Why not nationalize the banks?

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Comments

  • VINNY GOOMBA
    VINNY GOOMBA Posts: 1,826
    Cosmo wrote:
    VINNY GOOMBA wrote:
    Cosmo wrote:
    To Vinny...
    No one forced the banks to givwe out bad loans... the Government didn't force the banks into givig loans to people knowing full well that they were not able to pay thme back.
    The banks got into this mess due to one thing... GREED.

    Cosmo, whether the government forced banks to do this or not-- doesn't matter. I agree with you. Read my earliest post where I state how banks may have found laws like the CRA favorable to themselves, and may have co-authored them.

    Of course I agree that greed is the major player here.

    I don't see how any oversight of the CURRENT SYSTEM is ever going to do any good. We need to reform the banking system. Period.
    ...
    The oversight needs to be placed on the TAXPAYER Dollars that will be directed towards the banks. Those are NOT dollars the banks have earned... they are dollars being given to them BY THE GOVERNMENT. To say the government should not hold the banks accountable for our dollars is insanity.

    I agree. And there was supposed to be oversight of the first bailout. How's that working out, anyway?
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    VINNY GOOMBA wrote:
    I'll do you one better. Everyone of them (CEOs and any of the other architects of this schemes, including any politicians involved) BOOM-- in the slammer ASAP. I think confidence would return at an all time level if we actually showed the country that accountability is on the comeback.

    But seriously, this needs to happen-- a class action lawsuit against the people responsible in these banks. You're a lawyer in a matter of months... Spearhead the effort! :D

    We keep coddling these people that continually rip us off. I believe there are enough laws in place to try each and every one of them as it stands. Continuing to give them taxpayer money, while shaking your pointer finger saying, "Oh, we'll regulate you! We'll watch you like a hawk! We know you need this, but you better not spend it on yourselves, now!" isn't cutting it.

    The problem is that the law is so patchwork and variable and confusing and contradictory that it is easy, and maybe even honest, for these people to say they had no idea they were doing something illegal. The biggest deterrent to foreign investment here is not our tax rates or anything like that... it is the general uncertainty businesses face with respect to knowing what the law is and will be. Like the businesses, our government only thinks short term. There's a big political blow up, quick, poorly designed reactionary legislation to appease voters, and it all adds up to an incomprehensible and unpredictable corporate code.

    The people responsible for this mess generally followed the law. The problem is that the laws aren't very good or intelligent.

    In addition, the money they make goes to bankroll high-powered lawfirms that can bury any attempts at accountability in years of motions. Class action is almost impossible and criminal charges are incredibly difficult.

    Above all, these people have the upper hand. The laws on predatory lending and whatnot are written by legislators... legislators whose re-election depends upon campaign funding from credit companies and other special interests. The problem is huge. We need more than legislation... we need a paradigm shift in the way we think about our economic system. The banks, the reserve, the markets, etc. It all needs to change.

    I think this is why people argued with you even though you both seem to want the same things. We can no longer tout the free market (as it has traditionally been understood) as the solution. Nor can we think regulatory agencies will fix things either. The market needs regulation, but it needs to be enforced by criminal penalties vigorously enforced, not wrist-slapping fines from regulatory agencies staffed by people working for the businesses they're supposed to monitor.
  • VINNY GOOMBA
    VINNY GOOMBA Posts: 1,826
    soulsinging wrote:
    VINNY GOOMBA wrote:
    we need a paradigm shift in the way we think about our economic system. The banks, the reserve, the markets, etc. It all needs to change.

    I couldn't agree more with this. I believe if you fix the banking system, the rest comes naturally. You restore them to an operation that works on hard numbers and hard money, and you will see that it is impossible for them to create the bubbles that they create now. It takes a whole different mindset as a country to see this. Will it take regulation? Of course. How else would you undo all of the bad laws that have only furthered the problem? Just maybe after things got in order, a few new laws may have to be written, but let's try for as little as possible. If you're going to write laws, make them good! Take your time! All this rushed bullshit is horrible-- the bailouts, stimulus, Patriot Act: all rushed, all bad.

    Bad laws, as you put it, are completely taken advantage of. They're like these prescription drugs that are supposed to cure depression, but the main potential side effect is "thoughts of suicide."
  • acoustic guy
    acoustic guy Posts: 3,770
    First, I love your pic. Great MOVIE!
    Second, All we REALLY need to do is let the FREE MARKET WORK IT SELF OUT! KEEP GOVERMENT OUT!
    Sure a lot of companies will go under but sometimes thats what has to happen in order for things to level out. Everyone became pigs and cleaned out the troff. Well, now some pigs have to be sold and eaten for things to be okay.
    Free market Capitalism is the ONLY answer.
    Get em a Body Bag Yeeeeeaaaaa!
    Sweep the Leg Johnny.
  • VINNY GOOMBA
    VINNY GOOMBA Posts: 1,826
    acoustic guy wrote:
    First, I love your pic. Great MOVIE!
    Second, All we REALLY need to do is let the FREE MARKET WORK IT SELF OUT! KEEP GOVERMENT OUT!
    Sure a lot of companies will go under but sometimes thats what has to happen in order for things to level out. Everyone became pigs and cleaned out the troff. Well, now some pigs have to be sold and eaten for things to be okay.
    Free market Capitalism is the ONLY answer.

    Funny how that movie was just cheesey when you were a kid and it came out... Now it's cheesey, but kind of scary with how true it is.

    They live while we sleep!
  • Cosmo
    Cosmo Posts: 12,225
    acoustic guy wrote:
    First, I love your pic. Great MOVIE!
    Second, All we REALLY need to do is let the FREE MARKET WORK IT SELF OUT! KEEP GOVERMENT OUT!
    Sure a lot of companies will go under but sometimes thats what has to happen in order for things to level out. Everyone became pigs and cleaned out the troff. Well, now some pigs have to be sold and eaten for things to be okay.
    Free market Capitalism is the ONLY answer.
    ...
    The defining model of a completely free, un-restricted, un-regulated Free Market? L.A. Street Gang Drug Wars... or The Mafia.
    In those scenarios, there are absolutely no laws or regulations in place and the way to eliminate the competition is to... well, eliminate the competition. Of course, that is the extreme end of Capitalism.
    The point is... Capitalism NEEDs regulations, rules and laws because the greed of business is the same.. in a gang drug dealer, a small businessman looking to expand his fortune or the C.E.O. of Lehman Brothers.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • VINNY GOOMBA
    VINNY GOOMBA Posts: 1,826
    Cosmo wrote:
    acoustic guy wrote:
    First, I love your pic. Great MOVIE!
    Second, All we REALLY need to do is let the FREE MARKET WORK IT SELF OUT! KEEP GOVERMENT OUT!
    Sure a lot of companies will go under but sometimes thats what has to happen in order for things to level out. Everyone became pigs and cleaned out the troff. Well, now some pigs have to be sold and eaten for things to be okay.
    Free market Capitalism is the ONLY answer.
    ...
    The defining model of a completely free, un-restricted, un-regulated Free Market? L.A. Street Gang Drug Wars... or The Mafia.
    In those scenarios, there are absolutely no laws or regulations in place and the way to eliminate the competition is to... well, eliminate the competition. Of course, that is the extreme end of Capitalism.
    The point is... Capitalism NEEDs regulations, rules and laws because the greed of business is the same.. in a gang drug dealer, a small businessman looking to expand his fortune or the C.E.O. of Lehman Brothers.

    Why not just a Constitutional Federal Government, with the States defining what is actually criminal? Let banks play by the same rules as every other business, and we'll see what kind of ruthless edge anyone actually has over anyone else. When people are wronged, they seek out law enforcement and take it from there.

    It's all been written, and is ready to go... We just refuse to acknowledge it.
  • Cosmo
    Cosmo Posts: 12,225
    VINNY GOOMBA wrote:
    ...
    Cosmo wrote:
    The oversight needs to be placed on the TAXPAYER Dollars that will be directed towards the banks. Those are NOT dollars the banks have earned... they are dollars being given to them BY THE GOVERNMENT. To say the government should not hold the banks accountable for our dollars is insanity.

    ...
    I agree. And there was supposed to be oversight of the first bailout. How's that working out, anyway?
    ...
    You might want to check the details... in the original Bush Bank Bailout set up by Treasury secretary Paulson...
    http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2008/09/ ... -congress/
    Specifically... read Section 8:
    "Sec. 8. Review. "

    "Decisions by the Secretary pursuant to the authority of this Act are non-reviewable and committed to agency discretion, and may not be reviewed by any court of law or any administrative agency."
    ...
    Non-Reviewable and may not be reviewed by ANY Court or Administrative Agency!!!

    More Bush Administration closed door business deals.
    of course that shit didn't work... the banks KEPT the Taxpayer Dollars to shore up their bad assets and buy up ailing financial institutions to eliminate their competition. Non-Reviewable... immune to courts and government scrutiny... that is the definition of 'Get Government out of the Way and Let Business Decide'.
    and that is what you get with Free (un-regulated) Markets.
    ...
    Yet, another example that business cannot be trusted to operate without some sort of regulatory agency breathing down their fucking greedy necks.
    Come on, kiddies... this wasn't ancient history... if was last fucking Fall, fer cripe's sake.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • VINNY GOOMBA
    VINNY GOOMBA Posts: 1,826
    Cosmo wrote:
    VINNY GOOMBA wrote:
    ...
    Cosmo wrote:
    The oversight needs to be placed on the TAXPAYER Dollars that will be directed towards the banks. Those are NOT dollars the banks have earned... they are dollars being given to them BY THE GOVERNMENT. To say the government should not hold the banks accountable for our dollars is insanity.

    ...
    I agree. And there was supposed to be oversight of the first bailout. How's that working out, anyway?
    ...
    You might want to check the details... in the original Bush Bank Bailout set up by Treasury secretary Paulson...
    http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2008/09/ ... -congress/
    Specifically... read Section 8:
    "Sec. 8. Review. "

    "Decisions by the Secretary pursuant to the authority of this Act are non-reviewable and committed to agency discretion, and may not be reviewed by any court of law or any administrative agency."
    ...
    Non-Reviewable and may not be reviewed by ANY Court or Administrative Agency!!!

    More Bush Administration closed door business deals.
    of course that shit didn't work... the banks KEPT the Taxpayer Dollars to shore up their bad assets and buy up ailing financial institutions to eliminate their competition. Non-Reviewable... immune to courts and government scrutiny... that is the definition of 'Get Government out of the Way and Let Business Decide'.
    and that is what you get with Free (un-regulated) Markets.
    ...
    Yet, another example that business cannot be trusted to operate without some sort of regulatory agency breathing down their fucking greedy necks.
    Come on, kiddies... this wasn't ancient history... if was last fucking Fall, fer cripe's sake.

    Government giving banks, OR ANY OTHER BUSINESS TAXPAYER MONEY COULDN'T BE ANY FURTHER FROM BEING REPRESENTATIVE OF A FREE MARKET.

    So yes, I agree with you that if you're going to get government involved, of course you have to make sure the money is being spent right. In a free market, bailout money wouldn't exist to begin with.
  • VINNY GOOMBA
    VINNY GOOMBA Posts: 1,826
    Cosmo wrote:
    VINNY GOOMBA wrote:
    ...
    Cosmo wrote:
    The oversight needs to be placed on the TAXPAYER Dollars that will be directed towards the banks. Those are NOT dollars the banks have earned... they are dollars being given to them BY THE GOVERNMENT. To say the government should not hold the banks accountable for our dollars is insanity.

    ...
    I agree. And there was supposed to be oversight of the first bailout. How's that working out, anyway?
    ...
    You might want to check the details... in the original Bush Bank Bailout set up by Treasury secretary Paulson...
    http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2008/09/ ... -congress/
    Specifically... read Section 8:
    "Sec. 8. Review. "

    "Decisions by the Secretary pursuant to the authority of this Act are non-reviewable and committed to agency discretion, and may not be reviewed by any court of law or any administrative agency."
    ...
    Non-Reviewable and may not be reviewed by ANY Court or Administrative Agency!!!

    More Bush Administration closed door business deals.
    of course that shit didn't work... the banks KEPT the Taxpayer Dollars to shore up their bad assets and buy up ailing financial institutions to eliminate their competition. Non-Reviewable... immune to courts and government scrutiny... that is the definition of 'Get Government out of the Way and Let Business Decide'.
    and that is what you get with Free (un-regulated) Markets.
    ...
    Yet, another example that business cannot be trusted to operate without some sort of regulatory agency breathing down their fucking greedy necks.
    Come on, kiddies... this wasn't ancient history... if was last fucking Fall, fer cripe's sake.

    Also, if this is the original Bush bailout, how much did it change? I remember Congressmen telling us (lying to us actually) that they were going to watch how these banks spent this money.

    Also, Bush is the worst, but let's not forget our current fearless leader also voted for this bullshit.

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