Unions - Good or Bad?

dontloseyourheat

This seems like a big issue as all of the candidates talk about unions, some support them, some don't.

Could someone shed some light on the pros and cons of unions?

From what I have read:

Pros: Obviously they forced employers to provide safe conditions, liveable wages, and benefits.

Cons: The workers have demanded so much that the factories were either forced to close or export jobs to foreign countries. Also, because it is so difficult to fire a union member, the workers become lazy causing the company to lose money. Also, because of this, it is harder for good workers to get promoted.
I am correct in believing that if you work at a unionized company, you must join and must pay the fees?


From the little bit that I do know, it seems like unions are a good thing but can easily hurt a lot of people. What is done to prevent this?

Urban Hiker

Good. I love being a union employee. It's nice to have extra protection.

Recently, our union represented all the facts we had collected as to why we should be paid more money. Result - we are now the highest paid in our field in the state. I tried the very same thing with my previous non-union employer and was laughed out of the room. :cool:

Also, if I feel in anyway that I am being discriminated against, I have a place to take my complaint and I am protected from retaliation. Most people would take things to HR. I've seen that done in the past by a non-union employee who quickly found out HR is almost always there to protect the COMPANY.

On the bad side. It can be more difficult to terminate a lazy or trouble making employee. But, from what I've seen that's on managements' head for being too afraid to document the problems. Managers of union employees need to have the balls to document issues. It's mostly like the private sector in that aspect. If they make a good enough case the union will not back an underperforming employee's grievance.

cincybearcat

The Good: making sure a company has a conscience (did I spell that right?)

The Bad: they don't have a conscience themselves...see above note on spelling.

The Ugly: Any time you reward people more for getting older than for doing a good job, it's just plain stupid.

Unions are their own worst enemies...often acting 2-faced in order to protect one of their own when they would villify a company for the same behaviors.

soulsinging

cincybearcat wrote:

The Good: making sure a company has a conscience (did I spell that right?)

The Bad: they don't have a conscience themselves...see above note on spelling.

The Ugly: Any time you reward people more for getting older than for doing a good job, it's just plain stupid.

Unions are their own worst enemies...often acting 2-faced in order to protect one of their own when they would villify a company for the same behaviors.

ill be damned... look who came out the woodwork

i mostly agree with you. unions are a mixed bag. honestly, i think unions would be largely unnecessary if we switched from at-will employment to for cause firing. if we simply offered protection from retaliation to every employee, the negotiation protection unions offer would extend to everyone.

Urban Hiker

soulsinging wrote:

i mostly agree with you. unions are a mixed bag. honestly, i think unions would be unnecessary if we switched from at-will employment to for cause firing.

Hmmmm. I have to say I really like that idea.

Jeanie

Good and bad.

SilverSeed

soulsinging wrote:

ill be damned... look who came out the woodwork

i mostly agree with you. unions are a mixed bag. honestly, i think unions would be largely unnecessary if we switched from at-will employment to for cause firing. if we simply offered protection from retaliation to every employee, the negotiation protection unions offer would extend to everyone.

Can you explain further? I'm not familiar with at-will employment or it's difference to our system.

My take on unions is that they were very important in the early 20th century in terms of creating safe, sanitary, and fair working conditions. The politicization of the unions and their tendency to get caught in the cogs of the system have weakened them relative to their original cause. I do believe they have their place in society but they need to think about whether they should be mainly a political entity or one seeking first and foremost employee rights.

lalalalaaaaaaaa

Unions are a great thing...workers get way more rights with them than without them. Like any structure, the leaders need to be kept in check...but overall, they're certainly a great thing. I wish I was in one.

know1

I think that unions in the US are absolutely a bad thing. Not only that, but I believe they hasten the loss of jobs to other countries and therefore are the biggest contributors to their own demise. There is no need whatsoever for unions in the US. In fact, I'm so anti-union, that if I can buy goods from a non-union shop instead of a union one, then I will do so.

Now - I do think they have some relevance in developing countries.

flywallyfly

know1 wrote:

There is no need whatsoever for unions in the US. In fact, I'm so anti-union, that if I can buy goods from a non-union shop instead of a union one, then I will do so.

That's an interesting way to justify being a cheapass.

Commy

Unions were a major victory for the working class, something workers in the US paid for with their lives, somethign we should be fighting to save today.

Wages have stagnated in relation to inflation since the 70's. This while corporate profits have exponentially risen. This alone tells us Unions are still relevent today.

Outsourcing is a product of the WTO, WB and 'trade' aggreements. When a country aggrees to WB or WTO terms they basically allow corporations access to their labor pool, its not a direct result of Unions in the US.

Jeanie

Commy wrote:

Unions were a major victory for the working class, something workers in the US paid for with their lives, somethign we should be fighting to save today.

Wages have stagnated in relation to inflation since the 70's. This while corporate profits have exponentially risen. This alone tells us Unions are still relevent today.

Outsourcing is a product of the WTO, WB and 'trade' aggreements. When a country aggrees to WB or WTO terms they basically allow corporations access to their labor pool, its not a direct result of Unions in the US.

Now if we could just stop some of the ridiculous strong arm tactics that some unions have employed for the benefit of themselves we'd be doing alright I reckon.

stupidcorporatewhore

know1 wrote:

I think that unions in the US are absolutely a bad thing. Not only that, but I believe they hasten the loss of jobs to other countries and therefore are the biggest contributors to their own demise. There is no need whatsoever for unions in the US. In fact, I'm so anti-union, that if I can buy goods from a non-union shop instead of a union one, then I will do so.

Now - I do think they have some relevance in developing countries.

Yay for shitty products and the "third worlding" of America!

here's some other things you are against:

a fair wage

overtime

fair hours

humaine and safe working conditions

health benefits

pension

I didn't think you could say something dumber than "more taxes = less freedom", but congrats! you did it!

unions aren't the reason companies are taking jobs out of the US. Companies are taking jobs out of the US because they want to make as much money as possible and they don't care about the quality of the product they make.

If a company says they'll stay here but they'll pay me 2.00 an hour I say.....

FUCK YOU!! don't let the door hit you on the way out.

know, you are un american and a traitor to your own kind

brain of c

i love onions.

Songburst

Having been on both sides of the fence, the major problem that I have with unions is that they end up fighting for the rights of shitty workers. The guys who don't give a shit, call in sick every Friday, and submit injury reports every other shift are the guys who reap most of the benefit of union "protection". Good employees never need the union to go to bat for them and generally a company would pay a good workforce better than a workforce mixed with good workers and bums so the "good" workers are actually worse off in a union. The seniority way of promoting is also a fucked up system. I hated seeing the guy who worked his ass off every day get overlooked for apprenticeships or promotions because some other lazy slob happened to start working there a few months earlier.

That said, the power of collective bargaining is usually a good thing for the workers in a union.

JOEJOEJOE

I think unions are good for protecting workers' rights, however, when a union strongarms an employer to pay it's members wages that are way above market value, it becomes thuggish.

Everyone deserves to earn a living, but if a single mom can't afford babyfood because the grocery store has to pay an inflated wage to a checker, then all that it accomplishes is making the needy person even needier. Its all about wealth redistribution, and its not like big corporations are absorbing the costs...they pass them on to the consumer.

Kel Varnsen

From a Canadian perspective I think unions here are pretty much outdated. Canadian labour laws pretty much cover anything that a union might be fighting for and personally anything more is just greed. I also think that if a guy thinks he deserves X dollars an hour it should be his responsibility to fight for that wage, he shouldn't just get it because he fits into the pay scale. You can talk about Walmart closing that store in Quebec because they wanted to unionize, but I bet Quebec Labour laws are better than a lot of union contracts.

I also think unions drive up the cost of things too much. For example when I was in university I worked in a couple of pulp mills. One of the ones I worked in I had a job with the engineering department. I was in my final year of school and one of the highest paid co-op students doing engineering work. Yet since it was the summer they hired summer mill workers (typically the kids of union supervisors). And these kids with little or no experience made more then I did for pushing a broom all because they were union positions. I don't see how anyone bargaining can possibly justify a broom pusher making 20+ bucks an hour.

Commy

Kel Varnsen wrote:

From a Canadian perspective I think unions here are pretty much outdated. Canadian labour laws pretty much cover anything that a union might be fighting for and personally anything more is just greed. I also think that if a guy thinks he deserves X dollars an hour it should be his responsibility to fight for that wage, he shouldn't just get it because he fits into the pay scale. You can talk about Walmart closing that store in Quebec because they wanted to unionize, but I bet Quebec Labour laws are better than a lot of union contracts.

I also think unions drive up the cost of things too much. For example when I was in university I worked in a couple of pulp mills. One of the ones I worked in I had a job with the engineering department. I was in my final year of school and one of the highest paid co-op students doing engineering work. Yet since it was the summer they hired summer mill workers (typically the kids of union supervisors). And these kids with little or no experience made more then I did for pushing a broom all because they were union positions. I don't see how anyone bargaining can possibly justify a broom pusher making 20+ bucks an hour.

Its not a matter of greed. Its relative. How can a CEO justify making 100-or 1000 times that of an employee when the employee works just as hard or harder than the CEO. Why shouldn't a guy puching a broom make 20$/hour? Who determines what he is worth?

PaperPlates

Commy wrote:

Its not a matter of greed. Its relative. How can a CEO justify making 100-or 1000 times that of an employee when the employee works just as hard or harder than the CEO. Why shouldn't a guy puching a broom make 20$/hour? Who determines what he is worth?

Apparently unions do

Kel Varnsen

Commy wrote:

Its not a matter of greed. Its relative. How can a CEO justify making 100-or 1000 times that of an employee when the employee works just as hard or harder than the CEO. Why shouldn't a guy puching a broom make 20$/hour? Who determines what he is worth?

Sure it is a matter of greed. Canadian labour laws protect against things like overtime, worker safety conditions and what you can be fired for. Everything else a union might fight for is money. The difference between the CEO and the guy pushing the broom is that if the CEO fucks up it affects the whole company if the broom pusher fucks up there is dirt on the floor. As far as whether or not he is worth it or now, how do you justify a broom pusher making $20/ hour in a union operation while a broom pusher somewhere else make $8.50. All the inflated wage does is make the union job really hard to get (which is why they all go to supervisors kids not the people who could use them the most).

Not to menion I have read enough books about The Mafia to know that unions are still a huge money maker for them.

Songburst

Kel Varnsen wrote:

I also think unions drive up the cost of things too much. For example when I was in university I worked in a couple of pulp mills. One of the ones I worked in I had a job with the engineering department. I was in my final year of school and one of the highest paid co-op students doing engineering work. Yet since it was the summer they hired summer mill workers (typically the kids of union supervisors). And these kids with little or no experience made more then I did for pushing a broom all because they were union positions. I don't see how anyone bargaining can possibly justify a broom pusher making 20+ bucks an hour.

That was the main reason that I went into consulting. I couldn't handle being salaried and not getting paid for every hour I worked. Consulting is actually more stress than mill engineering because the workload is insane but it is infintely more challenging and infinitely more rewarding.

Are you still working at pulp mills? Do you need a good E&I consultant? I'm always looking for more work for our company - haha.