Ishmael!

Heineken Helen · September 2007

I finally got around to reading this book over the weekend... and wow! I can't say alot of what was said hasn't crossed my mind before but it's just great to know somebody else has had the same ideas.

I took the train to the beach Saturday and brought it with me... I decided to book into a hotel and stay there for the night and I finished it yesterday. It's been a long time since I've read a book that had me so engrossed from the beginning.

Those of you who have read it... what the fuck do we do now though?

decides2dream · September 2007

honestly, that book was so hyped and i just don't get it. while it was semi-interesting how the story was told...there really was no 'new' information in there presented, at least to me...so i honestly don't get all the hoopla. i've read far more compelling work, and certainly better written. however, if the book opens the eyes of some who have not thought of such things, makes such ideas more accessible...well then it serves a purpose.

Indian Summer · September 2007

decides2dream wrote:

honestly, that book was so hyped and i just don't get it. while it was semi-interesting how the story was told...there really was no 'new' information in there presented, at least to me...so i honestly don't get all the hoopla. i've read far more compelling work, and certainly better written. however, if the book opens the eyes of some who have not thought of such things, makes such ideas more accessible...well then it serves a purpose.

I agree...it was okay...kinda over-hyped though.

Heineken Helen · September 2007

decides2dream wrote:

honestly, that book was so hyped and i just don't get it. while it was semi-interesting how the story was told...there really was no 'new' information in there presented, at least to me...so i honestly don't get all the hoopla. i've read far more compelling work, and certainly better written. however, if the book opens the eyes of some who have not thought of such things, makes such ideas more accessible...well then it serves a purpose.

well I had certainly thought of much of it before but it was nice to see some of my thoughts put into words as I'd never really been able to articulate them that way before.

And I like the simplicity of it... too many big words and I get bored pretty quickly

decides2dream · September 2007

Heineken Helen wrote:

well I had certainly thought of much of it before but it was nice to see some of my thoughts put into words as I'd never really been able to articulate them that way before.

And I like the simplicity of it... too many big words and I get bored pretty quickly

well i don't 'need' big words...but a bit better written is always nice.

anyway, i agree with it's thoughts...even if state in ever so obvious ways.

now, what to do with all that? i don't know. i don't think the author truly 'knows' either. identifying the problem, acknowledging it...always easier than coming up with a solution. personally, i don't think we can reverse our ways to such a degree to give up farming and our civilization...we've developed/lived this way too long. i think we simply need to learn ways to alter it for the greater good of the planet and ALL who inhabit it.

Heineken Helen · September 2007

decides2dream wrote:

well i don't 'need' big words...but a bit better written is always nice.
anyway, i agree with it's thoughts...even if state in ever so obvious ways.

now, what to do with all that? i don't know. i don't think the author truly 'knows' either. identifying the problem, acknowledging it...always easier than coming up with a solution. personally, i don't think we can reverse our ways to such a degree to give up farming and our civilization...we've developed/lived this way too long. i think we simply need to learn ways to alter it for the greater good of the planet and ALL who inhabit it.

yep, he certainly doesn't offer up any solutions whatsoever.

I said in another thread though that the main comforting part for me was when it said something about when man's gone the earth can begin to rebuild itself... makes me think maybe we should speed up our extinction process rather than slowing it down

PissBottleMan · September 2007

decides2dream wrote:

while it was semi-interesting how the story was told...there really was no 'new' information in there presented, at least to me...so i honestly don't get all the hoopla.

It's a good wake up call and an inspiring tale. You add in YIELD as a companion piece and it's really a magnificent piece of literature.

While there may not be new information to you...it's how you apply the information that's being presented.

Thumbs up to Quinn.

PBM

decides2dream · September 2007

Heineken Helen wrote:

yep, he certainly doesn't offer up any solutions whatsoever.

I said in another thread though that the main comforting part for me was when it said something about when man's gone the earth can begin to rebuild itself... makes me think maybe we should speed up our extinction process rather than slowing it down

agreed!
again, not new information at all. it's all out there, but i do think this book helped put it out for more people perhaps...and so that alone makes it 'worthwhile.' we are such a self-centered species overall, thinking we are the end-all, be-all of this world....and in reality, nothing could be further from the truth. so absolutely, it is nice when something, anything...puts our true role in the world, into a REAL perspective. we are not important. and i do believe without us, yes...the world would keep right on spinning, perhaps thriving even more.....and i for one find comfort in it.

PBM....of course i only offer my opinion, as do you...but NO way in this world would i call this book 'a magnificient piece of literature'...not even close! c'est la vie!

as to the rest, of course...that can be said of ANY information we receive/learn... and i already aggreed, it serves a 'purpose'...i just wish it was better written. you think it's 'magnificient, that's great! i think it's message is a necessary one, and the ONLY redeeming factor of the work. otherwise i'd not even think it worth looking at personally...and yes...i've seen/read the info before/elsewhere...so it was not eye-opening revelations for me. eh well.

skyeriverwinter · September 2007

..

Tom K · September 2007

I actually prefer The Story of B to ishmael..

laudenum · September 2007

Tom K wrote:

I actually prefer The Story of B to ishmael..

try to read all of quinns stuff,his ideas are in a story form much more interesting to read

hrd2imgn · September 2007

the sequel SUCKS

worth the read, pu tit by your shitter and read it bit by bit. nothing like crapping to a Gorilla talking

AllNiteThing · September 2007

Heineken Helen wrote:

yep, he certainly doesn't offer up any solutions whatsoever.

I said in another thread though that the main comforting part for me was when it said something about when man's gone the earth can begin to rebuild itself... makes me think maybe we should speed up our extinction process rather than slowing it down

Amazing book, amazing artist. Don't understand how some people can talk down about it, but to each their own I guess. If you're looking for 'solutions', at least from Quinn, look at some of his other work, especially 'Beyond Civilization' (think that's it). It kind of builds on Ishmael/MyIshmael/Story of B. I actually MUCH prefer 'Story of B'. Ishmael kind of introduces you to the ideas and opens your eyes to things you may never have thought of. B really extrapolates on that and takes it to the next level.

AllNiteThing · September 2007

decides2dream wrote:

agreed!
again, not new information at all. it's all out there, but i do think this book helped put it out for more people perhaps...and so that alone makes it 'worthwhile.' we are such a self-centered species overall, thinking we are the end-all, be-all of this world....and in reality, nothing could be further from the truth. so absolutely, it is nice when something, anything...puts our true role in the world, into a REAL perspective. we are not important. and i do believe without us, yes...the world would keep right on spinning, perhaps thriving even more.....and i for one find comfort in it.

PBM....of course i only offer my opinion, as do you...but NO way in this world would i call this book 'a magnificient piece of literature'...not even close! c'est la vie!

as to the rest, of course...that can be said of ANY information we receive/learn... and i already aggreed, it serves a 'purpose'...i just wish it was better written. you think it's 'magnificient, that's great! i think it's message is a necessary one, and the ONLY redeeming factor of the work. otherwise i'd not even think it worth looking at personally...and yes...i've seen/read the info before/elsewhere...so it was not eye-opening revelations for me. eh well.

What are some better books that are along the same line, in your opinion?

decides2dream · September 2007

AllNiteThing wrote:

What are some better books that are along the same line, in your opinion?

hmmmm...off the top of my head, fiction writing with important social commentary/message...that id' consider 'magnifiient literature'........

1984
animal farm

two brilliant works of fictional literature...that are so unbelievably well written AND contain social commentary, books with a 'message.' i am sure there are many others of that high caliber...that i cannot think of at the moment. hell, even jane austin touches about social class and the woes of women in england during her time.

i have said, i think the 'message' of ishmael is a good and important one...but sorry if i strongly disagree with it being a masterful piece of literature. i think it is a poorly written book. tis only my opinion. it's message is good, it's delivery is not. again, imo. and sorry too...i highly doubt that daniel quinn will go down as one of our 'great writers'...remembered for all time for his literary contributions. his points are still quite vaild, and i already said often enough if his work helps get the 'message' out to more of the masses, it's a good thing. but no, i will never consider it 'good writing.' like the visual arts, music, writing, films, etc....we all have different tastes, what we think is brilliant, and the whys of it.

so absolutely...glad you think it's a great book, and that quinn is an amazing artist. obviously many agree with you. i do not. i do agree it IS an important 'message' in there...but that's the only thing i see in it...and yes, i already stated...it was not a new message for me, so it lost all its redemptive value there b/c it didn't offer new information...nor a compelling, well-written story to me. so yes, i have no desire to read anymore of his work based on this one example. i mean, there ARE so many great books out there..or authors who style so appeals to me...so doesn't make sense otherwise. enjoy what you enjoy...as will i.........and time will tell if culture decides he is 'great' or not...and art of all forms is subjective in any case.

anyhooo..it's just my opinion.

AllNiteThing · September 2007

decides2dream wrote:

hmmmm...off the top of my head, fiction writing with important social commentary/message...that id' consider 'magnifiient literature'........

1984
animal farm

two brilliant works of fictional literature...that are so unbelievably well written AND contain social commentary, books with a 'message.' i am sure there are many others of that high caliber...that i cannot think of at the moment. hell, even jane austin touches about social class and the woes of women in england during her time.

i have said, i think the 'message' of ishmael is a good and important one...but sorry if i strongly disagree with it being a masterful piece of literature. i think it is a poorly written book. tis only my opinion. it's message is good, it's delivery is not. again, imo. and sorry too...i highly doubt that daniel quinn will go down as one of our 'great writers'...remembered for all time for his literary contributions. his points are still quite vaild, and i already said often enough if his work helps get the 'message' out to more of the masses, it's a good thing. but no, i will never consider it 'good writing.' like the visual arts, music, writing, films, etc....we all have different tastes, what we think is brilliant, and the whys of it.

so absolutely...glad you think it's a great book, and that quinn is an amazing artist. obviously many agree with you. i do not. i do agree it IS an important 'message' in there...but that's the only thing i see in it...and yes, i already stated...it was not a new message for me, so it lost all its redemptive value there b/c it didn't offer new information...nor a compelling, well-written story to me. so yes, i have no desire to read anymore of his work based on this one example. i mean, there ARE so many great books out there..or authors who style so appeals to me...so doesn't make sense otherwise. enjoy what you enjoy...as will i.........and time will tell if culture decides he is 'great' or not...and art of all forms is subjective in any case.

anyhooo..it's just my opinion.

Wow...defensive much?

That was a long rant directed at....? Did DQ piss in your wheaties or something? I get the whole 'not enjoying someones work', but no need to take it personally. :cool: I don't think anyone said he's the greatest thing since sliced bread, but as an author, his writing is certainly entertaining and at the least thought provoking.

I'm sure there are other quality works out there in the same vein, but I wouldn't put 1984 or Animal Farm in the same category. Agreed they are amazing classics with undertones of social/political commentary, but I see Quinn's work as a bit more non fiction. Sure, there's the fiction 'vehicle' that he creates, but it's really not worth paying attention to (maybe why you didn't enjoy it). The way he puts into focus the migration of tribal societies to modern societal structure, the 'evolution' of religions, etc etc so succinctly is really fascinating. I'm interested in reading more non-fiction based stories like that. Quinn, IMO, basically writes entertaining nonfiction. The 1984's are classic fiction with intentional social-commentary undertones. I would agree the 1984's are in a class by themselves, but then again you can't really compare Quinn's work with that style.

So my question, have you read any other books that expound the same ideas/messages as Quinn? I've yet to find anything that matches in the content and quality. Again, Story of B was the real gem. Ishmael was a little too 'elementary'.

decides2dream · September 2007

you think my response defensive? i thought it explanatory and informational...nothing defensive/offensive..expanding on my views, nothing more. so no, not defensive. i think something like an opinion on an entirely subjective subject is a silly thing to be defensive about. you asked me a direct question...i answered directly.

in regards to your further Qs, no, i can't say that i have...nor do i think it necessary. simply b/c i have not read other related subject works by no means make me think more of someone else's work. i don't care for his style. i find it too simplistic, not very vivid in descriptions...and far too easy for me to know where he's going next. perhaps other works by him are better, but as i've said...given how much OTHER work exists out there that appeals to me more....reading this one book was enough to make me not want to read anymore by this author.

bottomline, i was merely running with the 'magnificient piece of literature'....which i just clearly think book does NOT deserve such title. but as ever, we're all entitled to our opinions.

and honestly, his descriptions of the non-fiction..as well as the fiction...did not intrigue me much. i really can't put it much more plainly; for me, he is simply not a very good writer. i think the same information in another writer's hand might be far more well done. just imo. and basically, i was comparing to 'masterful pieces of literature'....thus why i chose what i did. i said enough, his work serves a purpose...just not enough of a purpose, for me, to warrant further reading of his work. perhaps down the road that will change....but yes, i just don't find him a compelling writer. for the information he presents, i'd rather read non-fiction than his quasi-reality/fiction work....for style...and for content.

AllNiteThing wrote:

Wow...defensive much? That was a long rant directed at....? Did DQ piss in your wheaties or something? I get the whole 'not enjoying someones work', but no need to take it personally. :cool: I don't think anyone said he's the greatest thing since sliced bread, but as an author, his writing is certainly entertaining and at the least thought provoking.

I'm sure there are other quality works out there in the same vein, but I wouldn't put 1984 or Animal Farm in the same category. Agreed they are amazing classics with undertones of social/political commentary, but I see Quinn's work as a bit more non fiction. Sure, there's the fiction 'vehicle' that he creates, but it's really not worth paying attention to (maybe why you didn't enjoy it). The way he puts into focus the migration of tribal societies to modern societal structure, the 'evolution' of religions, etc etc so succinctly is really fascinating. I'm interested in reading more non-fiction based stories like that. Quinn, IMO, basically writes entertaining nonfiction. The 1984's are classic fiction with intentional social-commentary undertones. I would agree the 1984's are in a class by themselves, but then again you can't really compare Quinn's work with that style.

So my question, have you read any other books that expound the same ideas/messages as Quinn? I've yet to find anything that matches in the content and quality. Again, Story of B was the real gem. Ishmael was a little too 'elementary'.

AllNiteThing · September 2007

decides2dream wrote:

in regards to your further Qs, no, i can't say that i have...nor do i think it necessary. simply b/c i have not read other related subject works by no means make me think more of someone else's work. i don't care for his style. i find it too simplistic, not very vivid in descriptions...and far too easy for me to know where he's going next. perhaps other works by him are better, but as i've said...given how much OTHER work exists out there that appeals to me more....reading this one book was enough to make me not want to read anymore by this author.

Indeed, I agree it is rather simplistic, especially if someone is already in the right 'mindset' for this book. It repeats some of the general themes, which can make it seem slow moving. That's why I suggest Story of B and some of his other works for a little more advanced and broad explorations of the same topics. I also don't think you have to have read other literature on the same topic to accurately judge DQ's work, but maybe because it was the first time I really put all of it together that it made a lasting impact with me. You said: "i've seen/read the info before/elsewhere...so it was not eye-opening revelations for me." I'm curious to know where/when you felt this impact and realization, and where you read it, because I'd like to explore other sources.

decides2dream wrote:

bottomline, i was merely running with the 'magnificient piece of literature'....which i just clearly think book does NOT deserve such title. but as ever, we're all entitled to our opinions.

What PBM was saying is that when you tie in Yield and PJ's influence from the book, it BECOMES a 'magnificent piece of literature'. He didn't say on its own, but rather when you put all the pieces together. I wasn't asking you for a list of BETTER literature, but a list of sources that you have read which talk about the same things as Ishmael and the sequels.

decides2dream wrote:

and honestly, his descriptions of the non-fiction..as well as the fiction...did not intrigue me much. i really can't put it much more plainly; for me, he is simply not a very good writer. i think the same information in another writer's hand might be far more well done. just imo. and basically, i was comparing to 'masterful pieces of literature'....thus why i chose what i did. i said enough, his work serves a purpose...just not enough of a purpose, for me, to warrant further reading of his work. perhaps down the road that will change....but yes, i just don't find him a compelling writer. for the information he presents, i'd rather read non-fiction than his quasi-reality/fiction work....for style...and for content.

I felt the writing was a little slow and repetitive. 'B' was written much better IMO. I don't think I would describe his writing style as amazing or anything, but certainly not unreadable. I guess I'm more concerned with the content and themes presented than how he keeps my attention. I had never really thought about some of the things he talked about, like his theory on the bibles' origins, the takers/leavers and his take on population control, food chain, etc. Maybe you've had more exposure to these topics and alternative approaches to related problems than I have to see DQ's work as worthy.

AllNiteThing · September 2007

HH....check out this site if you haven't already.

http://www.ishmael.com/welcome.cfm

Take a look at the 'questions and answers' section. DQ answers all kinds of questions on population, war, health, environmentalism, religion, etc etc. A wealth of information to follow up on the themes from his books and to get his take on all kinds of pertinent topics.

decides2dream · September 2007

AllNiteThing wrote:

Indeed, I agree it is rather simplistic, especially if someone is already in the right 'mindset' for this book. It repeats some of the general themes, which can make it seem slow moving. That's why I suggest Story of B and some of his other works for a little more advanced and broad explorations of the same topics. I also don't think you have to have read other literature on the same topic to accurately judge DQ's work, but maybe because it was the first time I really put all of it together that it made a lasting impact with me. You said: "i've seen/read the info before/elsewhere...so it was not eye-opening revelations for me." I'm curious to know where/when you felt this impact and realization, and where you read it, because I'd like to explore other sources.

honestly, non-fiction work...back in my younger days i was quite into animal rights...and i read a GREAT deal about factory farming, agriculture in general, etc, etc. i honestly cannot tell you exact titles anymore...was a long time ago. needless to say, it WAS extremely eye-opiening on many levels. i would also say some of my college science and even some sociology coursework...similar ideas/themes were touched upon.

AllNiteThing wrote:

What PBM was saying is that when you tie in Yield and PJ's influence from the book, it BECOMES a 'magnificent piece of literature'. He didn't say on its own, but rather when you put all the pieces together. I wasn't asking you for a list of BETTER literature, but a list of sources that you have read which talk about the same things as Ishmael and the sequels.

yea..i got that...but that STILL doesn't hold true to me. a 'magnificent piece of literature' NEEDS no other sources to make it so. it simply is. and yes, i get that now. i thought you were simply asking for books i would categorize as great works of lit, with similar themes...i did not realize you wanted works THAT closely related to quinn's....and as i've said, i have no examples. bottomline...for me...none of that makes a difference, i simply did not think it was a great book by any stretch. i also said, repeatedly now

...it did/does serve a 'purpose' if it opens up these ideas to people who otherwise did not know...

AllNiteThing wrote:

I felt the writing was a little slow and repetitive. 'B' was written much better IMO. I don't think I would describe his writing style as amazing or anything, but certainly not unreadable. I guess I'm more concerned with the content and themes presented than how he keeps my attention. I had never really thought about some of the things he talked about, like his theory on the bibles' origins, the takers/leavers and his take on population control, food chain, etc. Maybe you've had more exposure to these topics and alternative approaches to related problems than I have to see DQ's work as worthy.

for me, a book should be well-written period. particularly if you are writing fiction, there should be something to engage the reader. i had heard/read a lot of hype about this book. i was expecting it to have some 'profound message' and/or be brilliantly written. i hoped for both...i got neither. as i said, if this info was 'brand new' to someone...perhaps it did fit the 'profound' criteria. and as far as writing style, well we all have vastly different tastes. personally, i think he was lazy. haha. he WANTS to write non-fiction...but too lazy to make it non-fiction so as not to have fully back up his sources. again, i don't disagree with his message...not at all...it just would be FAR more profound/interesting/informative as a work of non-fiction....OR take the time to truly develop interesting characters and plot-line. now, some may say i am way off base and he did all that. all i can say to that is, i am glad they found that enjoyed that...but i did not. that's all.

AllNiteThing · September 2007

decides2dream wrote:

for me, a book should be well-written period. particularly if you are writing fiction, there should be something to engage the reader. i had heard/read a lot of hype about this book. i was expecting it to have some 'profound message' and/or be brilliantly written. i hoped for both...i got neither. as i said, if this info was 'brand new' to someone...perhaps it did fit the 'profound' criteria. and as far as writing style, well we all have vastly different tastes. personally, i think he was lazy. haha. he WANTS to write non-fiction...but too lazy to make it non-fiction so as not to have fully back up his sources. again, i don't disagree with his message...not at all...it just would be FAR more profound/interesting/informative as a work of non-fiction....OR take the time to truly develop interesting characters and plot-line. now, some may say i am way off base and he did all that. all i can say to that is, i am glad they found that enjoyed that...but i did not. that's all.

You are SOOO off-base, blah blah blah.

j/k I actually completely agree with everything you just said...amazing, eh? For me and probably most of his supporters, this was the first time it was all 'put together', per se. Probably for the fact that it is fairly simple to grasp and not boring (yet normally thorough) non-fiction. As I've tried expanding my horizons in the literary sense in this line of thought, I can look back and see how basic Ishmael/DQ is. But I also look at it fondly as one of those life changing books. Without it I don't know if it would have sparked me to do further research on certain topics or be as passionate about some things.

It probably holds more value as a starting-off point than it would to someone who's already been exploring those themes on their own.

PissBottleMan · September 2007

decides2dream wrote:

yea..i got that...but that STILL doesn't hold true to me. a 'magnificent piece of literature' NEEDS no other sources to make it so. it simply is.

I agree with that statement.

However, I enjoyed the read...it helped cement things that I believed to be true and opened my eyes to others.

Your literary standards are obviously higher and, apparently, more advanced.

Cheers,

PBM

Juberoo · September 2007

Helen I'm curious what you thought about Daniel Quinn's well voiced opinion that we shouldn't be offering aid to food impoverished countries because we are just holding off the inevitable. He feels that if we let these cultures die out naturally from starvation, we will help the earth recover quicker from the damage mankind does to it.

I'm listening with anticipation for your response.

catefrances · September 2007

Juberoo wrote:

Helen I'm curious what you thought about Daniel Quinn's well voiced opinion that we shouldn't be offering aid to food impoverished countries because we are just holding off the inevitable. He feels that if we let these cultures die out naturally from starvation, we will help the earth recover quicker from the damage mankind does to it.

I'm listening with anticipation for your response.

might i suggest that if quinn is so concerned about unsustainable population growth that he stop eating right now.

dunkman · September 2007

decides2dream wrote:

for me, a book should be well-written period. particularly if you are writing fiction, there should be something to engage the reader. i had heard/read a lot of hype about this book. i was expecting it to have some 'profound message' and/or be brilliantly written. i hoped for both...i got neither.

you written many books then?

Heineken Helen · September 2007

skyeriverwinter wrote:

strange... i just started reading this book and was going to post about it...

I won't give anything away then so.

Heineken Helen · September 2007

AllNiteThing wrote:

Amazing book, amazing artist. Don't understand how some people can talk down about it, but to each their own I guess. If you're looking for 'solutions', at least from Quinn, look at some of his other work, especially 'Beyond Civilization' (think that's it). It kind of builds on Ishmael/MyIshmael/Story of B. I actually MUCH prefer 'Story of B'. Ishmael kind of introduces you to the ideas and opens your eyes to things you may never have thought of. B really extrapolates on that and takes it to the next level.

Oh gimme time, lol. I'm already halfway through another book already which I only started going home from work yesterday

'call of the wild' by Guy Grieves... it's absolutely FANTASTIC!!!!!

Heineken Helen · September 2007

AllNiteThing wrote:

HH....check out this site if you haven't already.

http://www.ishmael.com/welcome.cfm

Take a look at the 'questions and answers' section. DQ answers all kinds of questions on population, war, health, environmentalism, religion, etc etc. A wealth of information to follow up on the themes from his books and to get his take on all kinds of pertinent topics.

Thank you, I'll have a look at that later.

Heineken Helen · September 2007

AllNiteThing wrote:

You are SOOO off-base, blah blah blah. j/k I actually completely agree with everything you just said...amazing, eh? For me and probably most of his supporters, this was the first time it was all 'put together', per se. Probably for the fact that it is fairly simple to grasp and not boring (yet normally thorough) non-fiction. As I've tried expanding my horizons in the literary sense in this line of thought, I can look back and see how basic Ishmael/DQ is. But I also look at it fondly as one of those life changing books. Without it I don't know if it would have sparked me to do further research on certain topics or be as passionate about some things.

It probably holds more value as a starting-off point than it would to someone who's already been exploring those themes on their own.

To be honest, when I started the book... I was REALLY really excited about it. I was reading 'on the road' before it but had to rush through that cos I knew Ishmael was waiting for me

. I thought 'this is the book that's going to change my life'. I was slightly disappointed when it finished... cos it didn't. It's made me more determined to find the one that will though

so maybe in that way, it will.

Heineken Helen · September 2007

Juberoo wrote:

Helen I'm curious what you thought about Daniel Quinn's well voiced opinion that we shouldn't be offering aid to food impoverished countries because we are just holding off the inevitable. He feels that if we let these cultures die out naturally from starvation, we will help the earth recover quicker from the damage mankind does to it.

I'm listening with anticipation for your response.

good question... sorry for leaving you listening with anticipation for almost 8 hours... you must be STARVING :eek:

Anyway, it DOES bring up a good point... and one that challenges everything I've always believed. I'm not quite sure. I think it's quite a conflicting thing to say though... because as 'takers' surely we wouldn't be overly willing to help out others? And, if you think about it, it's generally the wannabe LEAVERS who are more charitable.

Hmm... it's quite interesting actually. One I'll have to consider further. How about you Jubaroo? What do you think about it?

Heineken Helen · September 2007

http://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/0892818662/102-9122555-0716129?SubscriptionId=0AM07842GGE1QVDN6KR2

Anyone read that one? Sounds interesting if ya read the first review.

Ishmael!

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