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Al cy young

xavier mcdanielxavier mcdaniel Posts: 9,230
edited November 2012 in All Encompassing Trip
goes to C.C. Sabathia.
Reading 2004
Albany 2006 Camden 2006 E. Rutherford 2, 2006 Inglewood 2006,
Chicago 2007
Camden 2008 MSG 2008 MSG 2008 Hartford 2008.
Seattle 2009 Seattle 2009 Philadelphia 2009,Philadelphia 2009 Philadelphia 2009
Hartford 2010 MSG 2010 MSG 2010
Toronto 2011,Toronto 2011
Wrigley Field 2013 Brooklyn 2013 Brooklyn 2013 Philadelphia 2, 2013
Philadelphia 1, 2016 Philadelphia 2 2016 New York 2016 New York 2016 Fenway 1, 2016
Fenway 2, 2018
MSG 2022
St. Paul, 1, St. Paul 2 2023
MSG 2024, MSG 2024
Philadelphia 2024
"I play good, hard-nosed basketball.
Things happen in the game. Nothing you
can do. I don't go and say,
"I'm gonna beat this guy up."
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • kenshuntkenshunt Posts: 2,863
    looked like a good close race, the 3 contenders had simular stats.
    London 2005
    Toronto 2011 night 2
    Hamilton 2011
    London 2013
  • brainofjbbrainofjb Posts: 381
    should have been Josh Beckett!
    There's the moon asking to stay
    Long enough for the clouds to fly me away
  • xavier mcdanielxavier mcdaniel Posts: 9,230
    sabathia had 19 first place votes, beckett had eight and John Lackey had one.
    Reading 2004
    Albany 2006 Camden 2006 E. Rutherford 2, 2006 Inglewood 2006,
    Chicago 2007
    Camden 2008 MSG 2008 MSG 2008 Hartford 2008.
    Seattle 2009 Seattle 2009 Philadelphia 2009,Philadelphia 2009 Philadelphia 2009
    Hartford 2010 MSG 2010 MSG 2010
    Toronto 2011,Toronto 2011
    Wrigley Field 2013 Brooklyn 2013 Brooklyn 2013 Philadelphia 2, 2013
    Philadelphia 1, 2016 Philadelphia 2 2016 New York 2016 New York 2016 Fenway 1, 2016
    Fenway 2, 2018
    MSG 2022
    St. Paul, 1, St. Paul 2 2023
    MSG 2024, MSG 2024
    Philadelphia 2024
    "I play good, hard-nosed basketball.
    Things happen in the game. Nothing you
    can do. I don't go and say,
    "I'm gonna beat this guy up."
  • PoncierPoncier Posts: 16,678
    I would have figured the 20 wins would have put Beckett over the top...but I'm sure he's happier with the ALCS MVP and World Series ring.
    This weekend we rock Portland
  • kenshuntkenshunt Posts: 2,863
    xavier mcdaniel wrote:
    sabathia had 19 first place votes, beckett had eight and John Lackey had one.
    lol, well i guess they had reasons, but still did u know who was going to win before it was announced.
    London 2005
    Toronto 2011 night 2
    Hamilton 2011
    London 2013
  • brainofjbbrainofjb Posts: 381
    Poncier wrote:
    I would have figured the 20 wins would have put Beckett over the top...but I'm sure he's happier with the ALCS MVP and World Series ring.


    true..
    guess if the playoffs counted, it would be a different story
    There's the moon asking to stay
    Long enough for the clouds to fly me away
  • xavier mcdanielxavier mcdaniel Posts: 9,230
    kenshunt wrote:
    lol, well i guess they had reasons, but still did u know who was going to win before it was announced.


    no, i saw it online after it was announced:

    http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-alcyyoung&prov=ap&type=lgns
    Reading 2004
    Albany 2006 Camden 2006 E. Rutherford 2, 2006 Inglewood 2006,
    Chicago 2007
    Camden 2008 MSG 2008 MSG 2008 Hartford 2008.
    Seattle 2009 Seattle 2009 Philadelphia 2009,Philadelphia 2009 Philadelphia 2009
    Hartford 2010 MSG 2010 MSG 2010
    Toronto 2011,Toronto 2011
    Wrigley Field 2013 Brooklyn 2013 Brooklyn 2013 Philadelphia 2, 2013
    Philadelphia 1, 2016 Philadelphia 2 2016 New York 2016 New York 2016 Fenway 1, 2016
    Fenway 2, 2018
    MSG 2022
    St. Paul, 1, St. Paul 2 2023
    MSG 2024, MSG 2024
    Philadelphia 2024
    "I play good, hard-nosed basketball.
    Things happen in the game. Nothing you
    can do. I don't go and say,
    "I'm gonna beat this guy up."
  • gregkitefangregkitefan Posts: 1,115
    The better player did not win.
    38
  • PoncierPoncier Posts: 16,678
    gregkitefan wrote:
    The better player did not win.
    Kordell Stewart?? :D
    This weekend we rock Portland
  • drew0drew0 Posts: 943
    Poncier wrote:
    I would have figured the 20 wins would have put Beckett over the top...but I'm sure he's happier with the ALCS MVP and World Series ring.


    Sabathia pitched 40+ innings more than Beckett in the regular season - probably the biggest factor for him winning. I'd take 40 more innings than one more win. And, chances are that if Sabathia played another game he would have won it, so that one extra win probably didn't mean a whole lot when it came to voting. At least in my opinion.
    Pittsburgh 6/23/06
    Madison Square Garden 6/25/08
  • Solat13Solat13 Posts: 6,996
    drew0 wrote:
    Sabathia pitched 40+ innings more than Beckett in the regular season - probably the biggest factor for him winning. I'd take 40 more innings than one more win. And, chances are that if Sabathia played another game he would have won it, so that one extra win probably didn't mean a whole lot when it came to voting. At least in my opinion.

    That's interesting reasoning because Sabathia started 4 more games than Beckett and won one less. Wouldn't the better argument be that had Beckett started 4 more games - the same as Sabathia - that he would won 2 or 3 more games?
    - Busted down the pretext
    - 8/28/98
    - 9/2/00
    - 4/28/03, 5/3/03, 7/3/03, 7/5/03, 7/6/03, 7/9/03, 7/11/03, 7/12/03, 7/14/03
    - 9/28/04, 9/29/04, 10/1/04, 10/2/04
    - 9/11/05, 9/12/05, 9/13/05, 9/30/05, 10/1/05, 10/3/05
    - 5/12/06, 5/13/06, 5/27/06, 5/28/06, 5/30/06, 6/1/06, 6/3/06, 6/23/06, 7/22/06, 7/23/06, 12/2/06, 12/9/06
    - 8/2/07, 8/5/07
    - 6/19/08, 6/20/08, 6/22/08, 6/24/08, 6/25/08, 6/27/08, 6/28/08, 6/30/08, 7/1/08
    - 8/23/09, 8/24/09, 9/21/09, 9/22/09, 10/27/09, 10/28/09, 10/30/09, 10/31/09
    - 5/15/10, 5/17/10, 5/18/10, 5/20/10, 5/21/10, 10/23/10, 10/24/10
    - 9/11/11, 9/12/11
    - 10/18/13, 10/21/13, 10/22/13, 11/30/13, 12/4/13
  • PoncierPoncier Posts: 16,678
    drew0 wrote:
    Sabathia pitched 40+ innings more than Beckett in the regular season - probably the biggest factor for him winning. I'd take 40 more innings than one more win. And, chances are that if Sabathia played another game he would have won it, so that one extra win probably didn't mean a whole lot when it came to voting. At least in my opinion.
    I don't disagree, its just that in the past, voters have often looked at wins more than anything else as their criteria for their selection...and sometimes an undeserving winner has resulted *coughBarryZito2002cough*.
    Either guy was deserving this year.
    This weekend we rock Portland
  • AstroFanAstroFan Posts: 193
    Solat13 wrote:
    That's interesting reasoning because Sabathia started 4 more games than Beckett and won one less. Wouldn't the better argument be that had Beckett started 4 more games - the same as Sabathia - that he would won 2 or 3 more games?

    The best arguement of them all would be that individual wins for a pitcher should be nearly irrelevant for an award like this, especially when the difference is only one win.
  • Get_RightGet_Right Posts: 12,810
    sabitha carried that team for awhile
    without him they would have never made the playoffs

    The same cannot be said for beckett, who was a big part of a very good team

    perhaps thats the difference.
  • PoncierPoncier Posts: 16,678
    Get_Right wrote:
    sabitha carried that team for awhile
    without him they would have never made the playoffs

    The same cannot be said for beckett, who was a big part of a very good team

    perhaps thats the difference.
    How many games did Cle win the central by?
    How many did Boston win the East by?

    Your argument is a tad flawed.
    This weekend we rock Portland
  • rearviewmirorrearviewmiror Posts: 894
    Sabathia deserved the award, he had a better year.

    I know who I want pitching for my team though. beckett absolutely dominated against other cy candidates at the end of the year and post season. Yankees (Wang) Angels (Lackey) Indians (Sabathia)
    9/7/98, 8/3/00, 9/4/00, 4/15/03, 7/1/03, 9/28/04, 9/29/04, 5/24/06, 5/25/06, 6/17/08, 6/22/08, 6/28/08, 6/30/08, 5/17/10, 10/15/13, 10/16/13.
  • Solat13Solat13 Posts: 6,996
    AstroFan wrote:
    The best arguement of them all would be that individual wins for a pitcher should be nearly irrelevant for an award like this, especially when the difference is only one win.

    I agree, but was commenting on the fact the previous poster said that if Sabathia had another start he would have gotten a win and pointed out that he actually had 4 more starts and couldn't get that win.
    - Busted down the pretext
    - 8/28/98
    - 9/2/00
    - 4/28/03, 5/3/03, 7/3/03, 7/5/03, 7/6/03, 7/9/03, 7/11/03, 7/12/03, 7/14/03
    - 9/28/04, 9/29/04, 10/1/04, 10/2/04
    - 9/11/05, 9/12/05, 9/13/05, 9/30/05, 10/1/05, 10/3/05
    - 5/12/06, 5/13/06, 5/27/06, 5/28/06, 5/30/06, 6/1/06, 6/3/06, 6/23/06, 7/22/06, 7/23/06, 12/2/06, 12/9/06
    - 8/2/07, 8/5/07
    - 6/19/08, 6/20/08, 6/22/08, 6/24/08, 6/25/08, 6/27/08, 6/28/08, 6/30/08, 7/1/08
    - 8/23/09, 8/24/09, 9/21/09, 9/22/09, 10/27/09, 10/28/09, 10/30/09, 10/31/09
    - 5/15/10, 5/17/10, 5/18/10, 5/20/10, 5/21/10, 10/23/10, 10/24/10
    - 9/11/11, 9/12/11
    - 10/18/13, 10/21/13, 10/22/13, 11/30/13, 12/4/13
  • Get_RightGet_Right Posts: 12,810
    Poncier wrote:
    How many games did Cle win the central by?
    How many did Boston win the East by?

    Your argument is a tad flawed.


    PERHAPS-

    Im sure there is some stat somewhere supporting the choice
    earned runs, margin of victory, hits/runs per inning something like that, complete games, number of times the pitcher left the game with a lead and the overall margins

    I am not sure, but I think that Sabitha totally dominated more games than Beckett, even though Beckett won more games.

    what does the number of team wins have to do with the individual award?
  • AstroFanAstroFan Posts: 193
    Solat13 wrote:
    I agree, but was commenting on the fact the previous poster said that if Sabathia had another start he would have gotten a win and pointed out that he actually had 4 more starts and couldn't get that win.

    Yeah I wasn't trying to call you out or anything, just using your "better arguement" line for my own purposes :p
  • rearviewmirorrearviewmiror Posts: 894
    Get_Right wrote:
    PERHAPS-

    Im sure there is some stat somewhere supporting the choice
    earned runs, margin of victory, hits/runs per inning something like that, complete games, number of times the pitcher left the game with a lead and the overall margins

    I am not sure, but I think that Sabitha totally dominated more games than Beckett, even though Beckett won more games.

    what does the number of team wins have to do with the individual award?
    Beckett won more games in less chances against better teams. Sabathia deserves the award, but just not by as wide a margin as people think.
    9/7/98, 8/3/00, 9/4/00, 4/15/03, 7/1/03, 9/28/04, 9/29/04, 5/24/06, 5/25/06, 6/17/08, 6/22/08, 6/28/08, 6/30/08, 5/17/10, 10/15/13, 10/16/13.
  • Get_RightGet_Right Posts: 12,810
    rearviewmiror wrote:
    Beckett won more games in less chances against better teams. Sabathia deserves the award, but just not by as wide a margin as people think.
    yes but he also had two, maybe three of the top ten hitters behind him.

    AND FYI Im a red sox fan!
  • rearviewmirorrearviewmiror Posts: 894
    Get_Right wrote:
    AND FYI Im a red sox fan!
    Ah, the irony. I was hoping Josh would win it, I just thought that Sabathia deserved it for being such a horse.
    9/7/98, 8/3/00, 9/4/00, 4/15/03, 7/1/03, 9/28/04, 9/29/04, 5/24/06, 5/25/06, 6/17/08, 6/22/08, 6/28/08, 6/30/08, 5/17/10, 10/15/13, 10/16/13.
  • StellyStelly Posts: 170
    Sabathia had more Ks, more innings pitched, and a better ERA.

    I'll take all that over one less win.
    8/22/98 - Toronto
    8/26/98 - Cleveland
    10/7/00 - Detroit
    4/25/03 - Cleveland
    6/23/06 - Pittsburgh
  • drew0drew0 Posts: 943
    Solat13 wrote:
    That's interesting reasoning because Sabathia started 4 more games than Beckett and won one less. Wouldn't the better argument be that had Beckett started 4 more games - the same as Sabathia - that he would won 2 or 3 more games?

    Eh, sorry - forgot to look at the losses. Probably should have. I can say, off the top of my head, that two of those losses that Sabathia had should have been wins in his column, but they were losses due to the offense being unable to hit. I forget the games, but I remember that one or two instances where Sabathia dominated, but the offense being completely unable to produce cost C.C. the win.

    Post-season, I'd want Beckett as my starting pitcher. However, regular season, it's virtually a tie. I can't see any argument being valid if they argued that one was better than the other - they both deserved that award.
    Pittsburgh 6/23/06
    Madison Square Garden 6/25/08
  • Get_RightGet_Right Posts: 12,810
    Stelly wrote:
    Sabathia had more Ks, more innings pitched, and a better ERA.

    I'll take all that over one less win.

    thats what Im getting at
    he was more dominant than beckett
  • Solat13Solat13 Posts: 6,996
    Here's Gammons take on the Cy:

    Ring is next on C.C.'s list

    While C. C. Sabathia earned the Cy Young, Josh Beckett earned his place alongside Johan Santana as the best pitcher in baseball.

    One of the reasons Beckett was good and reliable and fresh in October -- taking the role of a No. 1 starter, carrying his team through three straight series and winning a world championship for the second time in five years -- is because he didn't have to do what Sabathia did in the regular season. And the award is based solely on the regular season. Sabathia threw 40 more innings, faced 143 more batters and threw 478 more pitches than Beckett. He picked up the slack with Jake Westbrook disabled, and Cliff Lee and Jeremy Sowers back in Buffalo, and deserves top 10 MVP votes for getting the Indians to a tie with the Red Sox for best record in baseball. But all those innings, batters and pitches showed in October. Velocity is never an indicator of wear or injury -- command is. And the man with the 5.24 to 1 strikeout to walk ratio was clearly gassed trying to deal with the hitting approach of Boston's hitters.

    Beckett won one more game (20-19), but C.C. had the better ERA (3.21 to 3.27), threw more innings, had more quality starts (25-20), had the higher quality-start percentage (74 percent-67 percent) and had 1.05 runs per start less support. But as C.C. will tell you, he'll gladly trade the award next year for what Beckett has won twice this century -- a World Series ring.

    The Red Sox are already looking at 2008 in terms of needing seven starting pitchers over the seven-month season (including October), but the Indians should be much deeper, too. They have Fausto Carmona, Westbrook, Paul Byrd, the impressive Aaron Laffey, Lee and Sowers (who was second in the AL in ERA in the second half of 2006), giving Eric Wedge the flexibility to trim the innings for Carmona and Sabathia.

    Sabathia has worked diligently to earn this Cy Young, and a rare place in the game's hierarchy. He paid for that diligence and durability in October, and now has something else to shoot for -- Beckett's crown as the premier money pitcher in the sport. The Red Sox's ace is a 6-0, 1.73 ERA in 10 career playoff appearances (72 2/3 IP), and only Curt Schilling has more World Series rings in the 21st century. Between them, Schilling and Beckett are 16-1 in the postseason this decade, and their teams have won nine of the ten series in which they've pitched.
    - Busted down the pretext
    - 8/28/98
    - 9/2/00
    - 4/28/03, 5/3/03, 7/3/03, 7/5/03, 7/6/03, 7/9/03, 7/11/03, 7/12/03, 7/14/03
    - 9/28/04, 9/29/04, 10/1/04, 10/2/04
    - 9/11/05, 9/12/05, 9/13/05, 9/30/05, 10/1/05, 10/3/05
    - 5/12/06, 5/13/06, 5/27/06, 5/28/06, 5/30/06, 6/1/06, 6/3/06, 6/23/06, 7/22/06, 7/23/06, 12/2/06, 12/9/06
    - 8/2/07, 8/5/07
    - 6/19/08, 6/20/08, 6/22/08, 6/24/08, 6/25/08, 6/27/08, 6/28/08, 6/30/08, 7/1/08
    - 8/23/09, 8/24/09, 9/21/09, 9/22/09, 10/27/09, 10/28/09, 10/30/09, 10/31/09
    - 5/15/10, 5/17/10, 5/18/10, 5/20/10, 5/21/10, 10/23/10, 10/24/10
    - 9/11/11, 9/12/11
    - 10/18/13, 10/21/13, 10/22/13, 11/30/13, 12/4/13
  • nothingman44nothingman44 Posts: 1,495
    beckett got hosed.

    but whatever, i'll take a dominating beckett and a world series championship for the red sox over a cy young award. nobody should care that CC won, because everyone knows who the more "clutch" pitcher was based soley on this past october performance by beckett.
  • StellyStelly Posts: 170
    I think Boston fans are so used to complaining (pre-Red Sox Championships) about something, they feel the need to feel slighted here as well. They complained for 80+ years, and aren't used to having nothing to complain about! :D

    Seriously, though, the only people who seemed POd about it are in Boston. The rest of the world seems to think Sabathia deserved it.
    8/22/98 - Toronto
    8/26/98 - Cleveland
    10/7/00 - Detroit
    4/25/03 - Cleveland
    6/23/06 - Pittsburgh
  • PoncierPoncier Posts: 16,678
    Stelly wrote:
    I think Boston fans are so used to complaining (pre-Red Sox Championships) about something, they feel the need to feel slighted here as well. They complained for 80+ years, and aren't used to having nothing to complain about! :D

    Seriously, though, the only people who seemed POd about it are in Boston. The rest of the world seems to think Sabathia deserved it.
    For me, I'm by no means P.O.'ed...as I stated both are deserving...I just thought based on past votes that the 20 win mark would put Beckett over the top. CC had better overall stats, but it was quite close...but voters in the past have rewarded wins (2002, Zito's 23-5 over Pedro's 20-4 while Pedro dominated the other categories, including an ERA a half run lower than Zito's).I actually think they got it right, just should have been a closer point margin.
    This weekend we rock Portland
  • PoncierPoncier Posts: 16,678
    Get_Right wrote:

    what does the number of team wins have to do with the individual award?
    Not sure where this question comes from...especially since the Sox and Indians finished with identical records.

    I pointed out that the Sox had a tighter division race, prevailing by 2 games over the Yanks while Cle finished 8 ahead of the Tiggers after you stated:
    Get_Right wrote:
    sabitha carried that team for awhile
    without him they would have never made the playoffs

    The same cannot be said for beckett, who was a big part of a very good team

    perhaps thats the difference.
    Just to point out that contrary to what you said, the Sox don't make the playoffs without Beckett.
    This weekend we rock Portland
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