Government Waste

Coathanger HalosCoathanger Halos Posts: 137
edited March 2007 in A Moving Train
Considering that I live in a capitalistic society, I am a huge advocate of Municipal, county, state, and federal government being run meticulously as a business.
Let's just say that I've been noticing some absurd investments.
For example: When my father retired from the police department, he went to work for the county sheriff. His job consisted of pushing papers, hiring and firing officers, etc. He did, however, have a county vehichle. All of his gas, tolls, maintainence, etc. was paid for by county tax dollars. In ten years of working for the county sherriff's department, he used this vehichle for ONE job assignment, which happened to be a drug raid. The rest of the time, he used it for driving to and from work, family vacations, bar hopping, and Sunday morning trips to the golf course...courtesy of county residents.

I can't even begin to think of just how many of these cars our tax dollars are being dumped into, whilst the county is in a budget deficit and cutting welfare, pensions, and medical coverage. In fact, my father is even suffering for his previous tax funded vehichle. His pension was just cut!

It's thinking about shit like this that really makes me want to run for office.
I'll cut you in.
Post edited by Unknown User on

Comments

  • OutOfBreathOutOfBreath Posts: 1,804
    Waste is inevitable within large bureaucratic systems. And trying to run them like businesses doesnt necessarily make them much different other then them being really penny-pinching even in issues they shouldn't. It's what you get for centralized rules to apply to all.

    But the car example isn't exactly the worst scenario I can imagine either.

    Peace
    Dan
    "YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death

    "Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
  • hidinghiding Posts: 290
    thats awesome a cop bar hopping in a county owned vehicle!!
    i love this country
    one love

    respect
  • soulsingingsoulsinging Posts: 13,202
    Considering that I live in a capitalistic society, I am a huge advocate of Municipal, county, state, and federal government being run meticulously as a business.
    Let's just say that I've been noticing some absurd investments.
    For example: When my father retired from the police department, he went to work for the county sheriff. His job consisted of pushing papers, hiring and firing officers, etc. He did, however, have a county vehichle. All of his gas, tolls, maintainence, etc. was paid for by county tax dollars. In ten years of working for the county sherriff's department, he used this vehichle for ONE job assignment, which happened to be a drug raid. The rest of the time, he used it for driving to and from work, family vacations, bar hopping, and Sunday morning trips to the golf course...courtesy of county residents.

    I can't even begin to think of just how many of these cars our tax dollars are being dumped into, whilst the county is in a budget deficit and cutting welfare, pensions, and medical coverage. In fact, my father is even suffering for his previous tax funded vehichle. His pension was just cut!

    It's thinking about shit like this that really makes me want to run for office.

    it's very reassuring to know that county officials responsible for enforcing dui laws like to DRIVE when they go bar-hopping.
  • hippiemomhippiemom Posts: 3,326
    But the car example isn't exactly the worst scenario I can imagine either.
    One car isn't the worst scenario, but a large urban county may have hundreds of such cars ... add 'em up and pretty soon you're talking about real money.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • OutOfBreathOutOfBreath Posts: 1,804
    hippiemom wrote:
    One car isn't the worst scenario, but a large urban county may have hundreds of such cars ... add 'em up and pretty soon you're talking about real money.
    But as I said, that's not really that much, considering. That was not pooh poohing it, just saying that it isn't very much compared to other sources of waste. :)

    Peace
    Dan
    "YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death

    "Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
  • hippiemom wrote:
    One car isn't the worst scenario, but a large urban county may have hundreds of such cars ... add 'em up and pretty soon you're talking about real money.

    Yup...considering a Crown Vic/Impala initially costs around $30,000 and they issue new vehichles about every 5 years. A typical 5 years worth of gas should cost about $21,000. Tolls (in Jersey) could run around $1500 every 5 years. Excluding maintainence (who the HELL would even want to touch that figure). Multiply those figures by, let's say 500 of these cars (even though there are probably far more than that), we're talking about spending $26,250,000 every 5 years.

    Who the hell wants to pay for that when they don't even have health care??
    I'll cut you in.
  • PJ_LukinPJ_Lukin Posts: 2,055
    As a real live elected County official, I can tell you that there are things that can be done to fix problems like these. We, that is the Government that I am part of, have instituted a 'fleet manager". This person oversees the entire fleet of county vehicles, over 750. We have a software program that tracks daily mileage, gasoline use, trip logs, maintenance schedules, etc.... soup to "lug" nuts.

    If there is not justification to have a vehicle based on actual use, the vehicle is pulled from the person and put in fleet for daily sign out.

    One small thing an inspired Government can do.

    Next Hybrids !!!
    ~!~ Peace ~!~ Love ~!~ Pearl Jam ~!~
  • Uncle LeoUncle Leo Posts: 1,059
    I work for a city and there are some problems. For example when the engineer and public works director go in a city car to play raquetball (I guess the PW Director takes a lot of liberities with City cars).

    I am sure there are other examples and it adds up. It's irresponsible. It's very simple. Ask yourself "is this trip for work." If not, under no circumstance should you take a City car.

    Organizations (even private ones) have waste. It's the tragedy of the commons. "This little thing won't matter", but they add up. While I don't think that government should be run "like a business" all the time, I do think that people need to remember where the money comes from and that we (government employees) all have a role in not being wasteful. I think that 90 percent of the people (speaking for my City only) are mindful of that. But some are not.
    I cannot come up with a new sig till I get this egg off my face.
  • OutOfBreathOutOfBreath Posts: 1,804
    PJ_Lukin wrote:
    As a real live elected County official, I can tell you that there are things that can be done to fix problems like these. We, that is the Government that I am part of, have instituted a 'fleet manager". This person oversees the entire fleet of county vehicles, over 750. We have a software program that tracks daily mileage, gasoline use, trip logs, maintenance schedules, etc.... soup to "lug" nuts.

    If there is not justification to have a vehicle based on actual use, the vehicle is pulled from the person and put in fleet for daily sign out.

    One small thing an inspired Government can do.

    Next Hybrids !!!
    Great. Really. :)

    But bear with me now, what is it exactly that has been done here? You have created a new position, implemented alot of controls and surveillance over the cars and whatnot...

    "The bureacracy expands to meet the increasing needs of the expanding bureucracy" ;)

    And this times 1000 is how a big bureaucracy is made...

    Peace
    Dan
    "YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death

    "Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
  • floyd1975floyd1975 Posts: 1,350
    Great. Really. :)

    But bear with me now, what is it exactly that has been done here? You have created a new position, implemented alot of controls and surveillance over the cars and whatnot...

    "The bureacracy expands to meet the increasing needs of the expanding bureucracy" ;)

    And this times 1000 is how a big bureaucracy is made...

    Peace
    Dan

    Good point here. This is the rationale that brought us the tiny Dept. of Homeland Security.
  • PJ_LukinPJ_Lukin Posts: 2,055
    Great. Really. :)

    But bear with me now, what is it exactly that has been done here? You have created a new position, implemented alot of controls and surveillance over the cars and whatnot...

    "The bureacracy expands to meet the increasing needs of the expanding bureucracy" ;)

    And this times 1000 is how a big bureaucracy is made...

    Peace
    Dan
    Since you asked.... What we did was:

    1) Restructure the department to include new duties to existing employees. No new employees.

    2) Put controls in place where there were none before making employees auto use accountable to someone.

    3) Put in a place a POOL of vehicles that are signed out each day instead of assigned vehicles for each department, net result in only 4 months is the postponement/elimination of the purchase around 15 vehicles.

    4) I forgot to mention that each and every vehicle will be serviced as required extending the life of the vehicle.

    This times 1000, is how you try to reduce the ever expanding burden to taxpayers ;)
    ~!~ Peace ~!~ Love ~!~ Pearl Jam ~!~
  • onelongsongonelongsong Posts: 3,517
    Considering that I live in a capitalistic society, I am a huge advocate of Municipal, county, state, and federal government being run meticulously as a business.
    Let's just say that I've been noticing some absurd investments.
    For example: When my father retired from the police department, he went to work for the county sheriff. His job consisted of pushing papers, hiring and firing officers, etc. He did, however, have a county vehichle. All of his gas, tolls, maintainence, etc. was paid for by county tax dollars. In ten years of working for the county sherriff's department, he used this vehichle for ONE job assignment, which happened to be a drug raid. The rest of the time, he used it for driving to and from work, family vacations, bar hopping, and Sunday morning trips to the golf course...courtesy of county residents.

    I can't even begin to think of just how many of these cars our tax dollars are being dumped into, whilst the county is in a budget deficit and cutting welfare, pensions, and medical coverage. In fact, my father is even suffering for his previous tax funded vehichle. His pension was just cut!

    It's thinking about shit like this that really makes me want to run for office.

    the problem is; government is being run as a business and therefore the waste. your father will also suffer from social security as they go back 18 months and you get (i think 65%) of your pay at that time. so if when he retired he went to a lesser paying job; his benefits will be much less.
    back to government waste. this is caused by everyone wanting a hand out. this puts government in peoples personal business. this means more departmants are needed and more services are needed so more people are needed for administration. if you work; this costs you more.
    i see your point but government is only taking advantage of tax breaks offered to businesses. i'm sure the car; gas; etc was written off and the taxpayers paid for it.
  • PJ_LukinPJ_Lukin Posts: 2,055
    i see your point but government is only taking advantage of tax breaks offered to businesses. i'm sure the car; gas; etc was written off and the taxpayers paid for it.

    Governments don't pay tax.
    ~!~ Peace ~!~ Love ~!~ Pearl Jam ~!~
  • onelongsongonelongsong Posts: 3,517
    PJ_Lukin wrote:
    Governments don't pay tax.

    because they don't show a profit.
  • PJ_LukinPJ_Lukin Posts: 2,055
    because they don't show a profit.
    No, because they don't have to. They are tax exempt. Plenty of Governments show a "profit". In fact most have a significant fund balance at the end of each year. Somewhere between 5 and 20% of the total budget. That is the recommendation of most state auditing bodies, like the Comptroller. Usually around 15%.
    ~!~ Peace ~!~ Love ~!~ Pearl Jam ~!~
  • OutOfBreathOutOfBreath Posts: 1,804
    PJ_Lukin wrote:
    Since you asked.... What we did was:

    1) Restructure the department to include new duties to existing employees. No new employees.

    2) Put controls in place where there were none before making employees auto use accountable to someone.

    3) Put in a place a POOL of vehicles that are signed out each day instead of assigned vehicles for each department, net result in only 4 months is the postponement/elimination of the purchase around 15 vehicles.

    4) I forgot to mention that each and every vehicle will be serviced as required extending the life of the vehicle.

    This times 1000, is how you try to reduce the ever expanding burden to taxpayers ;)

    That's how it starts... ;)
    It was a bit tongue in cheek on my part, but there is a serious point at the bottom. Complex systems will generate waste, since we are not omniscient or can predict the future. And a reason for complexity is of course dealing with, and arranging for seperate issues to run smoothly. Think of the tax rules of any nation for instance. They are bewilderingly complex in order to try and root out loopholes that the resourceful can misuse. Same with big bureaucracies, state- or otherwise. You do something at one end, it may ripple into other ends of the system. And adding layers of complexity, adds potential layers of waste.

    I'm not saying that it's hopeless, that what you did was a bad thing to do or anything like that. In fact, I believe that if we were really efficient, half the population would be out of a job, and seeing the value we put in jobs and work ethics as a society that wouldn't be a very good thing. Waste is inevitable in any big bureaucracy or system, but I can live with that. I think we have to to a certain extent. That being said, we should certainly minimize the most obvious waste of course, but bear in mind, that new rules and orderings usually needs new people to look after it and enforce it.

    And, I really wanted to use that quote, which I think is great. "The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the increasing needs of the expanding bureaucracy." Very Catch 22-ish :)

    Peace
    Dan
    "YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death

    "Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
  • CommyCommy Posts: 4,984
    Considering that I live in a capitalistic society, I am a huge advocate of Municipal, county, state, and federal government being run meticulously as a business.
    Let's just say that I've been noticing some absurd investments.
    For example: When my father retired from the police department, he went to work for the county sheriff. His job consisted of pushing papers, hiring and firing officers, etc. He did, however, have a county vehichle. All of his gas, tolls, maintainence, etc. was paid for by county tax dollars. In ten years of working for the county sherriff's department, he used this vehichle for ONE job assignment, which happened to be a drug raid. The rest of the time, he used it for driving to and from work, family vacations, bar hopping, and Sunday morning trips to the golf course...courtesy of county residents.

    I can't even begin to think of just how many of these cars our tax dollars are being dumped into, whilst the county is in a budget deficit and cutting welfare, pensions, and medical coverage. In fact, my father is even suffering for his previous tax funded vehichle. His pension was just cut!

    It's thinking about shit like this that really makes me want to run for office.

    A country that accounts for half of the entire world's military spending has bigger problems than worrying about filling up your dad's gas tank for a few years, although that is kinda shitty.
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    Personally... don't mind it. I mean, come on... the guys a cop. I would never want to be a cop. Same goes for fire fighters. Yeah, most of the time they sit around and eat doughnuts or wax the Hook and Ladder. But, at my job... I don't need to carry a fire arm at my side to keep some scum bag from pulling out a gun on a routine work task. And if you have ever been close to a brush fire on a hillside... or worse... an industrial fire at a plating company... no thanx. Thank you cops and firefighters. I don't care if you get a company car and free gas... you're doing shit I would never want to come close to.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • PJ_LukinPJ_Lukin Posts: 2,055
    That's how it starts... ;)
    It was a bit tongue in cheek on my part, but there is a serious point at the bottom. Complex systems will generate waste, since we are not omniscient or can predict the future. And a reason for complexity is of course dealing with, and arranging for seperate issues to run smoothly. Think of the tax rules of any nation for instance. They are bewilderingly complex in order to try and root out loopholes that the resourceful can misuse. Same with big bureaucracies, state- or otherwise. You do something at one end, it may ripple into other ends of the system. And adding layers of complexity, adds potential layers of waste.

    I'm not saying that it's hopeless, that what you did was a bad thing to do or anything like that. In fact, I believe that if we were really efficient, half the population would be out of a job, and seeing the value we put in jobs and work ethics as a society that wouldn't be a very good thing. Waste is inevitable in any big bureaucracy or system, but I can live with that. I think we have to to a certain extent. That being said, we should certainly minimize the most obvious waste of course, but bear in mind, that new rules and orderings usually needs new people to look after it and enforce it.

    And, I really wanted to use that quote, which I think is great. "The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the increasing needs of the expanding bureaucracy." Very Catch 22-ish :)

    Peace
    Dan
    You make very good points and one that I do truly believe.
    Simple is better.
    Just curious, how would your solution the problem like we and the original poster face? Unfettered Government spending has to be addressed. Don't you agree?

    Peace,
    BC
    ~!~ Peace ~!~ Love ~!~ Pearl Jam ~!~
  • OutOfBreathOutOfBreath Posts: 1,804
    PJ_Lukin wrote:
    You make very good points and one that I do truly believe.
    Simple is better.
    Just curious, how would your solution the problem like we and the original poster face? Unfettered Government spending has to be addressed. Don't you agree?

    Peace,
    BC

    I'm not sure there is an easy solution, if there is one at all. We are dependant on the big bureaucracies that makes up the public and private sectors. That's how the economy, labour market and everything is built. And bureaucracy is not exclusively state, it comes with size. Big corporations are just the same.

    What I'm saying is that some waste is inevitable and can/must be stomached, and popular quick fixes suggested by politicians might actually make it even worse. "Unfettered" government spending should certainly be addressed, but then you gotta argue with all the others exactly which parts are being over-spent on, and there you go. But it must be said, the american case is a bit special in these regards, given your military activity and spending, and your rather loose federation with patronage politics. Pork-barreling and such is a big problem for you. But that plays back to what I say about size making bureaucracy making waste. The bigger, the more wasteful. So as long as you have such a big country working as one entity, then the waste is going to be huge, and will remain so as long as the federation stands. This is why I am against the EU in general and particularly it becoming a federation.

    Also, bigger means less influence for people and less democracy.

    That's my take anyway. What we do about it? I dunno. There are no simple answers or things to do.

    Peace
    Dan
    "YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death

    "Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
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