Trent Reznor thoughts on scalpers / re-sellers

mavi

I'm impressed and grateful he took the time to write such a clear explanation. Artists can be so apprehensive about the consequences of speaking out on these matters, it is a breath of fresh air.


http://forum.nin.com/bb/read.php?9,548515,page=1

"As we approach on-sale dates for the upcoming tour, I've noticed lots of you are curious / concerned / outraged at the plethora of tickets that somehow appear on all these reseller sites at inflated prices - even before the pre-sale dates. I'll do my best to explain the situation as I see it, as well as clarify my organization's stance in the matter.

NIN decides to tour this summer. We arrive at the conclusion outdoor amphitheaters are the right venue for this outing, for a variety of reasons we've throughly considered*. In the past, NIN would sell the shows in each market to local promoters, who then "buy" the show from us to sell to you. Live Nation happens to own all the amphitheaters and bought most of the local promoters - so if you want to play those venues, you're being promoted by Live Nation. Live Nation has had an exclusive deal with TicketMaster that has just expired, so Live Nation launched their own ticketing service. Most of the dates on this tour are through Live Nation, some are through TicketMaster - this is determined by the promoter (Live Nation), not us.
Now we get into the issue of secondary markets for tickets, which is the hot issue here. The ticketing marketplace for rock concerts shows a real lack of sophistication, meaning this: the true market value of some tickets for some concerts is much higher than what the act wants to be perceived as charging. For example, there are some people who would be willing to pay $1,000 and up to be in the best seats for various shows, but MOST acts in the rock / pop world don't want to come off as greedy pricks asking that much, even though the market says its value is that high. The acts know this, the venue knows this, the promoters know this, the ticketing company knows this and the scalpers really know this. So...

The venue, the promoter, the ticketing agency and often the artist camp (artist, management and agent) take tickets from the pool of available seats and feed them directly to the re-seller (which from this point on will be referred to by their true name: SCALPER). I am not saying every one of the above entities all do this, nor am I saying they do it for all shows but this is a very common practice that happens more often than not. There is money to be made and they feel they should participate in it. There are a number of scams they employ to pull this off which is beyond the scope of this note.

StubHub.com is an example of a re-seller / scalper. So is TicketsNow.com.

Here's the rub: TicketMaster has essentially been a monopoly for many years - certainly up until Live Nation's exclusive deal ran out. They could have (and can right now) stop the secondary market dead in its tracks by doing the following: limit the amount of sales per customer, print names on the tickets and require ID / ticket matches at the venue. We know this works because we do it for our pre-sales. Why don't THEY do it? It's obvious - they make a lot of money fueling the secondary market. TicketMaster even bought a re-seller site and often bounces you over to that site to buy tickets (TicketsNow.com)!

NIN gets 10% of the available seats for our own pre-sale. We won a tough (and I mean TOUGH) battle to get the best seats. We require you to sign up at our site (for free) to get tickets. We limit the amount you can buy, we print your name on the tickets and we have our own person let you in a separate entrance where we check your ID to match the ticket. We charge you a surcharge that has been less than TicketMaster's or Live Nation's in all cases so far to pay for the costs of doing this - it's not a profit center for us. We have essentially stopped scalping by doing these things - because we want true fans to be able to get great seats and not get ripped off by these parasites.

I assure you nobody in the NIN camp supplies or supports the practice of supplying tickets to these re-sellers because it's not something we morally feel is the right thing to do. We are leaving money on the table here but it's not always about money.
Being completely honest, it IS something I've had to consider. If people are willing to pay a lot of money to sit up front AND ARE GOING TO ANYWAY thanks to the rigged system, why let that money go into the hands of the scalpers? I'm the one busting my ass up there every night. The conclusion really came down to it not feeling like the right thing to do - simple as that.

My guess as to what will eventually happen if / when Live Nation and TicketMaster merges is that they'll move to an auction or market-based pricing scheme - which will simply mean it will cost a lot more to get a good seat for a hot show. They will simply BECOME the scalper, eliminating them from the mix.

Nothing's going to change until the ticketing entity gets serious about stopping the problem - which of course they don't see as a problem. The ultimate way to hurt scalpers is to not support them. Leave them holding the merchandise. If this subject interests you, check out the following links. Don't buy from scalpers, and be suspect of artists singing the praises of the Live Nation / TicketMaster merger. What's in it for them?

(for the links go to NIN http://bit.ly/16taGa)

* I fully realize by playing those venues we are getting into bed with all these guys. I've learned to choose my fights and at this point in time it would be logistically too difficult to attempt to circumvent the venues / promoter / ticketing infrastructure already in place for this type of tour. For those of you about to snipe "it's your fault for playing there, etc... " - I know it is."

Wobbie

VERY interesting. I am getting more and more bummed as I get shut out of more and more concerts.

restlesssoul

GREAT read. from all accounts, it doesnt look good when/if this merger gets approved. you think tickets are pricey now......

DeLukin

I'm not a big fan of The Reznor, but you gotta hand it to the guy - he's got some king-sized stones to lay it out there like that. Very enlightening.

Red Lukin2

Trent's the man

randallanddarcy

I'm not a fan of his tunes, but he seems like a cool guy because:
1. The above
2. A few years ago in Australia he wrote some big screed because HMV or someone were selling his albums at a more expensive price than other acts. When he asked why he was told: 'because people will pay it'. He wrote a big screed about this, too.
3. Calling Chris Cornell out on Twitter about how shite 'Scream' is.

wolfbear

Great read. Thanks for posting.

restlesssoul

Red Lukin2 wrote:

Trent's the man

he truly is.

JordyWordy

Go on Trent ya good thing.

interesting that he says at the end that taking on these guys and trying to play different venues is just logistically too difficult.

that sounds a LOT like the problems PJ had in mid 90's touring in non-ticketmaster venues...a logistical & economic nightmare, and ends up taking gigs away from places the fans can get to & somewhat defeats the purpose of it all. it doesnt seem like much has changed really in 13 years.

LukinFan

wolfbear wrote:

Great read. Thanks for posting.

ditto

stuckinline

imalive wrote:

VERY interesting. I am getting more and more bummed as I get shut out of more and more concerts.

+1

PearlJamaholic

i wish pj was more like this still. seems the older trent gets the more he cares about the fans. he seems to do more and more while our favorite band seems to care less and less. ill be trying to get my pre-sale ticket tomorrow.

PJGARDEN

PearlJamaholic wrote:

i wish pj was more like this still. seems the older trent gets the more he cares about the fans. he seems to do more and more while our favorite band seems to care less and less. ill be trying to get my pre-sale ticket tomorrow.

I think PJ still cares about their fans but there is only so much one band, or even a handful of bands can do. They are up against multi milllion dollar companies and their hands are tied. I really wish there was something that could be done about ticket prices but I don't see any changes in the near future. I appreciate Trent writing the article and shedding a little light on what really goes on.

bigeye21

GREAT READ! Thanks for posting.

intodeep

i'm not a big NIN fan but that was a great read.

Cob

It's ALL BULLSHIT, I tried to buy tickets to the Bruce Springsteen show at the Toyota Center in Houston, it was announced that tickets would go on sale on a Sat. at 10 am, okay I think to myself. I head down to the Toyota Center at 9:30 on Sat., I walk up to the ticket window, only to be told they won't go on sale at their box office till Monday! HUH????? I asked isn't he playing here?? She says yes, then I ask and tickets go on sale at 10 am, she says correct, but they changed the rule last year that they can't sell them at their box office till the following business day, again HUH????? I asked her why and she didn't have any answers.

Now the Toyota Center DOES NOT USE Live Nation or Ticketmaster, but guess what, someone is making a lot of money doing it this way, I went to a Randalls (grocery store in Houston) and got lower level seats for face value, I got LUCKY. I remember when people were first allowed to call in and purchase tickets with a C.C, the tickets would go on sale at the venue or a Ticketmaster or Ticket Tron (when they were still around) at say 8 am, well if you were buying over the phone with a C.C., you had to wait til 10 or 10:30 am till you could buy them. This stopped all this BULLSHIT that takes place now, like tickets selling out in minutes.

It's pretty simple, if any band charges $100.00 for every ticket at a 20,000 venue and they sell out in minutes, they don't really give a shit what scalper, tickets brokers or people on Craigslist charge, because guess what, THEY ALREADY made their money. That's why most bands don't give a shit or hardly ever comment on it. I have been to over 500 concerts in my life, so I know all the ins and outs and how to avoid all the BULLSHIT. My favorite is when a show is "Sold Out" because all the ticket brokers bought up all the tickets, so the average fan stays home thinking it's sold out, then you show up outside the venue and tickets are selling for under face value.

PJGARDEN

Cob wrote:

It's ALL BULLSHIT, I tried to buy tickets to the Bruce Springsteen show at the Toyota Center in Houston, it was announced that tickets would go on sale on a Sat. at 10 am, okay I think to myself. I head down to the Toyota Center at 9:30 on Sat., I walk up to the ticket window, only to be told they won't go on sale at their box office till Monday! HUH????? I asked isn't he playing here?? She says yes, then I ask and tickets go on sale at 10 am, she says correct, but they changed the rule last year that they can't sell them at their box office till the following business day, again HUH????? I asked her why and she didn't have any answers.

Now the Toyota Center DOES NOT USE Live Nation or Ticketmaster, but guess what, someone is making a lot of money doing it this way, I went to a Randalls (grocery store in Houston) and got lower level seats for face value, I got LUCKY. I remember when people were first allowed to call in and purchase tickets with a C.C, the tickets would go on sale at the venue or a Ticketmaster or Ticket Tron (when they were still around) at say 8 am, well if you were buying over the phone with a C.C., you had to wait til 10 or 10:30 am till you could buy them. This stopped all this BULLSHIT that takes place now, like tickets selling out in minutes.

It's pretty simple, if any band charges $100.00 for every ticket at a 20,000 venue and they sell out in minutes, they don't really give a shit what scalper, tickets brokers or people on Craigslist charge, because guess what, THEY ALREADY made their money. That's why most bands don't give a shit or hardly ever comment on it. I have been to over 500 concerts in my life, so I know all the ins and outs and how to avoid all the BULLSHIT. My favorite is when a show is "Sold Out" because all the ticket brokers bought up all the tickets, so the average fan stays home thinking it's sold out, then you show up outside the venue and tickets are selling for under face value.

From my experience with Toyota Center for various events, I think I would rather go through Live Nation or Ticketmaster.

edwho

Ticket Holds Scrutinized

Pollstar posted on Friday March 13, 2009

What’s often referred to as the industry’s “dirty little secret” – the widely acknowledged but rarely admitted-to practice of selling tickets held back from the public onsale at what are perceived to be inflated prices – was given somewhat of a “sunshine” treatment by the Wall Street Journal March 11.

The news that artists, managers, promoters and others sell their own tickets wasn’t nearly as breathtaking to those in the industry as the fact that it was actually copped to – even if only indirectly.

The Journal’s Ethan Smith used a Neil Diamond concert at New York’s Madison Square Garden as an example, though any number of artists could likely have been singled out for the anecdote.

The paper reported that more than 100 tickets became available for sale, for hundreds of dollars more than face value, on Ticketmaster’s TicketExchange.com Web site less than a minute after the onsale began – and reported they were Diamond’s own tickets.

Smith reported that Ticketmaster’s former and current CEOs – the latter being Diamond manager Irving Azoff – have acknowledged the arrangement, as has an unnamed source familiar with AEG Live, which promoted the show. However, neither Azoff nor the AEG Live source was directly quoted.

However, ex-Ticketmaster CEO Sean Moriarty reportedly told a gathering of more than 100 ticket brokers last May that his company had used TicketExchange to sell 160 Neil Diamond tickets over two shows at marked-up prices.

“That’s a choice up to Neil and management,” Moriarty was quoted by the Journal as saying.

“It’s our job to make our clients aware of every opportunity that exists,” Azoff told the paper in an interview last year.

It should be noted that TicketExchange is distinct from TicketsNow, also owned by Ticketmaster. The former sells premium, primary tickets – though the distinction may be lost on fans who fail to read the Web site’s Frequently Asked Questions.

However, with a slogan on the front page that says “Buy tickets. Sell tickets. It’s that simple,” the confusion is understandable. Joe Freeman, Ticketmaster’s VP for legal affairs, also told the paper the tickets appearing through the “Marketplace” tab are rarely offered by fans for sale.

According to Freeman, “the vast majority of tickets are sold by the artists and their promoters with the cooperation of Ticketmaster.” In fact, he says that for any concert to which Ticketmaster carries so-called platinum seats, the Marketplace sells only artist-sanctioned tickets.

But that doesn’t mean that Ticketmaster does not facilitate a secondary market.

Azoff told the paper in a March 10 interview that when ticket brokers resell ducats without promoter or artist permission, it “drives up prices to fans, without putting any money in the pockets of artists or rights holders.”

Yet several top artist managers and TM execs told the paper the company routinely offers to list hundreds of the best tickets per concert and divides the extra revenue, which can amount to more than $2 million on a major tour, with artists and promoters.

These are the tickets that wind up on TicketExchange.

But it’s well known in the industry that some major concert tours involve the pricing and sale of “official” tickets in such a way that they appear to be resales by fans or brokers but are actually artist and promoter holds.

Of course, it must be said that not all artists and promoters engage in the practice of selling some or all of their allotments. The WSJ article raised hackles with some promoters who did not want to be associated with the practice.

“Jam Productions does not sell tickets to the secondary market nor to any scalpers,” Jam’s Jerry Mickelson and Arny Granat told Pollstar. “Jam has chosen not to participate in this practice because we respect the consumers' right to obtain the best seats at the lowest possible price that is listed on the face of each ticket. We do not feel we should drive up the prices any further and we work diligently to protect the fans who come to Jam concerts and events.”

But that doesn’t prevent artists and others from selling their allotments, according to the Journal, citing recent examples including tours by Bon Jovi, Celine Dion, Van Halen, and the current Elton John / Billy Joel outing. Not surprisingly, the WSJ couldn’t find representatives for artists willing to return phone calls on the subject.

However, the Journal still found fault with Ticketmaster’s online efforts, including a link to the “Marketplace” page for Britney Spears tickets that said “Browse premium seats plus tickets posted by fans.” Shortly after an inquiry by the Journal, the message was removed and prices fell.

Another criticism of Ticketmaster’s site is that tickets that do not sell at the inflated platinum prices can also be moved between TicketExchange and the lower-priced main inventory without warning to consumers.

Secondary marketers and brokers complain that artists sell their own tickets for inflated prices but rarely admit doing so, preferring to let Ticketmaster take the heat.

“It’s not fair for artists to hide behind Ticketmaster / TicketExchange,” Baltimore broker Paul McCann told the Journal. Ticketmaster’s Azoff told the paper the company is working on ticket origin transparency on TicketExchange. “It’s cloudy and has to be cleaned,” Azoff said.

To be sure, the secondary market is a thorny topic and has been for years. Artists, managers, promoters and venues may wish to draw a distinction between ticket brokering “scalpers” and their own attempts to monetize that market as a legitimate endeavor, but fans are hard pressed to see the difference.

And ultimately, it’s Ticketmaster that gets the public relations black eye – and not the beloved artist who actually put the higher-priced tickets on sale. Hence, the “dirty little secret.”

--Deborah Speer

DewieCox

I dunno why bands don't do what David Gilmour did on his solo tour. If tickets showed up on the secondary market(ebay, stubhub, etc), they were removed from sale, the original purchase was cancelled and the tix were resold. Simple as that.

Ricsard

I like Trent and the way he handles these situations.

PJRock75

Ricsard wrote:

I like Trent and the way he handles these situations.

To be honest, nobody does it better. TR is just like PJ in the way that he sincerely cares for his fans and their rights.

sickgirl

I almost wish that you couldn't buy tickets online at all. When I was a kid my parents use to take me with them to buy tickets. We would wait in line for hours, but it was a lot of fun because everyone around us was really into which ever band it was. It was kind of like a tailgate thing, a really fun and happy atmosphere. I would totally camp out overnight to try to get good seats. Of course I can see how that would be a huge pain in the ass for a lot of people.

lephty

sickgirl wrote:

I almost wish that you couldn't buy tickets online at all. When I was a kid my parents use to take me with them to buy tickets. We would wait in line for hours, but it was a lot of fun because everyone around us was really into which ever band it was. It was kind of like a tailgate thing, a really fun and happy atmosphere. I would totally camp out overnight to try to get good seats. Of course I can see how that would be a huge pain in the ass for a lot of people.

i can somewhat agree. it felt more fair to be waiting in line than to have some LPB or some buying program eating tickets online...

BUT

I just got 3 tickets online to NIN at Jones Beach like 30secs ago:)

PJRock75

I miss doing that too....but I remember how pissed we would all get at the TM clerk because he/she wasn't going fast enough for our standards. Good times though, met some cool locals that way.

lephty

PJRock75 wrote:

I miss doing that too....but I remember how pissed we would all get at the TM clerk because he/she wasn't going fast enough for our standards. Good times though, met some cool locals that way.

i remember meeting some girl while waiting in line for the fragile tour tickets that worked at a strip club.. she was not a stripper though.. she was a cleaner with a lot of interesting stories! i still remember her goth look and red yarn weaved into her fro fairly vividly=p

MB_Angel10

The entire TM/LN debacle makes me really miss getting tickets the old fashioned way...

JaneNY

PJRock75 wrote:

Ricsard wrote:

I like Trent and the way he handles these situations.

To be honest, nobody does it better. TR is just like PJ in the way that he sincerely cares for his fans and their rights.

This is very very true. He is very responsive to us and always giving us something new. There's pretty much been a steady stream of new and surprising things since he went independent. We get videos, sneakily torrented stuff (by him) that everyone wants, a remix site where you can download multi-track files of his music, remix it yourself, upload it, and listen to others' work. How about a FREE album? We get our NAMES printed on the pre-sale tickets, which helps eliminate scalping (and the tickets were gorgeous themselves). He's even set up a tracker for torrenting things he's released, through nin.com He makes it a lot of fun to be a NIN fan.

Cob

It's all a huge racket, all the venues, TicktBastard and Live Nation are all in bed together. And yes the old way in the 80's was way better, it was first come first serve, then they went to the lottery system so people wouldn't camp out all night. Everyone was given a small ticket with a number, say 1-200, then you would come back an hour before the tickets went on sale, they would pull a #, say it was 57, if you had 57 you were first in line second in line was 58 and so on. This worked great, until scalpers in Houston where I am from, started paying homeless people to buy tickets for them.

Also as I've said before, when tickets would go on sale back then, say they went on sale at 10 am, you couldn't call and buy tickets (there was no internet then) until a full 2 hours AFTER the tickets went on sale. This is what they should do know, if you want tickets you should HAVE to go buy them, THEN 2 hours later let people call or get them on the website. I'm 39 years old and have been to about +/- 500 concerts and have seen the concert industry go through a LOT of changes especially the way tickets are sold and most have been bad, at first a dollar or two for a service fee was understandable, but $15-$20 on a $75 ticket is BULLSHIT. And all the ticket brokers and scalpers are ruthless, in the 80's they would mark up the tickets MAYBE 50% or 75% depending on the band, now it's 100% to 300%.

The bands and artist DON"T GIVE A SHIT for one simple reason, THEY MAKE THEIR MONEY NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS!! If they sell 20,000 tickets at $100.00 each, they have made there money, it doesn't matter what they sell for in the secondary market, that's just how a free market works and I can almost understand. The problem I have is that the way tickets are sold through TicketBastard is basically a monopoly, if the merge with Livenation goes through, it will be a monopoly carved in stone. The other huge problem I have from reading this article is bands and artist selling tickets for thousands of dollars on some of these sites, that seems not right in so many ways. If you want to do that at least make them available through your website for your fans or people in your fan club and not let some company also take a piece of the pie. I think this year, the way the economy is, will be a big test if this crazy ticket system will continue, bands and artist charge way more for tickets, I think, because CD sales have been on a sharp decline since 2000. I think a lot of these bands and artist are losing site that the fans are the ones that pay their bills and the more this tickets system becomes total BS, the more people will stay away from the concerts. And since the way to make money for them is touring, it will at least put a dent in their income.

Cob

MB_Angel10 wrote:

The entire TM/LN debacle makes me really miss getting tickets the old fashioned way...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOSalcHVXnU