is 1411kbps, digitally speaking. I'm 100% pro-analog, but if they started producing lossless cd's at normal volume levels than a lot of today's crappy bands would sound so much better. Vinyl will always be a niche thing, but I hate that fact that it's often the only way to get the purest experience.
Post edited by Black Circle Spin on
I'm not too concerned with PJ20, because I celebrate the band's existence every year.
This is what digital compression looks like using Even Flow - Original, Remaster, and Remix.
FYI - Digial Compression does NOT make the loud parts quieter, the loud parts are limited at or just below 0db which you can clearly see in the Remix version because the green (the wave form) is almost a solid in the preview window meaning every piece of the track has had the volume increased dramatically to the point that if the volume wasn't limited, the entire song would be distorted from being too loud. The second set shows a spectral representation which shows that all frequencies above 19000-20000HZ were eliminated somewhere during the Remaster/Remix process, not so with the original.
I am not an audiophile at all but all I know is I can take the VS. CD and put it in my car and crank it up and it sounds great. I put Death Magnetic in there and can barely turn the volume above 3 before it starts distorting out and making the speakers rattle and sounds like shit.
I am not an audiophile at all but all I know is I can take the VS. CD and put it in my car and crank it up and it sounds great. I put Death Magnetic in there and can barely turn the volume above 3 before it starts distorting out and making the speakers rattle and sounds like shit.
Exactly. You don't have to be an audiophile to hear it. I just worry that's kids these days are going to be robbed of the vital musical nutrients they need. Dynamics, depth, clarity...
I'm not too concerned with PJ20, because I celebrate the band's existence every year.
Learning from others here about what over compression does, and then hearing and seeing examples of it while learning, I still have one question. WHY? I can't believe professional people in the industry ever thought it was the way to start mastering music. Make it true and pure sounding like it should be! Viva La Vinyl
7/28/1992 Lollapalooza Cincinnati, 9/22/1996 Toledo, 8/20/2000 Cincinnati, 6/24/2006 Cincinnati, 8/5/2007 Lollapalooza Chicago @ Grant Park, EV solo 8/21/2008 Chicago @ Auditorium Theater
^^^ Yeah..... Bands like Zep, Pink Floyd, Beatles, PJ, Tool are so great b/c they are so dynamic. It's a shame that kids may not be able to appreciate subtlety in music, b/c it has disappeared.
Since I've Been Loving You on the original vinyl is so ridiculous. I never knew to dynamic range of Robert Plant's vocal til I heard the record.
I'm not audiophile, either, but that Metallica album sounds like trash. I think they just capitalized on the vinyl trend and released a crappy sounding version. I don't think you really have to turn it up, for it to sound distort-y either. It just sucks.
Learning from others here about what over compression does, and then hearing and seeing examples of it while learning, I still have one question. WHY? I can't believe professional people in the industry ever thought it was the way to start mastering music. Make it true and pure sounding like it should be! Viva La Vinyl
It was a gradual thing. A little bit of compression is hardly noticeable and might actually make a particular track sound better. It probably started in pop music. It snowballed, and before you know it everyone has to do it or they sound "old" or "quiet". We can't trust people to use the volume knob.
I'm not too concerned with PJ20, because I celebrate the band's existence every year.
This is what digital compression looks like using Even Flow - Original, Remaster, and Remix.
FYI - Digial Compression does NOT make the loud parts quieter, the loud parts are limited at or just below 0db which you can clearly see in the Remix version because the green (the wave form) is almost a solid in the preview window meaning every piece of the track has had the volume increased dramatically to the point that if the volume wasn't limited, the entire song would be distorted from being too loud. The second set shows a spectral representation which shows that all frequencies above 19000-20000HZ were eliminated somewhere during the Remaster/Remix process, not so with the original.
Thanks for doing all that work and uploading this. It was nice to see the changes and I must say I'm surprised that the Remix version is louder than the Remaster of the original. I thought maybe Brendan was supposed to be there to make things sound good and I know if he was the original mixer on Ten back in 91 he wouldn't have been practicing the same techniques he just did on this "update".
Also, one of the best sounding albums I have is Soundgarden's Superuknown (mixed by Brendan) and Down on the Upside. I remember reading an article from back when these came out and the topic of them being so quiet compared to other current releases of time was brought up and the band's answer was this: "If it sounds good quiet we know it'll sound really good when the listener turns it up"
It is not as horribly blatant as Death magnetic, which I can't listen to. However it is quite compressed and is difficult to listen to for long periods of time. The vinyl version, however, sounds fantastic in my opinion.
so in conclusion, what are most people that have contributed to this thread trying to say? that a lot of us have wasted $140? a lot of us are still waiting for our chance to hear these remixes and are looking forward to enjoying them, so why try to ruin the anticipation?
The funny thing about Death Magnetic, is that along with the album release it got released as an album download for Guitar Hero (just as Ten is doing for Rock Band), and that horrible compression was NOT present in the Guitar Hero version of the mix, it actually sounds great, so some kind soul out there ripped the tracks from Guitar Hero in FLAC and distributed them amongst the net where I feel if you had bought that ungodly abomination of an album from retail you have every right to seek out and download the GH version, it sounds miles ahead of the copy from store shelves, cause it has, you know, dynamics lol.
If the good lord intended us to walk, he wouldn't have invented roller skates!
i will wait until i listen to the set before I form any opinions on this.........
i find it very hard, if not impossible, to believe that they went through all of this work only to butcher the sound quality of the remix.
Look, nobody's saying they've "butchered" or completely ruined it.
It still sounds really good - it's just really loud, very much a modern mastering (see some of the links earlier if you want to get a good idea of what we're talking about). It becomes very fatiguing to the ears over long periods of time as the quiet bits are really loud and the loud bits are total, super god-head loud.
The vinyl supposedly sounds great, so I'm thrilled about that.
If anyone thinks we're crapping on the quality of what the band produced, etc. then probably isn't the thread for you. It's a discussion of what happened when the mastering engineer got his hands on the mix - AFTER the band and Brendan had finished with it. I'm sure the label probably pushing for a loud, modern rock master to compete with something like "Death Magnetic" in the volume stakes, and they got it.
no, I get it. I'm no sound engineer, but I do have an ear for things like this I guess. even when I listened to the tracks that were remixed for the "rearviewmirror" greatest hits back in 2004, "Black" in particular, the mix just seemed like a wall when turned up loud. it was just in your face loud, and not more "spaced out" like a surround sound mix. but it doesn't really bother me. I still think it's pretty raw and more like what Pearl Jam should sound like. I'm sure the new remixed CD will sound fine to casual listeners, because people who do sound engineering professionally have the blessing AND the curse of hearing what's right and wrong with a mix right away.
I did some research on the internet about Bob Ludwig, who apparently mastered both the CDs and vinyls in the super deluxe package. (Don't know about Drop in the Park, haven't received my Super deluxe set, yet).
I've understood that he's practically one of the most respected and best guys out there and has done some great masters e.g. Led Zeppelin II.
You can check an interview with him at this address:
it's interesting to read that Guns N' Roses chose [""the full dynamics version" as opposed to the "loudness-for-loudness-sake versions"] for Chinese Democracy. I wonder if Ludwig also gave Pearl Jam the option of a "full dynamics version" of the new Ten Remix CD or did he just do "the full dynamics versions" of the two or four vinyls? Would be very interesting to hear who made the decisions about the loudness levels of these new versions.
As I yet haven't heard the new remixes on vinyl (yes, that's the first thing I will listen to when I receive the box ), I certainly believe they sound great. It's too bad someone made the decision to compress the CDs too much, but thank god we have vinyl and thank god Pearl Jam prefer vinyl. (Maybe they thought we wanted loud, compressed CD:s for the car and to rip mp3s to the iPod)?
Check out http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/ ... _mp3/print
where you can read about the return of the vinyl and where it's pointed out that "Ludwig, like others, does separate mastering sessions for CDs and LPs".
They could have realesed the songs on itunes and to radio stations brickwalled but not on the psycial disc.
And it's not only that it's loud. When It's over compressed he levels of loud versus silent are skewed and fucked up. There are no dynamics. Generally speaking.
I have not yet listened to the CD-version of the remix/remaster. But it's sad that PJ who are advocates of vinyl and such let this happen. A CD can sound great, and it can sound like shit.
I'm not an audiophile, but I listened to Death Magnetic today (the cd) and I couldn't even turn it up without it sounding weird.
"Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
Comments
You wrote: "Like both pressings of TEN It's transfered from a digital source".
Didn't you mean analog source? That's what you wrote earlier and also pointed later how good it is that they didn't use a digital source.
I'm not very good at explaining it in technical terms; I can tell when I hear it I just can't verbally express it that well. The best I can do is throw out a couple links to you.
A short video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gmex_4hreQ
You said your hearing isn't the greatest anymore so that still might not help you and in that case here is a write up:
http://www.cdmasteringservices.com/dynamicrange.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war
On a related tangent, I know cd's are 320 kbps, and that lossless audio is 1411kbps, digitally speaking. I'm 100% pro-analog, but if they started producing lossless cd's at normal volume levels than a lot of today's crappy bands would sound so much better. Vinyl will always be a niche thing, but I hate that fact that it's often the only way to get the purest experience.
FYI - Digial Compression does NOT make the loud parts quieter, the loud parts are limited at or just below 0db which you can clearly see in the Remix version because the green (the wave form) is almost a solid in the preview window meaning every piece of the track has had the volume increased dramatically to the point that if the volume wasn't limited, the entire song would be distorted from being too loud. The second set shows a spectral representation which shows that all frequencies above 19000-20000HZ were eliminated somewhere during the Remaster/Remix process, not so with the original.
Wave Form
http://home.comcast.net/~simms3/EvenOriginal1.PNG
http://home.comcast.net/~simms3/EvenRemaster1.PNG
http://home.comcast.net/~simms3/EvenRemix1.PNG
Spectral View
http://home.comcast.net/~simms3/EvenOriginal2.PNG
http://home.comcast.net/~simms3/EvenRemaster2.PNG
http://home.comcast.net/~simms3/EvenRemix2.PNG
BOS-9/28/04,9/29/04,6/28/08,6/30/08, 9/5/16, 9/7/16, 9/2/18
MTL-9/15/05, OTT-9/16/05
PHL-5/27/06,5/28/06,10/30/09,10/31/09
CHI-8/2/07,8/5/07,8/23/09,8/24/09
HTFD-6/27/08
ATX-10/4/09, 10/12/14
KC-5/3/2010,STL-5/4/2010
Bridge School-10/23/2010,10/24/2010
PJ20-9/3/2011,9/4/2011
OKC-11/16/13
SEA-12/6/13
TUL-10/8/14
Exactly. You don't have to be an audiophile to hear it. I just worry that's kids these days are going to be robbed of the vital musical nutrients they need. Dynamics, depth, clarity...
Since I've Been Loving You on the original vinyl is so ridiculous. I never knew to dynamic range of Robert Plant's vocal til I heard the record.
I'm not audiophile, either, but that Metallica album sounds like trash. I think they just capitalized on the vinyl trend and released a crappy sounding version. I don't think you really have to turn it up, for it to sound distort-y either. It just sucks.
It was a gradual thing. A little bit of compression is hardly noticeable and might actually make a particular track sound better. It probably started in pop music. It snowballed, and before you know it everyone has to do it or they sound "old" or "quiet". We can't trust people to use the volume knob.
Thanks for doing all that work and uploading this. It was nice to see the changes and I must say I'm surprised that the Remix version is louder than the Remaster of the original. I thought maybe Brendan was supposed to be there to make things sound good and I know if he was the original mixer on Ten back in 91 he wouldn't have been practicing the same techniques he just did on this "update".
Also, one of the best sounding albums I have is Soundgarden's Superuknown (mixed by Brendan) and Down on the Upside. I remember reading an article from back when these came out and the topic of them being so quiet compared to other current releases of time was brought up and the band's answer was this: "If it sounds good quiet we know it'll sound really good when the listener turns it up"
Key phrase: When the LISTENER turns it up.
Hmm, maybe we could petition the band to give us FLAC versions of the vinyl mix...or a full dynamic mix.
I know, pretty unlikely. I should stop letting this bug me. With any other band I probably wouldn't care.
Yeah, that would be cool, but it would probably go the route it did when Metallica fans petitioned to get Metallica to release a full dynamic mix.
CD audio is lossless, I can assure that it's not 320 kbps.
CD audio is 100% not true lossless. It's digital. By nature, no matter what you do, it has audio degredation.
BUT
You are right, unless the source is 320, you can do way better than 320.
44.1 kHz X 16 bit X 2 channels = 1,411 kbps
Typo Man: "Thanks kidz, but remembir, stay in skool!"
Because Flac is essentially as "lossless" as wav, but a bit smaller in size.
Typo Man: "Thanks kidz, but remembir, stay in skool!"
i find it very hard, if not impossible, to believe that they went through all of this work only to butcher the sound quality of the remix.
Look, nobody's saying they've "butchered" or completely ruined it.
It still sounds really good - it's just really loud, very much a modern mastering (see some of the links earlier if you want to get a good idea of what we're talking about). It becomes very fatiguing to the ears over long periods of time as the quiet bits are really loud and the loud bits are total, super god-head loud.
The vinyl supposedly sounds great, so I'm thrilled about that.
If anyone thinks we're crapping on the quality of what the band produced, etc. then probably isn't the thread for you. It's a discussion of what happened when the mastering engineer got his hands on the mix - AFTER the band and Brendan had finished with it. I'm sure the label probably pushing for a loud, modern rock master to compete with something like "Death Magnetic" in the volume stakes, and they got it.
I've understood that he's practically one of the most respected and best guys out there and has done some great masters e.g. Led Zeppelin II.
You can check an interview with him at this address:
http://mixonline.com/mixline/bobludwig_ ... view_0912/
and a short version: http://www.gloriousnoise.com/links/2009 ... s_wars.php
it's interesting to read that Guns N' Roses chose [""the full dynamics version" as opposed to the "loudness-for-loudness-sake versions"] for Chinese Democracy. I wonder if Ludwig also gave Pearl Jam the option of a "full dynamics version" of the new Ten Remix CD or did he just do "the full dynamics versions" of the two or four vinyls? Would be very interesting to hear who made the decisions about the loudness levels of these new versions.
As I yet haven't heard the new remixes on vinyl (yes, that's the first thing I will listen to when I receive the box
Check out http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/ ... _mp3/print
where you can read about the return of the vinyl and where it's pointed out that "Ludwig, like others, does separate mastering sessions for CDs and LPs".
And it's not only that it's loud. When It's over compressed he levels of loud versus silent are skewed and fucked up. There are no dynamics. Generally speaking.
I have not yet listened to the CD-version of the remix/remaster. But it's sad that PJ who are advocates of vinyl and such let this happen. A CD can sound great, and it can sound like shit.
I'm not an audiophile, but I listened to Death Magnetic today (the cd) and I couldn't even turn it up without it sounding weird.