baseball HOF

shaggy15

So lets put a list of player (good or not) that u know never lifted a wight and played baseball.
Ordanary Player Hof
Andre DAwson
how about john Kruk
matt Stairs
rod Beck

SPEEDY MCCREADY

if fred mcgriff never took steroids.....

then he should be a first ballot hall of famer......

he put up tremendous numbers in the same era where everyone was "juiced"

but fred mcgriff may have to wait 15 years to make the hall just like jim rice had to wait....

mca47

Greg Maddux

He will be first round ballot (perhaps the only time someone will get a unanimous first rnd vote). He was always pretty much a thin guy when he was young, then put on some pounds and still destroyed batters without overpowering them.

The greatest pitcher of our generation, and one of the greatest sportsmen ever.

pjtradeking

mca47 wrote:

Greg Maddux

He will be first round ballot (perhaps the only time someone will get a unanimous first rnd vote). He was always pretty much a thin guy when he was young, then put on some pounds and still destroyed batters without overpowering them.

The greatest pitcher of our generation, and one of the greatest sportsmen ever.

You beat me to it again!! hahaha..Should get 100% of the vote...absolutely NO QUESTION he never took a THING EVER!! One of the biggest CLASSS ACTS OF ALL TIME!!

CROJAM95

I'd like to think Craig Biggio never juiced

He's also a local round these parts

pjtradeking

CROJAM95 wrote:

I'd like to think Craig Biggio never juiced

He's also a local round these parts

I have wondered about him...and Bagwell..Just dont know....

CROJAM95

pjtradeking wrote:

CROJAM95 wrote:

I'd like to think Craig Biggio never juiced

He's also a local round these parts

I have wondered about him...and Bagwell..Just dont know....

your right u just cant tell anymore


how bout Kenny Lofton

NoCode_inMT

Top of that list
Cal Ripken Jr.

CROJAM95

NoCode_inMT wrote:

Top of that list
Cal Ripken Jr.

I DONT KNOW PLAYING IN 2000+ STRAIGHT GAMES

I KID I KID

CAL IS AN ALL AROUND GREAT GUY

pjtradeking

CROJAM95 wrote:

pjtradeking wrote:

CROJAM95 wrote:

I'd like to think Craig Biggio never juiced

He's also a local round these parts

I have wondered about him...and Bagwell..Just dont know....

your right u just cant tell anymore


how bout Kenny Lofton

You know...he got a bit bigger late in hid career as well He use to be so scrawney....Just hard to tell with MOST of these guys..You look at a guy like Maddux, and you just know the guy was clean...

mca47

Ryne Sandberg

smithnic

I wouldn't put anyone on the list at all. Why the hell wouldn't you. They weren't illegal by baseball standards until 2003 anyways. There will always be exceptions if you look hard enough. Babe never played against black players. The guys in the 60's were doing amphetamines all over the place. It's super tricky nowadays.

Wobbie

pjtradeking wrote:

CROJAM95 wrote:

I'd like to think Craig Biggio never juiced

He's also a local round these parts

I have wondered about him...and Bagwell..Just dont know....

Bagwell juiced; Biggio maybe...

NoCode_inMT wrote:

Top of that list
Cal Ripken Jr.

Might have juiced :shock: ...probably not, but he didn't exactly look like this in the late 90s, did he?



What can I say? I'm a cynic. :roll:

Dissident67

Two that are already in Cal Ripken Jr. and Wade Boggs. A couple that are still playing that i dont think are juiced Mariano Rivera, Derek Jeter, and Trevor Hoffman

CROJAM95

Dissident67 wrote:

Two that are already in Cal Ripken Jr. and Wade Boggs. A couple that are still playing that i dont think are juiced Mariano Rivera, Derek Jeter, and Trevor Hoffman

If Jeter's name ever came out...I would give up baseball for good.


IT WOULD KINDA CRUSH ME



He's the equivalent of what PJ was/is to me during my formative years

Wobbie

CROJAM95 wrote:

If Jeter's name ever came out...I would give up baseball for good.


IT WOULD KINDA CRUSH ME



He's the equivalent of what PJ was/is to me during my formative years

I think you'll be OK.

It killed me when Jim Rice said (at the HOF induction) that he knew of two guys who didn't use....him and Ricky Henderson. Really??? The same Rickey Henderson who played with the A's from 1989 through 1995? Really? :shock:

Vedderman51

Bernie Williams

My alltime favorite Yankee. I doubt he will make the HOF but his number should be retired

SPEEDY MCCREADY

Vedderman51 wrote:

Bernie Williams

My alltime favorite Yankee. I doubt he will make the HOF but his number should be retired

great call....

8 straight years bernie hit over .300
played in 6 world series...
WON 4 world series....

and yet because of all the numbers the steroid freaks put up.....

bernie may never make the hall of fame........

and for all we know bernie could have been juiced too..........

smithnic

All this steroid stuff really does suck. Is using cortisone (a steroid) considered juicing? It's so hypocritical at times too.

I think the only sure fire HOF in my opinion would be Pedro. The guy was always 165 and struck out everyone! The guy put up dead ball era numbers in the steroid era!

SPEEDY MCCREADY

smithnic wrote:

All this steroid stuff really does suck. Is using cortisone (a steroid) considered juicing? It's so hypocritical at times too.

I think the only sure fire HOF in my opinion would be Pedro. The guy was always 165 and struck out everyone! The guy put up dead ball era numbers in the steroid era!

pedro and maddux...

there were a couple seasons in the 90's where maddux put up just CRAZY numbers....

greaticedtea

if bagwell and biggio both got in to the HOF it would be amazing

i think only biggio will, but if i ever found out either juiced i'd be crushed

SPEEDY MCCREADY

heres a name....Mark Grace..

i watched Grace play here in chicago for 15 years....i never ever once considered him a hall of famer...

was he a damned good ball player???? hell YES...

he hit over .300 nine times.....
he had more hits than any other ball player in the decade of the 90's......
he was an excellent fielder.....

yet there is no way in hell he would make the hall of fame(im pretty sure he has already been dropped from the ballot).....

but now ya have to look at his numbers differently .........due to all those inflated numbers the steroid freaks put up.....

xavier mcdaniel

I think that's something to consider is these guys without inflated numbers. Another pitcher is Mike Mussina, who had a good career pitching in the steroid era and pitching in the AL East, obviously not the level of Maddux and Martinez but on the second tier.

SPEEDY MCCREADY

xavier mcdaniel wrote:

I think that's something to consider is these guys without inflated numbers. Another pitcher is Mike Mussina, who had a good career pitching in the steroid era and pitching in the AL East, obviously not the level of Maddux and Martinez but on the second tier.

bert blyleven had over 3700 strikeouts....
and over 285 career wins....

and he is NOT a hall of famer....

strange.....

but dennis eckersley is considered a first ballot hall of famer??????

i dont get it.....

mfc2006

biggio & bagwell. it would be awesome of they went in at the same time.

jimed14

SPEEDY MCCREADY wrote:

smithnic wrote:

All this steroid stuff really does suck. Is using cortisone (a steroid) considered juicing? It's so hypocritical at times too.

I think the only sure fire HOF in my opinion would be Pedro. The guy was always 165 and struck out everyone! The guy put up dead ball era numbers in the steroid era!

pedro and maddux...

there were a couple seasons in the 90's where maddux put up just CRAZY numbers....

Maddux was better for a longer period of time, but i'll take Pedro's best season over Maddux's best season. Perdro's '99 season is still the best season by a pitcher I've ever seen.

As for the person who stated Maddux will get 100% of the vote, I just don't see it happening. It SHOULD, but it won't.

There is ALWAYS at least one old time writer douche who doesn't beleive that guys deserve 100% on their first try. Some folks didn't vote for Rickey Henderson, the greatest lead off hitter EVER ... they should have their voting privlidges taken away from them.

g under p

imalive wrote:

pjtradeking wrote:

CROJAM95 wrote:

I'd like to think Craig Biggio never juiced

He's also a local round these parts

I have wondered about him...and Bagwell..Just dont know....

Bagwell juiced; Biggio maybe...

NoCode_inMT wrote:

Top of that list
Cal Ripken Jr.

Might have juiced :shock: ...probably not, but he didn't exactly look like this in the late 90s, did he?



What can I say? I'm a cynic. :roll:

Who the fuck looks the same as they did 15 years ago. Do you look the same size as you did 15-20 years ago?

Peace

mca47

jimed14 wrote:

SPEEDY MCCREADY wrote:

smithnic wrote:

All this steroid stuff really does suck. Is using cortisone (a steroid) considered juicing? It's so hypocritical at times too.

I think the only sure fire HOF in my opinion would be Pedro. The guy was always 165 and struck out everyone! The guy put up dead ball era numbers in the steroid era!

pedro and maddux...

there were a couple seasons in the 90's where maddux put up just CRAZY numbers....

Maddux was better for a longer period of time, but i'll take Pedro's best season over Maddux's best season. Perdro's '99 season is still the best season by a pitcher I've ever seen.

As for the person who stated Maddux will get 100% of the vote, I just don't see it happening. It SHOULD, but it won't.

There is ALWAYS at least one old time writer douche who doesn't beleive that guys deserve 100% on their first try. Some folks didn't vote for Rickey Henderson, the greatest lead off hitter EVER ... they should have their voting privlidges taken away from them.

They will both go, but Maddux will take 100%. He's as old school as they come and those oldtimers will not balk at selecting him.
I'd take Maddux's '94-'95 seasons over Pedro's '99 any day, but they are both incredible pitchers that deserve the credit they earned.

Also...
Maddux won 18 gold gloves and was a very good batter (for a pitcher).

Oh, and he was hell of an athlete and a hell of a teammate who constantly put everyone before him.

jimed14

mca47 wrote:

They will both go, but Maddux will take 100%. He's as old school as they come and those oldtimers will not balk at selecting him.
I'd take Maddux's '94-'95 seasons over Pedro's '99 any day, but they are both incredible pitchers that deserve the credit they earned.

Also...
Maddux won 18 gold gloves and was a very good batter (for a pitcher).

Oh, and he was hell of an athlete and a hell of a teammate who constantly put everyone before him.

You don't have to sell me on Maddux the Hall of Famer ... again, to me, he SHOULD be 100% first ballot, but, there is ALWAYS one who doesn't do it. We'll see.

As for comparing their best seasons ... I tihnk it's important to look at the environment they were pitching in ...

Look at Bob Gibson's incredible 1968 season, probably the most dominant in the modern era ... 22-9 with a 1.12 ERA over 305 IP ... 28 complete games! Yikes ... but, that's the last year of the higher mound heights ... and, the league ERA was 2.90 ... that is the ERA for the whole league!

So, look at Maddux v Pedro ....

Maddux '94 - 16 - 6 202 IP 153 K 1.56 ERA 0.898 WHIP 10 CGs
Maddux '95 - 19 - 2 209 IP 181 K 1.63 ERA 0.811 WHIP 10 CGs

Pedro '99 - 23 - 4 213 IP 313 K 2.07 ERA 0.923 WHIP 5 CGs
Pedro '00 - 18 - 6 217 IP 284 K 1.74 ERA 0.737 WHIP 7 CGs

BUT ... The NL league ERA in 94 and 95 was 4.22 and 4.27 respecitvely ... the AL league ERA in 99 and 2000 was 5.02 and 5.07 respectively.

It's probably splitting hairs ... but, I think Pedro dominated a bit more in a tougher environment.

And again, if we're talking longevity, I WILL take Maddux ... I'm just comparing these INSANE seasons

Horos

smithnic wrote:

I wouldn't put anyone on the list at all. Why the hell wouldn't you. They weren't illegal by baseball standards until 2003 anyways. There will always be exceptions if you look hard enough. Babe never played against black players. The guys in the 60's were doing amphetamines all over the place. It's super tricky nowadays.

I agree, but what about players testing positive since the ban?

Also interesting not to see many pitchers, since the ban on steroids more pitchers have tested positive than all other position players combined.

jimed14

Horos wrote:

smithnic wrote:

I wouldn't put anyone on the list at all. Why the hell wouldn't you. They weren't illegal by baseball standards until 2003 anyways. There will always be exceptions if you look hard enough. Babe never played against black players. The guys in the 60's were doing amphetamines all over the place. It's super tricky nowadays.

I agree, but what about players testing positive since the ban?

Also interesting not to see many pitchers, since the ban on steroids more pitchers have tested positive than all other position players combined.

the relief pitchers, the ones with 80+ appearances, they are the ones I highly suspect and I'm sure those names will surface... but, finding out that a guy like Juan Rincon or LaTroy Hawkins used steroids isn't really a sexy headline.