DeElitification Is What We Need In This Country

g under p

This what we need in this country some De-Elitification for sur.

Peace

DriftingByTheStorm

By trial, or by fire?

I'm all for it, though.

The power structure in this country is top down, and not bottom up.
It is based on absolute corruption, deception, and abuse of the consent of the governed.

It all needs to change,
but sadly the type of change most envision is like changing the brand of band aid on a gaping cancerous and gangrenous flesh wound.

jimed14

g under p wrote:

This what we need in this country some De-Elitification for sur.

Peace

the second video, the new Megan McCain book .... that was great,

g under p

jimed14 wrote:

the second video, the new Megan McCain book .... that was great,

I'll have to check it I missed that one.

Peace

catch22

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

By trial, or by fire?

I'm all for it, though.

The power structure in this country is top down, and not bottom up.
It is based on absolute corruption, deception, and abuse of the consent of the governed.

It all needs to change,
but sadly the type of change most envision is like changing the brand of band aid on a gaping cancerous and gangrenous flesh wound.

it continues to amaze me that a stock market broker says stuff like this. hypocritical double standards at their finest.

how do you think those "at the top" get the money to stay on top. yup, thanks drifting. now we're going to buy another candidate. here's a $100 dividend for you, go buy yourself something nice and post on the pit about how the elite are screwing the world. just don't mess with our cash flow. there's a good soldier.

amazing. and you keep saying WE have our heads in the sand.

g under p

Fun With John & Sarah, that was pretty good. Just like a nice bedtime story.

Peace

DriftingByTheStorm

catch22 wrote:

it continues to amaze me that a stock market broker says stuff like this. hypocritical double standards at their finest.

how do you think those "at the top" get the money to stay on top. yup, thanks drifting. now we're going to buy another candidate. here's a $100 dividend for you, go buy yourself something nice and post on the pit about how the elite are screwing the world. just don't mess with our cash flow. there's a good soldier.

amazing. and you keep saying WE have our heads in the sand.

I really don't think you grasp the difference between players in a rigged game, and the men behind the scenes, The House if you will, that has CREATED the rigged game.

If i choose to put my money (which is a much smaller sum than you seem to think it is, buddy) in the stock market, that is my choice in a "free" market.

However, when the top 1% of the world meet in secret to create something as devious as the "Federal" "Reserve" which effectively guarantees them against ALL losses, and forces YOU and ME to pay for those losses, there is a VERY REAL PROBLEM with the system.

I don't give one flying fuck who invests in what, or which companies survive and which go under. That is the market at work.

What i care about, and care passionately about, is the fact that the game is NOT played on a level playing field.

The system, which was designed by JP Morgan, John D Rockefeller, Paul Warburg and their cronies (the "Money Trust", the masters of the universe), is designed specifically to ensure that the largest and RISKIEST bankers continue to make the most money, because THEY are the ones that are GUARANTEED AGAINST FAILURE by a system that THEY CREATED.

THAT is the problem with capitalism.
It has been utterly perverted.

I suggest you buy yourself a copy of the book, The Creature From Jekyll Island, and get started reading it. Maybe then you will have a better appreciation for who the REAL criminals in this country are, instead of constantly accusing me of being some elitist ass-raping shit bag, which I am anything but.

You need to understand that the absolute largest perversion of our free market system stems directly from the Federal Reserve, which serves to continually rob both you and I of our wealth through the massive hidden tax of inflation, and which serves to solidify the positions of the elite at the tip top of the pyramid by guaranteeing them against losses.

Trust me when i say my investments are not what is keeping you down.
:rolleyes:

orig_long red

Burn the arugela fields!!!!

catch22

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

I really don't think you grasp the difference between players in a rigged game, and the men behind the scenes, The House if you will, that has CREATED the rigged game.

If i choose to put my money (which is a much smaller sum than you seem to think it is, buddy) in the stock market, that is my choice in a "free" market.

However, when the top 1% of the world meet in secret to create something as devious as the "Federal" "Reserve" which effectively guarantees them against ALL losses, and forces YOU and ME to pay for those losses, there is a VERY REAL PROBLEM with the system.

I don't give one flying fuck who invests in what, or which companies survive and which go under. That is the market at work.

What i care about, and care passionately about, is the fact that the game is NOT played on a level playing field.

The system, which was designed by JP Morgan, John D Rockefeller, Paul Warburg and their cronies (the "Money Trust", the masters of the universe), is designed specifically to ensure that the largest and RISKIEST bankers continue to make the most money, because THEY are the ones that are GUARANTEED AGAINST FAILURE by a system that THEY CREATED.

THAT is the problem with capitalism.
It has been utterly perverted.

I suggest you buy yourself a copy of the book, The Creature From Jekyll Island, and get started reading it. Maybe then you will have a better appreciation for who the REAL criminals in this country are, instead of constantly accusing me of being some elitist ass-raping shit bag, which I am anything but.

You need to understand that the absolute largest perversion of our free market system stems directly from the Federal Reserve, which serves to continually rob both you and I of our wealth through the massive hidden tax of inflation, and which serves to solidify the positions of the elite at the tip top of the pyramid by guaranteeing them against losses.

Trust me when i say my investments are not what is keeping you down.
:rolleyes:

i see. it's all the federal reserve and the companies and people buying influence with YOUR money should be totally absolved? they have nothing to do with prohibitin a level playing field right?

so do away with the fed reserve. guess what will happen? a few dudes will get richer than shit from the stock market again, just as morgan and chase and them did. and what are they going to do? use their money to buy politicians and get a new fed reserve to benefit them again. why? because absolute power and money corrupt absolutely. that is what capitalism does... without any checks on the free market, somebody will ALWAYS get more than others and enough leverage to rig the game to their benefit, because nobody can stop them. it's inevitable. even if you allow that morgan and chase conspired for this, a new conspiracy will arise to accomplish the same result. the free market will not stop or correct elitism, it encourages it. it's a dog eat dog system, survival of the fittest. and the super elite will survive. no one can take them down.

DriftingByTheStorm

catch22 wrote:

i see. it's all the federal reserve and the companies and people buying influence with YOUR money should be totally absolved? they have nothing to do with prohibitin a level playing field right?

so do away with the fed reserve. guess what will happen? a few dudes will get richer than shit from the stock market again, just as morgan and chase and them did. and what are they going to do? use their money to buy politicians and get a new fed reserve to benefit them again. why? because absolute power and money corrupt absolutely. that is what capitalism does... without any checks on the free market, somebody will ALWAYS get more than others and enough leverage to rig the game to their benefit, because nobody can stop them. it's inevitable. even if you allow that morgan and chase conspired for this, a new conspiracy will arise to accomplish the same result. the free market will not stop or correct elitism, it encourages it. it's a dog eat dog system, survival of the fittest. and the super elite will survive. no one can take them down.

Great.
So whats your suggestion, exactly?

Abolishing the fed, putting a permanent congressional cap on the oustanding amount of currency and informing the populace of the importance of maintaining this policy sounds like a good start to me.

Some serious economic thinktanks that serve to formulate a responsible policy for banking regulation to ensure that the secondary credit market doesn't get wildly speculative like it has in the past seems like a fair way to go about this.

But you tell me,
what would YOU rather see?

catch22

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

Great.
So whats your suggestion, exactly?

Abolishing the fed, putting a permanent congressional cap on the oustanding amount of currency and informing the populace of the importance of maintaining this policy sounds like a good start to me.

Some serious economic thinktanks that serve to formulate a responsible policy for banking regulation to ensure that the secondary credit market doesn't get wildly speculative like it has in the past seems like a fair way to go about this.

But you tell me,
what would YOU rather see?

i'll formulate my thoughts and put them here. but right now, i'm going for sushi.

DriftingByTheStorm

catch22 wrote:

i'll formulate my thoughts and put them here. but right now, i'm going for sushi.

mmm.
sushi.

something we can agree on.

jimed14

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

mmm.
sushi.

something we can agree on.

sushi? you ELITIST!!!!

DriftingByTheStorm

catch22 wrote:

i'll formulate my thoughts and put them here. but right now, i'm going for sushi.

Hey catch, how was the sushi?
GodDAMN i got drunk last night.
Not even funny.

Still curious what your ideas are,
since you seem to agree with me about parts of the problem,
but you disagree with me on just about everything else.

catch22

the problem at its most basic is greed. any problems that fails to address that (and, in fact, only encourages it as a completely free market does) will not solve the problem.

what the stock market does is misplace incentives. pleasing stockholders becomes the only goal. a company can have a very successful year, but if it makes less profit than the year before, it is not a success because stockholders only see that their dividend dropped. thus ceo's have intense pressure for ever-increasing growth, which is simply unrealistic. that's why our economy here is faltering. this pressure forces jobs overseas to cut costs and drives wages down, which is every bit as problematic as inflation.

my proposal would thus be stricter regulation of the corporate form. someone else here pointed out that the corporation is a privilege here, not a right.

i would actually advocate doing away with corporate taxes entirely. let the taxes fall on the income, since we're beholden to that system. let any excess go to innovation. make it easier for companies to breathe. but then also place some restrictions on pay disparity. execs should not be making 10000 times as much as the people who break their backs to get them there. perhaps instead of corporate taxes, laws that mandate that certain percentages of profits be distributed equally within a company. instead of concentrating the wealth in the hands of 10 execs who can then buy candidates to safeguard their power, that wealth is spread and increases buying power in a much broader way. this is much better for the economy as 1000 employees with a bit of disposable income can contribute far more than 1 guy with a vast fortune and 999 people struggling to pay their bills. people have incentive to perform better on the job because they have a direct stake, to an extent. or at the very least, companies have more disposable income to reinvest, update, or pay salaries. or perhaps lower costs. or any number of options.

the sushi was awesome. we went upscale on a whim and it was worth every penny. esp since my gf was buying!

OffHeGoes29

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

I really don't think you grasp the difference between players in a rigged game, and the men behind the scenes, The House if you will, that has CREATED the rigged game.

If i choose to put my money (which is a much smaller sum than you seem to think it is, buddy) in the stock market, that is my choice in a "free" market.

However, when the top 1% of the world meet in secret to create something as devious as the "Federal" "Reserve" which effectively guarantees them against ALL losses, and forces YOU and ME to pay for those losses, there is a VERY REAL PROBLEM with the system.

I don't give one flying fuck who invests in what, or which companies survive and which go under. That is the market at work.

What i care about, and care passionately about, is the fact that the game is NOT played on a level playing field.

The system, which was designed by JP Morgan, John D Rockefeller, Paul Warburg and their cronies (the "Money Trust", the masters of the universe), is designed specifically to ensure that the largest and RISKIEST bankers continue to make the most money, because THEY are the ones that are GUARANTEED AGAINST FAILURE by a system that THEY CREATED.

THAT is the problem with capitalism.
It has been utterly perverted.

I suggest you buy yourself a copy of the book, The Creature From Jekyll Island, and get started reading it. Maybe then you will have a better appreciation for who the REAL criminals in this country are, instead of constantly accusing me of being some elitist ass-raping shit bag, which I am anything but.

You need to understand that the absolute largest perversion of our free market system stems directly from the Federal Reserve, which serves to continually rob both you and I of our wealth through the massive hidden tax of inflation, and which serves to solidify the positions of the elite at the tip top of the pyramid by guaranteeing them against losses.

Trust me when i say my investments are not what is keeping you down.
:rolleyes:

Dude, you listen to too much Rage Against the Machine

OffHeGoes29

Is there anything better than Capitalism?

heartdesire

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

I really don't think you grasp the difference between players in a rigged game, and the men behind the scenes, The House if you will, that has CREATED the rigged game.

If i choose to put my money (which is a much smaller sum than you seem to think it is, buddy) in the stock market, that is my choice in a "free" market.

However, when the top 1% of the world meet in secret to create something as devious as the "Federal" "Reserve" which effectively guarantees them against ALL losses, and forces YOU and ME to pay for those losses, there is a VERY REAL PROBLEM with the system.

I don't give one flying fuck who invests in what, or which companies survive and which go under. That is the market at work.

What i care about, and care passionately about, is the fact that the game is NOT played on a level playing field.

The system, which was designed by JP Morgan, John D Rockefeller, Paul Warburg and their cronies (the "Money Trust", the masters of the universe), is designed specifically to ensure that the largest and RISKIEST bankers continue to make the most money, because THEY are the ones that are GUARANTEED AGAINST FAILURE by a system that THEY CREATED.

THAT is the problem with capitalism.
It has been utterly perverted.

I suggest you buy yourself a copy of the book, The Creature From Jekyll Island, and get started reading it. Maybe then you will have a better appreciation for who the REAL criminals in this country are, instead of constantly accusing me of being some elitist ass-raping shit bag, which I am anything but.

You need to understand that the absolute largest perversion of our free market system stems directly from the Federal Reserve, which serves to continually rob both you and I of our wealth through the massive hidden tax of inflation, and which serves to solidify the positions of the elite at the tip top of the pyramid by guaranteeing them against losses.

Trust me when i say my investments are not what is keeping you down.
:rolleyes:

Been reading up on the book mentioned and the author. I'm gonna buy it today.

You two ... Drifting By The Storm & Catch22 ... carry on. Interesting conversation. Care to create your own independent party? I'm sure ya'll would create a good party ... I mean political party. If ya won, the celebration would be great ... pj music and sushi. I'm in ... : )

JaneNY

De-elitification sounds like the Cultural Revolution and we know how well THAT turned out. (I know the cartoon is a joke, but it is tapping into an attitude that does exist in the country)

DriftingByTheStorm

catch22 wrote:

the problem at its most basic is greed. any problems that fails to address that (and, in fact, only encourages it as a completely free market does) will not solve the problem.

what the stock market does is misplace incentives. pleasing stockholders becomes the only goal. a company can have a very successful year, but if it makes less profit than the year before, it is not a success because stockholders only see that their dividend dropped. thus ceo's have intense pressure for ever-increasing growth, which is simply unrealistic. that's why our economy here is faltering. this pressure forces jobs overseas to cut costs and drives wages down, which is every bit as problematic as inflation.

my proposal would thus be stricter regulation of the corporate form. someone else here pointed out that the corporation is a privilege here, not a right.

i would actually advocate doing away with corporate taxes entirely. let the taxes fall on the income, since we're beholden to that system. let any excess go to innovation. make it easier for companies to breathe. but then also place some restrictions on pay disparity. execs should not be making 10000 times as much as the people who break their backs to get them there. perhaps instead of corporate taxes, laws that mandate that certain percentages of profits be distributed equally within a company. instead of concentrating the wealth in the hands of 10 execs who can then buy candidates to safeguard their power, that wealth is spread and increases buying power in a much broader way. this is much better for the economy as 1000 employees with a bit of disposable income can contribute far more than 1 guy with a vast fortune and 999 people struggling to pay their bills. people have incentive to perform better on the job because they have a direct stake, to an extent. or at the very least, companies have more disposable income to reinvest, update, or pay salaries. or perhaps lower costs. or any number of options.

the sushi was awesome. we went upscale on a whim and it was worth every penny. esp since my gf was buying!

Eh.
I think you've got the problem down correctly, but i would disagree with your solution, as being a bit too restrictive of rights.

I have personally iterated the concept of the corporate form being a privilege and not a right MANY times on this board, and i DO think that it (along with the corrupt funneling of below market rate money from the Fed to the elitist institutions, and the implicit guarantees that ensure their reign) is at the heart of the problem.

What i would prefer to see instead is a removal of the PERSONAL income tax, which according to the original proposition by Taft was never the intent of the 16th Amendment.

Read his letter to congress proposing an income tax, because he makes it quite clear the dangers of the corporate form.

Taft wrote:

Another merit of this tax is the federal supervision, which must be exercised in order to make the law effective over the annual accounts and business transactions of all corporations. While the faculty of assuming a corporate form has been of the utmost utility in the business world, it is also true that substantially all of the abuses and all of the evils which have aroused the public to the necessity of reform were made possible by the use of this very faculty. If now, by a perfectly legitimate and effective system of taxation, we are incidentally able to possess the Government and the stockholders and the public of the knowledge of the real business transactions and the gains and profits of every corporation in the country, we have made a long step toward that supervisory control of corporations which may prevent a further abuse of power.

He also makes it clear that it was a TAX ON PRIVELAGE.

Taft wrote:

This is an excise tax upon the privilege of doing business as an artificial entity

Reverting the tax law to this original intent would rectify the imbalance in the market, by shifting the burden back on to the CORPORATE form to prove its own utility.

If something can truly be done more efficiently in the corporate form then it WILL still be done. But instead, if a business is incorporated solely to enjoy unjust benefit that befall ONLY the corporation, it will fade away as sole proprietorships (and i would argue that S Corps should ALSO be exempt from tax) take over a job that they are more advantageously able to complete, given that they would now be free from taxation and doing so under the non corporate form (or as a small S corp) would simply be more profitable.

This, along with abolishing the Fed would right a great many imbalances in the market and shift economics back in to the favor of small business and the american public, and strip the large corporations of many of thier unfair advantages.

And we wouldn't have to restrict freedoms by putting caps on market functions like pay.

??? I have to go to a bachelor party and shove some bills at some strippers.

Kann

OffHeGoes29 wrote:

Is there anything better than Capitalism?

80% of the world population is really hoping so.