Obama orders more troops to Afganistan

John Briggs 2008

Obama made it clear that he wanted to pull us out in Iraq and focus toward Afghanistan by supporting our efforts there as was intended. I don't like Obama but I know he stated that more than a few times. I never once heard it from McCain.

soulsinging

know1 wrote:

But I haven't heard a lot of distinctions about which war is justified and which is not.

I've just heard a lot of people cry for peace, bringing the troops home, etc.

And I don't really see how Iraq is unjust but Afganistan is not. I don't think there's a justification for any war.

Let's say 100 people see a guy shoot somebody in the street. A few days later, one person claims he thinks some other guy is carrying a bunch of guns and planning to kill somebody. Which guy are you justified in putting in jail? The guy everybody agrees did something wrong, or the guy one unreliable witness says might be potentially maybe thinking about something bad.

It's not that hard a concept.

Now, if you oppose war in all circumstances, then they're both wrong. But that doesn't mean there's no difference between the motivations underlying the wars, and you cannot deny or argue that. You just think neither is a good enough reason. Most of us, however, feel otherwise:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_War

None of this means Obama deceived anyone, nor is it a contradiction for those that wanted troops brought home from Iraq to be ok with the Afghanistan invasion.

Commy

know1 wrote:

And I don't really see how Iraq is unjust but Afganistan is not. I don't think there's a justification for any war.

I agree. both afghanistan and Iraq were unnecessary.

WaveCameCrashin

Commy wrote:

know1 wrote:

And I don't really see how Iraq is unjust but Afganistan is not. I don't think there's a justification for any war.

I agree. both afghanistan and Iraq were unnecessary.

Iraq yes but Afghanistan? I guess we should just ignore al qaeda. So should we have just not done nothing about Hitler either? :? Should we not defend our selves? :roll: :roll:

Commy

gvn2fly74 wrote:

Commy wrote:

know1 wrote:

And I don't really see how Iraq is unjust but Afganistan is not. I don't think there's a justification for any war.

I agree. both afghanistan and Iraq were unnecessary.

Iraq yes but Afghanistan? I guess we should just ignore al qaeda. So should we have just not done nothing about Hitler either? :? Should we not defend our selves? :roll: :roll:

the taliban offered to put osama on trial prior to the invasion. that was ignored. so instead the US reinstalled the warlords, bombed a bunch of villages and put afghanistan back on the map as the world's leading heroine producer. and women's rights are as bad as they've ever been. some call it progress, but its as bad or worse as it was under the taliban. actually worse probably...now there are that many more religious fundamentalists out there, more pissed off than before.


war does not solve anything. quite the opposite. there are times when directed, concentrated acts of violence are needed to solve a problem, in the case of the hitlers and pol pots, or in the case dubai genocide or indonesian invasion. sometimes that's needed. but bombing villages to fight terror or stop genocide is as bad as the original acts of violence. its about as stupid as you can get.

Wobbie

Commy wrote:

war does not solve anything. quite the opposite. there are times when directed, concentrated acts of violence are needed to solve a problem, in the case of the hitlers and pol pots, or in the case dubai genocide or indonesian invasion. sometimes that's needed. but bombing villages to fight terror or stop genocide is as bad as the original acts of violence. its about as stupid as you can get.

Yep.....this thing has quagmire written all over it. It's about as "winnable" as Iraq. :(

Cosmo

Commy wrote:

the taliban offered to put osama on trial prior to the invasion. that was ignored. so instead the US reinstalled the warlords, bombed a bunch of villages and put afghanistan back on the map as the world's leading heroine producer. and women's rights are as bad as they've ever been. some call it progress, but its as bad or worse as it was under the taliban. actually worse probably...now there are that many more religious fundamentalists out there, more pissed off than before.


war does not solve anything. quite the opposite. there are times when directed, concentrated acts of violence are needed to solve a problem, in the case of the hitlers and pol pots, or in the case dubai genocide or indonesian invasion. sometimes that's needed. but bombing villages to fight terror or stop genocide is as bad as the original acts of violence. its about as stupid as you can get.

...
I think it can be done... but, it will require a lot of work.
First off... apologise to our NATO Allies and European friends. Admit it... we were arrogant dicks and we're sorry. We need their help and support in order to stabilize Afghanistan. Convince the rest of the world that Global Terrorism must be met with a united front, not a unilateral military strategy. if we cannot gain broad support from allies... then, call it quits.
Provide security. Station most of the combat troops along the border with Pakistan. That's where all of the problems come from. Let the Afghan security force operate in the major centers... let them take the lead in the outlying villages.
Build. Build schools, hospitals, mosques using local labor... not assholes imported from Tennesseee. Build what Afghans want, not what McDonalds and Starbucks want. Help their farmers and ranchers help themselves.
Position our forces as defenders, not invaders. Hold our troops accountable for bad actions. Avoid the shadow army of highly paid Soldiers of Fortune that we have in Iraq.
Put Pakistan on notice. Keep them as allies... but, allies that need to verify, because trust does not go far enough... especially in a country where the most popular name for newborn males is, 'Usama'.
Talk to Iran. (see 'Pakistan', above)
...
Hard work? Yes.

Songburst

gvn2fly74 wrote:

Commy wrote:

know1 wrote:

And I don't really see how Iraq is unjust but Afganistan is not. I don't think there's a justification for any war.

I agree. both afghanistan and Iraq were unnecessary.

Iraq yes but Afghanistan? I guess we should just ignore al qaeda. So should we have just not done nothing about Hitler either? :? Should we not defend our selves? :roll: :roll:

You do realize that there were quite a few years where the US did nothing (officially) about Hitler? He was Europe's problem until 1942.

Commy

Cosmo wrote:

Commy wrote:

the taliban offered to put osama on trial prior to the invasion. that was ignored. so instead the US reinstalled the warlords, bombed a bunch of villages and put afghanistan back on the map as the world's leading heroine producer. and women's rights are as bad as they've ever been. some call it progress, but its as bad or worse as it was under the taliban. actually worse probably...now there are that many more religious fundamentalists out there, more pissed off than before.


war does not solve anything. quite the opposite. there are times when directed, concentrated acts of violence are needed to solve a problem, in the case of the hitlers and pol pots, or in the case dubai genocide or indonesian invasion. sometimes that's needed. but bombing villages to fight terror or stop genocide is as bad as the original acts of violence. its about as stupid as you can get.

...
I think it can be done... but, it will require a lot of work.
First off... apologise to our NATO Allies and European friends. Admit it... we were arrogant dicks and we're sorry. We need their help and support in order to stabilize Afghanistan. Convince the rest of the world that Global Terrorism must be met with a united front, not a unilateral military strategy. if we cannot gain broad support from allies... then, call it quits.
Provide security. Station most of the combat troops along the border with Pakistan. That's where all of the problems come from. Let the Afghan security force operate in the major centers... let them take the lead in the outlying villages.
Build. Build schools, hospitals, mosques using local labor... not assholes imported from Tennesseee. Build what Afghans want, not what McDonalds and Starbucks want. Help their farmers and ranchers help themselves.
Position our forces as defenders, not invaders. Hold our troops accountable for bad actions. Avoid the shadow army of highly paid Soldiers of Fortune that we have in Iraq.
Put Pakistan on notice. Keep them as allies... but, allies that need to verify, because trust does not go far enough... especially in a country where the most popular name for newborn males is, 'Usama'.
Talk to Iran. (see 'Pakistan', above)
...
Hard work? Yes.

I agree with most of this. one thing though... the taliban is currently receiving 10% of all the money from heroine sold from afghanistan. that is the number one reason why they are even still around. hundreds of millions of dollars which is very ironic. they were hardline against drugs, now the sale of those drugs are one of the few reasons the taliban are still around. the problem is the feudal situation there with the war lords. so you're right, we need international help, to at least run these territories whenever the warlords are taken out. some are still sympathetic to the taliban. meanwhile there is no need to buildup troops on the border, as it is its costing too much. pull back, buy all the poppy from the farmers (that shit can be used by pharmeceuticals in the US) and bleed the taliban dry. violence is hardly needed, is actually counterproductive. every missfire or every piece of incorrect intelligence causes that many more people to mobilize against the US. so best course of action, bring in international support, buy all the poppy, bleed the taliban dry. no need for tanks and planes.

Motha Judson

Shoulda, woulda, coulda......

These things are in the past, you can't go back and change anything, and no one will be charged with war crimes or what have you as much as people here would like.

So lets focus on whats at hand.....getting Afganistan and Iraq to function on their own.

Commy

Motha Judson wrote:

Shoulda, woulda, coulda......

These things are in the past, you can't go back and change anything, and no one will be charged with war crimes or what have you as much as people here would like.

So lets focus on whats at hand.....getting Afganistan and Iraq to function on their own.

yeah we were discussing solutions. my solution with afghanistan is to buy all of their poppy, cutting the taliban's funding off at the source.


what do you think we should do with afghanistan?

kenny olav

if, back in the 80's, the Reagan administration had let Afghanistan be a socialist country where women went to school, instead of backing Bin Laden and the Mujahideen in order to fight the "evil empire", would we be talking about this right now? would the twin towers still be standing?

soulsinging

Kenny Olav wrote:

if, back in the 80's, the Reagan administration had let Afghanistan be a socialist country where women went to school, instead of backing Bin Laden and the Mujahideen in order to fight the "evil empire", would we be talking about this right now? would the twin towers still be standing?

God forbid... far better the way things are... can you imagine the horror of letting them slip into socialism? Capitalism is the only way to go... I mean, look how well it's working for us!

Austicman

The same thing could be said about Iraq. Supporting them aganist Iran and then taking it away. Both Bin Laden and Saddam had very personal reasons for hating America the way they did. Holy wars indeed :roll: They were just pissed because the USA left them high and dry againist Russians in Chetchnya and Iran respectively.

Motha Judson

Commy wrote:

Motha Judson wrote:

Shoulda, woulda, coulda......

These things are in the past, you can't go back and change anything, and no one will be charged with war crimes or what have you as much as people here would like.

So lets focus on whats at hand.....getting Afganistan and Iraq to function on their own.

yeah we were discussing solutions. my solution with afghanistan is to buy all of their poppy, cutting the taliban's funding off at the source.


what do you think we should do with afghanistan?

Here is a good read as to what should be done. Please read the whole thing before you tear it apart.

http://article.nationalreview.com/print ... Y1ZTVlMzA=