Home› A Moving Train

Should US Troops Patrol US Streets?

g under pg under p Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,200
edited October 2008 in A Moving Train
In a barely noticed development, a US Army unit is now training for domestic
operations under the control of US Army North, the Army service component of
Northern Command. An initial news report in the Army Times newspaper last month
noted that in addition to emergency response the force "may be called upon to
help with civil unrest and crowd control." The military has since claimed the
force will not be used for civil unrest, but questions remain. We speak to Army
Col. Michael Boatner, future operations division chief of USNORTHCOM, and
Matthew Rothschild, editor of The Progressive magazine.

Listen/Watch/Read
* Is Posse Comitatus Dead? US Troops on US Streets *


Should they be in our streets and why are they coming so close to the election? I certainly don't want any troops in our streets just coming back from Iraq with possible PTSD. Give this video stream a look.

Peace
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti

*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti

*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)


Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • Strangest TribeStrangest Tribe Posts: 2,502
    g under p wrote:
    Listen/Watch/Read
    * Is Posse Comitatus Dead? US Troops on US Streets *


    Should they be in our streets and why are they coming so close to the election? I certainly don't want any troops in our streets just coming back from Iraq with possible PTSD. Give this video stream a look.

    Peace

    We are living in historic times. I hope we survive.
    the Minions
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    I'd rather have uniformed U.S. Troops and cops on the streets than rioters and looters.
    U.S. Troops are... U.S. citizens. We're on the same side... as lonfg as we don't riot and loot.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • g under pg under p Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,200
    Strangest Tribe wrote:
    We are living in historic times. I hope we survive.

    Democracy Now wrote:
    MATTHEW ROTHSCHILD: Well, you know, that doesn’t really satisfy me, and I don’t think it should satisfy your listeners and your audience, Amy, because, you know, our people in the field in Iraq, some of them have not behaved up to the highest standards, and a lot of police forces in the United States who have been using these tasers have used them inappropriately.


    The whole question here about what the Pentagon is doing patrolling in the United States gets to the real heart of the matter, which is, do we have a democracy here? I mean, there is a law on the books called the Posse Comitatus Act and the Insurrection Act that says that the president of the United States, as commander-in-chief, cannot put the military on our streets. And this is a violation of that, it seems to me.


    President Bush tried to get around this act a couple years ago in the Defense Authorization Act that he signed that got rid of some of those restrictions, and then last year, in the new Defense Authorization Act, thanks to the work of Senator Patrick Leahy and Kit Bond of Missouri, that was stripped away. And so, the President isn’t supposed to be using the military in this fashion, and though the President, true to form, appended a signing statement to that saying he’s not going to be governed by that. So, here we have a situation where the President of United States has been aggrandizing his power, and this gives him a whole brigade unit to use against US citizens here at home.


    AMY GOODMAN: Colonel Michael Boatner, what about the Posse Comitatus Act, and where does that fit in when US troops are deployed on US soil?


    COL. MICHAEL BOATNER: It absolutely governs in every instance. We are not allowed to help enforce the law. We don’t do that. Every time we get a request—and again, this kind of a deployment is defense support to civil authority under the National Response Framework and the Stafford Act. And we do it all the time, in response to hurricanes, floods, fires and things like that. But again, you know, if we review the requirement that comes to us from civil authority and it has any complexion of law enforcement whatsoever, it gets rejected and pushed back, because it’s not lawful.


    AMY GOODMAN: Matthew Rothschild, does this satisfy you, editor of The Progressive magazine?


    MATTHEW ROTHSCHILD: No, it doesn’t. One of the reasons it doesn’t is not by what Boatner was saying right there, but what President Bush has been doing. And if we looked at National Security Presidential Directive 51, that he signed on May 9th of 2007, Amy, this gives the President enormous powers to declare a catastrophic emergency and to bypass our regular system of laws, essentially, to impose a form of martial law.


    And if you look at that National Security Presidential Directive, what it says, that in any incident where there is extraordinary disruption of a whole range of things, including our economy, the President can declare a catastrophic emergency. Well, we’re having these huge disturbances in our economy. President Bush could today pick up that National Security Directive 51 and say, “We’re in a catastrophic emergency. I’m going to declare martial law, and I’m going to use this combat brigade to enforce it.”



    Times are a changing and ominous indeed, we certainly need something and a new direction for this country or a police state is coming. Coming with an order from the President any President.

    Peace
    *We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti

    *MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
    .....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti

    *The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)


  • the wolfthe wolf Posts: 7,027
    g under p wrote:
    Listen/Watch/Read
    * Is Posse Comitatus Dead? US Troops on US Streets *


    Should they be in our streets and why are they coming so close to the election? I certainly don't want any troops in our streets just coming back from Iraq with possible PTSD. Give this video stream a look.

    Peace

    watch out. you will get hosed just like i did for my "gun" thread. this is actually what i was reading when i posted my thread.

    i think its scary. but of course, over in my thread im a paranoid gun loving asshole. so what do i know.
    ive only been doing research on Martial Law for a book im writing for the past 6 months.
    Peace, Love.

    "To question your government is not unpatriotic --
    to not question your government is unpatriotic."
    -- Sen. Chuck Hagel
  • AnonAnon Posts: 11,175
    there going to need them down south if obama gets elected and all the rednecks go crazy. or crazier if that's possible.
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    the wolf wrote:
    watch out. you will get hosed just like i did for my "gun" thread. this is actually what i was reading when i posted my thread.

    i think its scary. but of course, over in my thread im a paranoid gun loving asshole. so what do i know.
    ive only been doing research on Martial Law for a book im writing for the past 6 months.
    ...
    Martial Law will only be imposed if anarchy reigns in the streets. And if anarchy and violence rules the streets of America... then, I... for one... would favor the enstatement of Martial Law to restore and maintain order.
    Remember, the soldiers in your Army are Americans... like you. They wil not be kicking down doors like they have to do in Sadr City, Iraq... unless we allow places like Kansas City degrade into Sadr City.
    It would be a completely different story if the soldiers came from the other side of the globe to impose the will of their government upon you. In that case, those soldiers will be here to defend you.
    Your soldiers are there to uphold the right of our Constitution... not to impose the will of an American Dictator.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • the wolfthe wolf Posts: 7,027
    Cosmo wrote:
    ...
    Martial Law will only be imposed if anarchy reigns in the streets. And if anarchy and violence rules the streets of America... then, I... for one... would favor the enstatement of Martial Law to restore and maintain order.
    Remember, the soldiers in your Army are Americans... like you. They wil not be kicking down doors like they have to do in Sadr City, Iraq... unless we allow places like Kansas City degrade into Sadr City.
    It would be a completely different story if the soldiers came from the other side of the globe to impose the will of their government upon you. In that case, those soldiers will be here to defend you.
    Your soldiers are there to uphold the right of our Constitution... not to impose the will of an American Dictator.

    this what im talking about. this is not the case anymore. the president of the united states of american can now declare on his/her own martial law for any reason they see fit. that is now in writing. that is somthing that has changed in the past 3 years, we have never , ever been in this sitiuation like this b4 where anything , could bring on martial law.
    Peace, Love.

    "To question your government is not unpatriotic --
    to not question your government is unpatriotic."
    -- Sen. Chuck Hagel
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    the wolf wrote:
    this what im talking about. this is not the case anymore. the president of the united states of american can now declare on his/her own martial law for any reason they see fit. that is now in writing. that is somthing that has changed in the past 3 years, we have never , ever been in this sitiuation like this b4 where anything , could bring on martial law.
    ...
    Then, doesn't that make it extremely important that we do NOT let a person like that gain control of the reins? We NEED to elect representatives that will CHANGE the legislation that gives one person in the White House to have such power. In the past 7 years, we have seen this occur... too much power given to one man(woman) seated in the Oval Office. This all needs to be brought back to where it is supposed to be... in the hands of the people who represent US... and return the power to where it belongs... the Checks and Balances that our founding Fathers were wise enough to place as the foundation of our nation.
    And I have faith in our military personel. They will not indiscriminantly shoot down American Citizens in the streets... just because the President orders them to do so. I also have faith in our people... and hope that they will not create a situation where Martial Law needs to be imposed because we go on a tear of destruction of what America is... and is supposed to be.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • the wolfthe wolf Posts: 7,027
    Cosmo wrote:
    ...
    Then, doesn't that make it extremely important that we do NOT let a person like that gain control of the reins? We NEED to elect representatives that will CHANGE the legislation that gives one person in the White House to have such power. In the past 7 years, we have seen this occur... too much power given to one man(woman) seated in the Oval Office. This all needs to be brought back to where it is supposed to be... in the hands of the people who represent US... and return the power to where it belongs... the Checks and Balances that our founding Fathers were wise enough to place as the foundation of our nation.
    And I have faith in our military personel. They will not indiscriminantly shoot down American Citizens in the streets... just because the President orders them to do so. I also have faith in our people... and hope that they will not create a situation where Martial Law needs to be imposed because we go on a tear of destruction of what America is... and is supposed to be.

    i hope your faith is well placed. im just not so sure anymore.

    im a indie, that leans toward dem. but man, they are all sounding the same to me anymore.
    we are getting into "uncharted territory" here i think.
    Peace, Love.

    "To question your government is not unpatriotic --
    to not question your government is unpatriotic."
    -- Sen. Chuck Hagel
  • Drowned OutDrowned Out Posts: 6,056
    Faith is taking the first step even when you don't see the whole staircase - MLK

    So the Army Times originally reports that the brigade will engage in crowd control and quelling civil disturbances...then the army denies it.
    The officer in that interview is on his heels, talking in circles the whole time. It is pointed out (twice) that a governor no longer has to request military 'assistance' for it to be 'provided' to them, and his response is, 'that's political, and not what I was asked to talk about'???? He tells us that unlawful requests for law enforcement assistance will be rejected, seeming to forget the door to door gun confiscations after Katrina...

    The US military oath puts the obligation and duty of the soldier first to the constitution, then the lawful orders of the president, then his superiors, and the uniform code of conduct.
    The problem is, when was the last time you heard of any mass refusal to obey an illegal or unconstitutional order? I don't share a faith that US soldiers will not follow orders, even when it comes to it's own people. If they're told certain people are a threat to the Homeland and should be neutralized, I think the soldiers will place their faith in their superiors. If the peoples' faith is in the soldiers, everyone is following uncontested (uncontestable?) orders.

    I'm not so much concerned about people getting shot (yet), as I am about the potential for controlling dissent. This makes it so much easier to crack down on protests....and if things continue on the economic path they're on (further globalization/amero), or if anything goes wrong during this election, there will be mass protests. Combine a handful of fringe radicals (domestic terrorists), or government provacateurs, with an army, and the right to assemble is dead. This is all so fucked up.
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    Drowned Out wrote:
    Faith is taking the first step even when you don't see the whole staircase - MLK

    So the Army Times originally reports that the brigade will engage in crowd control and quelling civil disturbances...then the army denies it.
    The officer in that interview is on his heels, talking in circles the whole time. It is pointed out (twice) that a governor no longer has to request military 'assistance' for it to be 'provided' to them, and his response is, 'that's political, and not what I was asked to talk about'???? He tells us that unlawful requests for law enforcement assistance will be rejected, seeming to forget the door to door gun confiscations after Katrina...

    The US military oath puts the obligation and duty of the soldier first to the constitution, then the lawful orders of the president, then his superiors, and the uniform code of conduct.
    The problem is, when was the last time you heard of any mass refusal to obey an illegal or unconstitutional order? I don't share a faith that US soldiers will not follow orders, even when it comes to it's own people. If they're told certain people are a threat to the Homeland and should be neutralized, I think the soldiers will place their faith in their superiors. If the peoples' faith is in the soldiers, everyone is following uncontested (uncontestable?) orders.

    I'm not so much concerned about people getting shot (yet), as I am about the potential for controlling dissent. This makes it so much easier to crack down on protests....and if things continue on the economic path they're on (further globalization/amero), or if anything goes wrong during this election, there will be mass protests. Combine a handful of fringe radicals (domestic terrorists), or government provacateurs, with an army, and the right to assemble is dead. This is all so fucked up.
    ...
    Those provisions have been repealed and restored Posse Comitatus Act of 1878.
    Sec. 1385. - Use of Army and Air Force as posse comitatus
    "Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army or the Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to execute the laws shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both."
    ...
    As for the last time I heard of mass refusal of illegal or unconstitutional orders... when was the last time Martial Law was declared in the U.S?
    A: During the American Civil War... which was a Civil War.
    Check out where most of the rumblings are coming from... militia and Christian paranoia websites.
    Read the full context of the bills (specifically the latest one that repeals the John Warner(R) Defense Authorization Act):
    http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c110:7:./temp/~c110onf5WL:e982221:
    Leave the authorization in the Congress... where debate can take place. NOT with the single whim of ONE man in the White House.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • AbuskedtiAbuskedti Posts: 1,917
    Cosmo wrote:
    ...
    Martial Law will only be imposed if anarchy reigns in the streets. And if anarchy and violence rules the streets of America... then, I... for one... would favor the enstatement of Martial Law to restore and maintain order.
    Remember, the soldiers in your Army are Americans... like you. They wil not be kicking down doors like they have to do in Sadr City, Iraq... unless we allow places like Kansas City degrade into Sadr City.
    It would be a completely different story if the soldiers came from the other side of the globe to impose the will of their government upon you. In that case, those soldiers will be here to defend you.
    Your soldiers are there to uphold the right of our Constitution... not to impose the will of an American Dictator.

    I agree. That is the kind of security we can usually depend upon. That is what is needed in Iraq as well. Instead we mock them for their actions. Our streets will deteriorate quickly if the economy fails, hundreds of thousands lose their jobs or retirements and we do not patrol the streets. We will quickly understand what we have put Iraq through these last 5 or so years.
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    Abuskedti wrote:
    I agree. That is the kind of security we can usually depend upon. That is what is needed in Iraq as well. Instead we mock them for their actions. Our streets will deteriorate quickly if the economy fails, hundreds of thousands lose their jobs or retirements and we do not patrol the streets. We will quickly understand what we have put Iraq through these last 5 or so years.
    ...
    Iraq is a fucking joke. Bush claims to have over 400,000 Iraqi troops in place. Add the 150,000 U.S. troops (total 550,000 troops) and the unknown number of Blackwater type mercenaries over there... how many fucking Iraqis does it take to 'Stand Up' their military so we can evacuate that place??? 400,000 isn't enough? How many do they need? 500,000? 800,000? What?
    ...
    Maybe some of the 'Surge is working' people here (or Senator McCain) can answer that. How many more Iraqis is it going to take?
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • AbuskedtiAbuskedti Posts: 1,917
    Cosmo wrote:
    ...
    Iraq is a fucking joke. Bush claims to have over 400,000 Iraqi troops in place. Add the 150,000 U.S. troops (total 550,000 troops) and the unknown number of Blackwater type mercenaries over there... how many fucking Iraqis does it take to 'Stand Up' their military so we can evacuate that place??? 400,000 isn't enough? How many do they need? 500,000? 800,000? What?
    ...
    Maybe some of the 'Surge is working' people here (or Senator McCain) can answer that. How many more Iraqis is it going to take?

    The problem as I see it, all that fire power is not at all concerned with securing the streets for the people. They are hunting down "enemies" of the new government. Which is essentially everyone they encounter.
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    Abuskedti wrote:
    The problem as I see it, all that fire power is not at all concerned with securing the streets for the people. They are hunting down "enemies" of the new government. Which is essentially everyone they encounter.
    ...
    Exactly.
    And what happened to Saddam Hussein's Republican Guard? The Fedayen Fighters? They did not take on the U.S. Armored Divisions... the Marine Expeditionary Forces... they just... disappeared.
    Anyone one want to venture to guess if any of them are part of the 400,000 Iraqi Security Forces? I think that at least one of them got past the screening process.
    ...
    We are possibly trainning and equipping an army that will level their... er... taxpayer funded guns at the backs of our own troops. Or, at least, Israel.
    ...
    Time.. and History will eventually reveal the scope of this monumental fuck up.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
Sign In or Register to comment.