Unions - Good or Bad?
dontloseyourheat
Posts: 483
This seems like a big issue as all of the candidates talk about unions, some support them, some don't.
Could someone shed some light on the pros and cons of unions?
From what I have read:
Pros: Obviously they forced employers to provide safe conditions, liveable wages, and benefits.
Cons: The workers have demanded so much that the factories were either forced to close or export jobs to foreign countries. Also, because it is so difficult to fire a union member, the workers become lazy causing the company to lose money. Also, because of this, it is harder for good workers to get promoted.
I am correct in believing that if you work at a unionized company, you must join and must pay the fees?
From the little bit that I do know, it seems like unions are a good thing but can easily hurt a lot of people. What is done to prevent this?
Could someone shed some light on the pros and cons of unions?
From what I have read:
Pros: Obviously they forced employers to provide safe conditions, liveable wages, and benefits.
Cons: The workers have demanded so much that the factories were either forced to close or export jobs to foreign countries. Also, because it is so difficult to fire a union member, the workers become lazy causing the company to lose money. Also, because of this, it is harder for good workers to get promoted.
I am correct in believing that if you work at a unionized company, you must join and must pay the fees?
From the little bit that I do know, it seems like unions are a good thing but can easily hurt a lot of people. What is done to prevent this?
"Don't lose your inner heat...ever" - EV 5/13/06
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Recently, our union represented all the facts we had collected as to why we should be paid more money. Result - we are now the highest paid in our field in the state. I tried the very same thing with my previous non-union employer and was laughed out of the room. :cool:
Also, if I feel in anyway that I am being discriminated against, I have a place to take my complaint and I am protected from retaliation. Most people would take things to HR. I've seen that done in the past by a non-union employee who quickly found out HR is almost always there to protect the COMPANY.
On the bad side. It can be more difficult to terminate a lazy or trouble making employee. But, from what I've seen that's on managements' head for being too afraid to document the problems. Managers of union employees need to have the balls to document issues. It's mostly like the private sector in that aspect. If they make a good enough case the union will not back an underperforming employee's grievance.
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"We've laid the groundwork. It's like planting the seeds. And next year, it's spring." - Nader
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Prepare for tending to your garden, America.
The Bad: they don't have a conscience themselves...see above note on spelling.
The Ugly: Any time you reward people more for getting older than for doing a good job, it's just plain stupid.
Unions are their own worst enemies...often acting 2-faced in order to protect one of their own when they would villify a company for the same behaviors.
ill be damned... look who came out the woodwork
i mostly agree with you. unions are a mixed bag. honestly, i think unions would be largely unnecessary if we switched from at-will employment to for cause firing. if we simply offered protection from retaliation to every employee, the negotiation protection unions offer would extend to everyone.
Hmmmm. I have to say I really like that idea.
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"We've laid the groundwork. It's like planting the seeds. And next year, it's spring." - Nader
***********************
Prepare for tending to your garden, America.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
Can you explain further? I'm not familiar with at-will employment or it's difference to our system.
My take on unions is that they were very important in the early 20th century in terms of creating safe, sanitary, and fair working conditions. The politicization of the unions and their tendency to get caught in the cogs of the system have weakened them relative to their original cause. I do believe they have their place in society but they need to think about whether they should be mainly a political entity or one seeking first and foremost employee rights.
"Sometimes I think I'd be better off dead. No, wait, not me, you." -Deep Toughts, Jack Handy
Now - I do think they have some relevance in developing countries.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
That's an interesting way to justify being a cheapass.
Wages have stagnated in relation to inflation since the 70's. This while corporate profits have exponentially risen. This alone tells us Unions are still relevent today.
Outsourcing is a product of the WTO, WB and 'trade' aggreements. When a country aggrees to WB or WTO terms they basically allow corporations access to their labor pool, its not a direct result of Unions in the US.
*~You're IT Bert!~*
Hold on to the thread
The currents will shift
Yay for shitty products and the "third worlding" of America!
here's some other things you are against:
a fair wage
overtime
fair hours
humaine and safe working conditions
health benefits
pension
I didn't think you could say something dumber than "more taxes = less freedom", but congrats! you did it!
unions aren't the reason companies are taking jobs out of the US. Companies are taking jobs out of the US because they want to make as much money as possible and they don't care about the quality of the product they make.
If a company says they'll stay here but they'll pay me 2.00 an hour I say.....
FUCK YOU!! don't let the door hit you on the way out.
know, you are un american and a traitor to your own kind
http://www.myspace.com/brain_of_c
That said, the power of collective bargaining is usually a good thing for the workers in a union.
Everyone deserves to earn a living, but if a single mom can't afford babyfood because the grocery store has to pay an inflated wage to a checker, then all that it accomplishes is making the needy person even needier. Its all about wealth redistribution, and its not like big corporations are absorbing the costs...they pass them on to the consumer.
I also think unions drive up the cost of things too much. For example when I was in university I worked in a couple of pulp mills. One of the ones I worked in I had a job with the engineering department. I was in my final year of school and one of the highest paid co-op students doing engineering work. Yet since it was the summer they hired summer mill workers (typically the kids of union supervisors). And these kids with little or no experience made more then I did for pushing a broom all because they were union positions. I don't see how anyone bargaining can possibly justify a broom pusher making 20+ bucks an hour.
Its not a matter of greed. Its relative. How can a CEO justify making 100-or 1000 times that of an employee when the employee works just as hard or harder than the CEO. Why shouldn't a guy puching a broom make 20$/hour? Who determines what he is worth?
Apparently unions do
www.myspace.com/jensvad
Sure it is a matter of greed. Canadian labour laws protect against things like overtime, worker safety conditions and what you can be fired for. Everything else a union might fight for is money. The difference between the CEO and the guy pushing the broom is that if the CEO fucks up it affects the whole company if the broom pusher fucks up there is dirt on the floor. As far as whether or not he is worth it or now, how do you justify a broom pusher making $20/ hour in a union operation while a broom pusher somewhere else make $8.50. All the inflated wage does is make the union job really hard to get (which is why they all go to supervisors kids not the people who could use them the most).
Not to menion I have read enough books about The Mafia to know that unions are still a huge money maker for them.
That was the main reason that I went into consulting. I couldn't handle being salaried and not getting paid for every hour I worked. Consulting is actually more stress than mill engineering because the workload is insane but it is infintely more challenging and infinitely more rewarding.
Are you still working at pulp mills? Do you need a good E&I consultant? I'm always looking for more work for our company - haha.
Its all relative tho. If you believe in democracy and freedom than you should believe that it should apply to the workforce. Granted, a fuckup is a little more important at the ceo's level but if you recognize labor's worth...without the people running the mill, the workers actually doing the work, THERE IS NO MILL to run. That is what unions were created to protect.
I dont' know much about the mob ties, but its seems fairly obvious that unions have had to give kickbacks to the mob (Jimma Hoffa probably refused).
in the most simplistic terms possible, at-will employment means you can be fired for any reason or no reason. if the employer decides he doesn't like you, or thinks you're agitating too much, he can fire you.
for cause means essentially that when you are given a job, you are entitled to keep it unless the employer has a reason for firing you. that can be anything from business need to the worker screwing up.
there are a whole host of nuances and effects, but basically it means employers don't have unfettered discretion to do whatever they want to workers.
Terrible idea imo. at will employment.
Unions have their pros and cons. The pros are the obvious such as good pay, benefits, worker conditions, respectful treatment from management, and so on.
UPS drivers are the highest paid in the courier industry, and all UPS employees including the part-time employees get unparalled benefits. In spite of the extra costs that go into employee welfare, UPS still turns a profit and maintains a consistently strong stock value.
So, with that in mind, it's safe to say that other couriers could easily pay their employees more without going out of business, but don't because their employees aren't unionized.
On the other hand, there are some real piece of shit employees at UPS who continue to work there because they are nearly impossible for management to fire. We had one employee who was allergic to hard work, was always late, and was constantly absent.
On top of that, he had a real shitty attitude toward other employees and was just basically an all-around douche. I can respect an employee who is just unfriendly. I think we all have a right to be unfriendly. But, he was beyond that. He would go out of his way to start conflicts and get under peoples' skin.
On one occasion he forgot to bring his boots to work, so he "borrowed" another driver's boots without asking. In my book, that's stealing. But, even that couldn't get him fired.
So, after putting up with his bullshit for so long, and after trying to reason with the guy time and again, I started the paperwork on him. This meant keeping a detailed log of his infractions and logging official "talks" with him about those infractions.
That's when the union harassment began. Suddenly I had Teamster reps showing up at my office and sometimes out at my dock giving me a hard time about how I treated my employees even though there was nothing they could specifically point out. I would hear shit like, "From what I can tell, you need to do a better job of managing your employees," and so on and so forth. It was vague shit that had no merit, and had the sole purpose of making me uncomfortable.
I had shop stewards circling my area and looking for anything they could give me shit about.
At UPS, there's a rule about management and the handling of packages. Per the Teamster contract, non-unionized personnel (aka management) were not allowed to physically aid in the progress of package movement. This was so unionized laborers could be ensured the most work hours they could get.
But, as anyone at UPS will tell you, this is an impossible rule to follow. Sometimes there just isn't enough time to call a laborer over to move this box or that box when that laborer is already doing something else.
In fact, it's a rule that is rarely enforced by the union -that is unless they want to harass somebody. So, low and behold, I became the only supervisor at that UPS facility who couldn't touch packages. The second I picked up a box, union foot soldiers would swoop down and chew a big chunk out of my ass.
Of course, that's something I would respect if they applied that consistently. But, again, it was a tool of harassment for them, not an angle of upholding worker rights.
Eventually, because that POS employee fucked up so much and so often that it became possible for us fire him, even the union reps realized that they were backing a major douchebag and they backed off.
But, that whole experience is just one example of how the teamsters union makes it so that it becomes impossible for management to do its job while lazy, shiftless employees make the same dollars as hard-working employees with little standing in their way.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
A friend of mine is a superviser at a local UPS facility, and he can't touch a box, due to the union. What's basically happened is the Unions have fought for their employees, ensuring they have a job regardless of managemnet, If you as a manager have time to unload boxes then maybe your job isnt' needed, whereas in the past that would mean firing an employee doing the grunt work.
Wow, that's an interesting argumentation style you have there. Do you mind if I try it?
Unions are bad, and if you need a union, it's because you're a lazy worker.
Hey, that was kinda fun. I can see why you resort to it. There's nothing as exhilirating as making general statements without having to really explain them or probably without having to really know what I'm talking about. Maybe after you graduate from high school or just pass a basic writing & composition course, your posts will change.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
Depending on the union, they may be over-zealous as in sponger's story, but they did back down eventually when they realized they were in the wrong. But overall it is important that workers also have some power they can wield.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
You can have all that without a union. Unions had their time and place, and except for a very small % of companies, unions are no longer necessary.
The market should determine the worth. If they can't find anyone to push a broom for $5/hr, and they really need someone to push a broom, then they go to $6....etc.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.