Science of Morality, Anyone?
coberst
Posts: 9
Science of Morality, Anyone?
Where, in American culture, is the domain of knowledge that we would identify as morality studied and taught?
I suspect that if we do not quickly develop a science of morality that will make it possible for us to live together on this planet in a more harmonious manner our technology will help us to destroy the species and perhaps the planet soon.
It seems to me that we have given the subject matter of morality primarily over to religion. It also seems to me that if we ask the question ‘why do humans treat one another so terribly?’ we will find the answer in this moral aspect of human culture.
The ‘man of maxims’ “is the popular representative of the minds that are guided in their moral judgment solely by general rules, thinking that these will lead them to justice by a ready-made patent method, without the trouble of exerting patience, discrimination, impartiality—without any care to assure themselves whether they have the insight that comes from a hardly-earned estimate of temptation, or from a life vivid and intense enough to have created a wide fellow-feeling with all that is human.” George Eliot The Mill on the Floss
We can no longer leave this important matter in the hands of the Sunday-school. Morality must become a top priority for scientific study.
Where, in American culture, is the domain of knowledge that we would identify as morality studied and taught?
I suspect that if we do not quickly develop a science of morality that will make it possible for us to live together on this planet in a more harmonious manner our technology will help us to destroy the species and perhaps the planet soon.
It seems to me that we have given the subject matter of morality primarily over to religion. It also seems to me that if we ask the question ‘why do humans treat one another so terribly?’ we will find the answer in this moral aspect of human culture.
The ‘man of maxims’ “is the popular representative of the minds that are guided in their moral judgment solely by general rules, thinking that these will lead them to justice by a ready-made patent method, without the trouble of exerting patience, discrimination, impartiality—without any care to assure themselves whether they have the insight that comes from a hardly-earned estimate of temptation, or from a life vivid and intense enough to have created a wide fellow-feeling with all that is human.” George Eliot The Mill on the Floss
We can no longer leave this important matter in the hands of the Sunday-school. Morality must become a top priority for scientific study.
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Religion preaches nothing but ignorance, contempt, hatred, and bigotry. Religion is also viewed by many people worldwide to be a doctrine of sorts of morals. It's fucking ridiculous and if you need a god or a book to tell you what's right and wrong, you're a fucking psychopath.
to the OP, perhaps this post is an example of why people can't live together in harmony. We live in an age of moral relativism where there's an attitude of, if I don't like it, then I don't have to tolerate it. As this post exhibits, people think it's ok to even spew hatred for things they don't agree with. Until people who are religious, areligious, secularists, etc... can learn to respect other views, all the scientific scholarship in the world won't mean a damn thing.
That being said, I perhaps should've worded my sentiments better.
There are many religious people out there who are good, honest people. But, the religions themselves are full of corruption and sickness.
However, religion, like politics, will prompt someone to turn on someone else, even a loved one, at the drop of a hat. I've seen siblings stop talking altogether because of something as stupid as religion.
Would you choose Jesus over your brother? Would you blow up a bus or an office in the name of an invisible man? Would you kill someone for not agreeing with your book of fairytales?
How many people call Obama a "monkey?" How many people hate Obama a "raghead?" It's fucking retarded. It comes from fear and it's predominately these born-again Christian nuts and uneducated Creationists.
I said, "Statistically speaking, the dividing line between those against and those for it is usually a college degree, with those who have college degrees being against."
She goes, "My church has a member who is a school teacher, and she teaches us how to tell when we should use spanking as a punishment. The bible doesn't say that spanking is wrong."
I go, "The bible was written about 2000 years ago, right?"
She's like, "Yeah."
I said, "2000 years ago, what did anybody really know about child psychology?"
And that's why, in my opinion, modern psychology is in fact the closest thing we have to a scientific approach to understanding morality.
That's because morality is simply our ability to tap into what makes us human beings, and psychology is literally the subject self-discovery. Self-knowledge has done more for the advancement of moral decision making than any other system of thought.
Point in fact is that if we did not possess the ability to understand our own intentions, it would be impossible for us define right and wrong.
Without lies, there cannot be immorality. There is no such thing as immorality based in truth.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
I was driving by a local church the other day and I saw this gem:
"The Truth Is! Lies have to be invented!"
I immediately chuckled and thought "oh, the irony."
"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it." (Matthew 10:34-39 )
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple." Luke 14:26
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Yes, the Bible is retarded.
lmao. when in doubt, read the bible.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
I am studying "The Sense of Beauty" by George Santayana, "Moral Imagination" by Mark Johnson, and "Art and Visual Perception" by Rudolf Arnheim. I have discovered that the study of values, morality is a species of value, has led me into a study of visual perception, the meaning of 'meaning', and the science of art.
The study of psychology and cognitive science has provided a foundation for this effort. I think that such studies must form the foundation of such an effort.
hate is better (correctly) translated as love less. You can and SHOULD have great love for your family, but it should be less than you love God.
How bout the greatest commandement in the bible...love the lord your god with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself...i don't think those are unreasonable commands
hmm tolerate. what exactly is this word telling us to do?
i am a racist bastard but because the law says i can not express my deep hatred of certain people, i shall keep all my hatred inside my body and seethe until i die.
why do we have crimes specifically labelled hate crimes? why is it(or is it?) worse to murder or beat someone up because they are gay or Black? shouldnt the crime of murder itself be the ultimate disgrace?
any one who believes in a God and yet condones war or capital punishment is a hypocrite. and not a true person of faith.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Science is and can be nothing more than a form of worship.
To have this so-called selfknowledge means nothing without the action behind it.Becomes nothing more than a theory.
And I believe an untested theory to be just a mindfuck.
right and wrong, While holding some basic commonality between peoples is entirely subjective.
Whats right for me could very well be wrong for you.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
I think it's taught in philosophy. But the study of philosophy is not valued in this country because it's not a money-making endeavor.
plus all that thinking hurts your brain.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I have to admit I find the bible contradictory. Some good stuff, though some of it is not to be taken literally. There is a certain amount of allegory and deeper thinking needed in understanding.
God didn't write it. Jesus didn't write it. Man wrote it and rewrote it and rewrote it and then it was translated and translated ... don't fully trust it, and those who take it literally.
I do not mean to be disrespectful or argumentative just sharing a point of view.
Are you really deeply racist? I think just about everybody is racist to some extent. Those who believe they aren't are just lying to themselves.
But, deeply racist? In what ways?
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
Both of my parents have their college degree. When I was out of line I was spanked. I tend to stay out of trouble.
On the same token, your parents could've achieved the same end without resorting to violence. They chose the quick and dirty solution as opposed to one that would've utilized their communication and problem-solving skills.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
no i am not deeply racist. you quoted me out of context. i was questioning what the word tolerance actually means. tone is so difficult to convey on the internets.
i am not racist AT ALL. tis not that i believe i am not, tis that i KNOW i am not.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I recommend taking the implicit association test to see if you are truly that .00001% of the population that harbors no racist tendencies.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
i dont need to take a test to know what i am or arent. im misanthropic not racist.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I would say anyone who condones unjust war or unjust capital punishment would have a much harder time reconciling their faith. But that's just the problem, if you have a science of morality there has to be something that everyone agrees on to be the basis of society. Hammurabi, the bible, the torah, the new testament, the koran...you won't get universal agreement on a standard.
that's a fine point of view. And you're right, even for those who believe the bible, there is a way to study it and interpret each book...some ARE meant to be taken as allegory, others you must know the context or understand the situation of that time for it to make more sense and get some of the deeper meanings.
The hard part with your 2nd paragraph, is that the bible is said to be God breathed, or inspired by God. While he didn't physically write it, I believe that he was instrumental in it's writing.
Regardless if people agree with it 100%, there are (as you have mentioned) good things to take away from it. Just as other religious texts have some very good points to take away.
you can't prove that though; you can say it could've been different, but you won't ever be able to substantiate that circumstance.
On a side note, you have to find what works for the child. For me, it was a spanking...a timeout or talking to didnt work or make me feel remorse or want to change. a few quick swats really did the trick. For other kids a timeout may be the way to go. I see a lot of kids who's parents try the timeout approach and the reasoning approach and those kids own the parents and can do what they want.
I can understand where you are coming from on "the hard part with your 2nd paragraph ...". Yes, the bible is said to be God breathed, or inspired by God, this I do believe, feel and know in the deepest part of me is true ...
I have read parts of the bible and felt yeah I do understand this, and other parts where I feel in my gut hmmmmmmm, something is off, this doesn't equate, even after great deliberation.
That being said, it comes circular due to the variety of rewrites and interpretations. What is the level of understanding and intentions of the individual(s) interpreting the origin, the rewrites and on ... it all gets a bit hazy to me.
Thanks for your perspective and understanding. Greatly appreciated. : )
Resorting to violence? It's not like we duked it out in the basement Fight Club style.
is that religion
i have met someone who can apply laws of thermodynamics to scripture...peace
science, after all did arise after God..
a derivitive of nature.
nature is god
god is love
love is light
Nice soundbite...
Here is the Full Text of Matthew 10... read it and place your soundbite in its proper context:
He (Jesus) called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out evil[a] spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.
These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.
These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions:
"Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. As you go, preach this message: 'The kingdom of heaven is near.' Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy,drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. Do not take along any gold or silver or copper in your belts; take no bag for the journey, or extra tunic, or sandals or a staff; for the worker is worth his keep.
"Whatever town or village you enter, search for some worthy person there and stay at his house until you leave. As you enter the home, give it your greeting. If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town. I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.
"Be on your guard against men; they will hand you over to the local councils and flog you in their synagogues. On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.
"Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
"A student is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master. It is enough for the student to be like his teacher, and the servant like his master. If the head of the house has been called Beelzebub, how much more the members of his household!
"So do not be afraid of them. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs. Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. So don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.
"Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her motherinlaw— a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'
"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
"He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives the one who sent me. Anyone who receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet's reward, and anyone who receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man will receive a righteous man's reward. And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones because he is my disciple, I tell you the truth, he will certainly not lose his reward."
"After Jesus had finished instructing his twelve disciples, he went on from there to teach and preach in the towns of Galilee.
...
There... it becomes much clearer on what Jesus meant, don't it?
Hail, Hail!!!
That might be, but the question was; "Would you choose Jesus over your brother?"
And the answer is; of course, Jesus demands it of every good christian.
I've asked this question to one of the religious folks on this board (might have been you even), if someone held a gun to your children's heads and asked you to deny god otherwise he'd shoot your children, would you do it? The answer was "I would not deny my god."
To me, that's almost murder. What good is love your neighbour, then? What does "love your neighbour" mean when you're in a position to save 50 kids if you deny your god, but you can't because of his rules.
Now, I thought this all-forgiving, wise god would see that by denying god you are saving children and not really denying him. He'd see inside your heart that you love him, and you love the children as well. I guess it makes sense now, he doesn't like to share your love.
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Actually, yes. It still means exactly the same. Although, I don't know what he meant with "raise the dead".
"... it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town. "
Always nice to hear as an atheist who doesn't accept Jesus and god.
"But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven. "
See my other post. And again, thanks Jesus! See you when you send me to hell to suffer for all eternity!
You can choose to interpret the bible loosely and see a veiled message in it, but then you should be consistent and perhaps realise that when a man is ready to put a bullet to your child's head that the rules aren't as strict and that god's word is more like god's vague, not accurate or perfect guideline...
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