Libertarians

not for me?not for me? Posts: 501
edited August 2008 in A Moving Train
I'm sick of the two party system. I'm sick of just McCain and Obama. I don't really like either of them at all. Obama being inexperienced and not discussing the issues, and McCain looking more and more like Bush II. I've been looking into the Libertarian party recently and I am liking what I'm seeing. Less government that lets people make choices for themselves. Going back to the constitution. I get a conservative view it at home, now I'm looking for the a more liberal view of it. This will be my first time voting and I really want to make a well informed choice. Please help me out. Tell me your opinions of the party.

Nathan
Nathan
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • MattyJoeMattyJoe Posts: 1,424
    Libertarian is actually the only belief system that coincides perfectly with what this country is all about, at least according to our Constitution. It's a perfectly harmonious system.

    Do whatever you want, as long as it does not infringe upon the rights of another person or group of people. These rights being the ones laid out by our Bill Of Rights.
    I pledge to you a government that will not only work well, but wisely, its ability to act tempered by prudence, and its willingness to do good, balanced by the knowledge that government is never more dangerous than when our desire to have it help us blinds us to its great power to harm us.
    -Reagan
  • I can't support it as I don't believe in minimalist government. The current form of government isn't right, but a minimalist government isn't either IMO.

    It's not longer a world of independent and separate countries where a nation of loosely tied states can thrive or even survive. It's a connected and interdependent world and this will only grow stronger as we go forward. It takes a strong, federal government to lead the US in the global world.

    Even at home, the government needs to be there for the people as Obama said tonight. It shouldn't be against the people as it has been so often in the past, but the federal government plays crucial roles.

    Crucial roles in maintaining standards of education (which it's done poorly at in recent times).

    In helping unfortunate citizens get back on their feet, to protect individual rights especially those of minority groups who states may choose to oppress.

    To protect national security.

    To fund and encourage research in every area--healthy, alternative fuel, biology, social sciences, crime prevention, space exploration etc. Stuff that's not necessarily related to profit and thus won't get funded by private companies in a capitalist society.

    Etc. Etc.

    So in short the libertarian party is damn far from my personal views on what the government should do. Even further away than the republican party.
    2000: Pittsburgh
    2006: Camden I & II, DC
    2008: DC, Ed DC II
  • We can still have a strong government, even if they don't take half of my $7 an hour and give it to the trailer trash down the street who refuse to work. The government just needs to let people make more decisions and not be in control with everything.
    Nathan
  • wolfbearwolfbear Posts: 3,965
    I've always agreed with the Libertarian standpoint. The problem is with the two party system, they never have a chance. :)
    "I'd rather be with an animal." "Those that can be trusted can change their mind." "The in between is mine." "If I don't lose control, explore and not explode, a preternatural other plane with the power to maintain." "Yeh this is living." "Life is what you make it."
  • We can still have a strong government, even if they don't take half of my $7 an hour and give it to the trailer trash down the street who refuse to work. The government just needs to let people make more decisions and not be in control with everything.

    I'd agree, but libertarian goes to far to that extreme IMO.

    Obama's plans match mine the closest of any candidate in the elections I've been old enough to vote in (1996 was the first). I notice you say he talks a lot about change but doesn't outline details of his plans. This is true of his speeches, but his plans are outlined in great detail on his website:

    http://www.barackobama.com/issues/

    You can look issue by issue there as well as download a pdf file of his blue print for America and get a lot of details on his plan and see whether or not you agree with him.

    I won't try to sway you, but I encourage you to read up on that, and check McCain's site as well and see where they really stand rather than relying on speeches which are aimed at the regular voters who pay little attention to details and just vote on rhetoric and hot button issues.

    Then do the same for the libertarian party and see where you stand. Don't listen to me or others on here who have already formed our opinions. Do independent research and come to your own beliefs. Forming political beliefs should be a deeply personal and introspective process. Not one based on the opinions of biased others who just want to convert you to their side.
    2000: Pittsburgh
    2006: Camden I & II, DC
    2008: DC, Ed DC II
  • Maybe if everyone who actually agreed with it voted, it would gain ground and maybe become a major party.
    Nathan
  • jeffbrjeffbr Seattle Posts: 7,177
    I am absolutely a libertarian, and have no trust in a large, centralized government which can only function through force and coercion.

    Unfortnately, this time around Bob Barr is running as the Libertarian Party candidate. Yes, the Bob Barr who as a recent Republican was OK with the Patriot Act, the war on drugs, etc... He has denounced those things now, but I'm afraid he's just being an opportunist. So this time around None of the Above gets my vote for Pres. Usually that vote goes to the Libertarian candidate.

    And not for me?, if you think you lean libertarian, there is no way you could vote for either of the major party candidates. They both promote the use of force, and neither speaks of liberty. They only talk about how to grow the government to do more.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • jeffbr wrote:
    I am absolutely a libertarian, and have no trust in a large, centralized government which can only function through force and coercion.

    Unfortnately, this time around Bob Barr is running as the Libertarian Party candidate. Yes, the Bob Barr who as a recent Republican was OK with the Patriot Act, the war on drugs, etc... He has denounced those things now, but I'm afraid he's just being an opportunist. So this time around None of the Above gets my vote for Pres. Usually that vote goes to the Libertarian candidate.

    And not for me?, if you think you lean libertarian, there is no way you could vote for either of the major party candidates. They both promote the use of force, and neither speaks of liberty. They only talk about how to grow the government to do more.

    I wasn't going to vote, until I started getting interested in the LP(I was thinking of voting American Independent also). Barr has admitted his mistakes though, which I respect. He doesn't just pretend like he never did it.
    Nathan
  • jeffbrjeffbr Seattle Posts: 7,177
    I wasn't going to vote, until I started getting interested in the LP(I was thinking of voting American Independent also). Barr has admitted his mistakes though, which I respect. He doesn't just pretend like he never did it.

    True, and I hope he is sincere. At any rate, even if I abstain from voting for President this time around (or write myself in), I will still vote in local and state races, and attempt to elect Libertarians where I can.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • unsungunsung I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
    jeffbr wrote:
    I am absolutely a libertarian, and have no trust in a large, centralized government which can only function through force and coercion.

    Unfortnately, this time around Bob Barr is running as the Libertarian Party candidate. Yes, the Bob Barr who as a recent Republican was OK with the Patriot Act, the war on drugs, etc... He has denounced those things now, but I'm afraid he's just being an opportunist. So this time around None of the Above gets my vote for Pres. Usually that vote goes to the Libertarian candidate.

    And not for me?, if you think you lean libertarian, there is no way you could vote for either of the major party candidates. They both promote the use of force, and neither speaks of liberty. They only talk about how to grow the government to do more.



    I feel the exact same way.

    Except for those Code Pink morons. Batons are too good for them.
  • LikeAnOceanLikeAnOcean Posts: 7,718
    I don't associate myself with any group in particular, but I guess if I was to be classified, Libertarian would be the closest to my ideals.. I'm somewhere between a Libertarian, Liberal and centrist on the spectrum.
  • ryan198ryan198 Posts: 1,015
    Libertarianism is as close to economic canibalism as one can get, but in America we find it strangely fascinating...funny how Scandanavian countries have the highest standard of living, they have an income ceiling (500k is easily enough to live off), give two/one year off to raise newborns (family values?) to the mom and dad, have little crime, little welfare abuse (they make those on welfare or criminals work on cleaning the streets), and never get into wars. On the other hand doesn't extreme individualistic competition breed contempt? power struggle? libertarianism is not the way.
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    I agree with a lot of the beliefs of Libertarianism, but don't think they give enough liberties to unborn children so I could never vote that way.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • Pacomc79Pacomc79 Posts: 9,404
    I'm pretty moderate. I don't like the extreme elements of the libertarian party but I don't like the extreme elements of most if not all parties.

    I identify most with the lp and generally vote that way when possible.

    I like thier stances on liberty and freedom and personal decision making as well as small protectorate national government. Though I'm ok with fairly powerful local and state government provided it's efficient and well run. I'm essentially a big fan of actual free markets (though they rarely exist anymore) and efficiency and essentially decriminalizing any morality based law.


    Having a libertarian viewpoint typically means you do not subscribe to the notion that a nations wealth is of one collective to be distributed by government. "From Each according to their means to each according to thier needs." If you will. I tend to belive this works fine in very small collective communities and absolutely dreadful in large economies (far too small a group in charge of far too much responsibility and this is also typically the case with too much corporte conglomeration without good oversite which also leads to corruption) If you do think of wealth belonging to an entire collective that is distributed by government equally to everyone you're probably not going to like the LP.

    There is no perfect governmental system for everyone. The grass is always greener elsewhere and honestly facts and figures are skewed by everyone to meet thier particular ideal.
    My Girlfriend said to me..."How many guitars do you need?" and I replied...."How many pairs of shoes do you need?" She got really quiet.
  • ryan198ryan198 Posts: 1,015
    Pacomc79 wrote:
    I'm pretty moderate. I don't like the extreme elements of the libertarian party but I don't like the extreme elements of most if not all parties.

    I identify most with the lp and generally vote that way when possible.

    I like thier stances on liberty and freedom and personal decision making as well as small protectorate national government. Though I'm ok with fairly powerful local and state government provided it's efficient and well run. I'm essentially a big fan of actual free markets (though they rarely exist anymore) and efficiency and essentially decriminalizing any morality based law.


    Having a libertarian viewpoint typically means you do not subscribe to the notion that a nations wealth is of one collective to be distributed by government. "From Each according to their means to each according to thier needs." If you will. I tend to belive this works fine in very small collective communities and absolutely dreadful in large economies (far too small a group in charge of far too much responsibility and this is also typically the case with too much corporte conglomeration without good oversite which also leads to corruption) If you do think of wealth belonging to an entire collective that is distributed by government equally to everyone you're probably not going to like the LP.

    There is no perfect governmental system for everyone. The grass is always greener elsewhere and honestly facts and figures are skewed by everyone to meet thier particular ideal.
    Nice post, though I disagree a bit. Moral freedom is the compelling part of libertarianism that works for me (which is how they get on the side of liberals), and the idea of the free market (which is how they get on the side of conservatives) is compelling given that we've had its supposed greatness shoved down our throats since we were born.

    I just can't get over the fact that 'free' (of course nothing has ever been completely free) market capitalism has never worked anywhere that doesn't have the biggest guns. In fact, the place that took up most of Ron Paul's (or the Libertarian) stance, Argentina, had a dollar that was worth $1-1 with America for a time then it absolutely collapsed (sound familiar) to being worthless. Chile, likewise, look at New Zealand in the 80's, Russia in the 90s, Japan in the 90s, and so on have all taken massive hits. The difference is we can artificially prop the market up with wars.

    Anyway if you look around at the most successful governments, and countries they take on some market based ideas, but are also strong socialist national governments (Canada, Iceland, Sweden, Norway, and so on). In the end I think what is always market capitalism's downfall is what Karl Marx pointed out in the mid-1800s, whereby any system which operates solely on the exploitation of labor (that's how profit is made) will result in alienation and ultimately revolt. Of course this has happened everywhere but in the totalitarian government of the United States.
  • Pacomc79Pacomc79 Posts: 9,404
    some good points Ryan. Most governments are a blend of socialist and capitalist ideas at this point and there definately isn't a truely free market anymore if ever even if I like the idea. One downfall of capitalism is unbridled personal ambition and or the lack of any personal ambition, though both could also be a down fall of socialism as well. I guess I'd also say any system requires having a good conscience and that can depend on upbringing. I do like a lot of what goes on in Europe. Especially when it comes to public transportation. I've never lived there so I don't really know most of the everyday issues they have like I do in the US. The food is better though, a lot more local... a lot more fresh.

    I worry about the elimination of freedoms choices and personal economic freedom under a more socialist system.

    I like an environment where small buisnesses can thrive and serve the public needs and an enviroment that encourages invention and meeting the needs of a market. I'm not sure that is always the case when people are under a prohibitive tax structure. I think they take less chances.

    One other cool thing about Europe is the culture. The US is a blend of so many cultures though box stores and franchises leave many basic cities looking very similar... it does make goods cheaper by using economies of scale, but the uniqueness and character gets lost in translation.
    My Girlfriend said to me..."How many guitars do you need?" and I replied...."How many pairs of shoes do you need?" She got really quiet.
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