Nader/Gonzalez Issues

2

Comments

  • my2hands
    my2hands Posts: 17,117
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    damn, how many times do I have to keep saying it?

    media and corporate money/backing

    oh, so the guy that was a Senator and VP candidate didnt have enough corporate backing to take the next step?

    if the corproate influence is that strong, then why does Kucinich still have a job? wouldnt they push him out? wouldnt pat leahy be gone, a flat out socialist? or barbara boxer? wouldnt Hillary have won on super tuesday? wouldnt hillary already be the candidate?
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    my2hands wrote:
    oh, so the guy that was a Senator and VP candidate didnt have enough corporate backing to take the next step?

    if the corproate influence is that strong, then why does Kucinich still have a job? wouldnt they push him out? wouldnt pat leahy be gone, a flat out socialist? or barbara boxer? wouldnt Hillary have won on super tuesday? wouldnt hillary already be the candidate?


    They do have corporate sponsers...but the corporations also are buying the best gimmick and marketing...their money is on Obama for that reason. He can sell it to the masses.

    Kucinich gets exposure locally where he represents and is able to gain the trust of his constituents due that fact. On a national level, most people don't even know who he is and it would be impossible for him or Nader to gain the kind of exposure they would need to get a large national support due to being shut out by the corporate media.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • VictoryGin
    VictoryGin Posts: 1,207
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    There is room for realistic and idealistic people in this world and both are needed.

    I like this quote...it does a great job of describing the mindset of idealism and all the things idealist have fought to bring into this world that weren't a reality until people decided to fight for them.


    "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
    -George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman (1903)
    "Maxims for Revolutionists"

    definitely idealism is needed. but i think nader's presidential run is severely misguided.
    if you wanna be a friend of mine
    cross the river to the eastside
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    VictoryGin wrote:
    therein lies the impasse. nader will never be president so you will never get a chance to see if his rhetoric would be realized in that capacity.

    obama has a chance. sing it brothers and sisters: YES WE CAN!


    It is there for all to see...his accomplishments aren't a secret.

    Obama does have a good chance and will probably win it but that has shit to do with why someone should support him. Yes You Will have Obama as president...more than likely. The question is whether or not he's full of shit. All signs have pointed to: Yes He Is!
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    VictoryGin wrote:
    definitely idealism is needed. but i think nader's presidential run is severely misguided.

    Funny, that's always the same word that pops into my mind when thinking of Obama supporters.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • my2hands
    my2hands Posts: 17,117
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    They do have corporate sponsers...but the corporations also are buying the best gimmick and marketing...their money is on Obama for that reason. He can sell it to the masses.
    so obama is strictly a corporate tool being manipulated by the corporate powers that really decide who will be president? if that is so the why vote? if corporations actually decide the president? is that ll they decide? or senate races and house races as well?
    Kucinich gets exposure locally where he represents and is able to gain the trust of his constituents due that fact. On a national level, most people don't even know who he is and it would be impossible for him or Nader to gain the kind of exposure they would need to get a large national support due to being shut out by the corporate media.
    not being known on a national level is not because of a corporate conspiracy. it is because 95% of people cant name 1 senator or congressmen outside of their state... and most cannot even name their states congressmen. by the way, ralph nader had more name recognition then Barack Obama on january 1st 2008. ralph nader is a friggin household name if you havent noticed after 2000


    ps... didnt ralp nader announce his candidacy on NBC, the countries larget network, on the countires most respected and watched political show, Meet the Press? remind me how nader is being blackballed by the media? he is being black balled because he is a non story and has nearly zero support. if he had 20% support he would be on the tube daily like ross perot was
  • VictoryGin
    VictoryGin Posts: 1,207
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    It is there for all to see...his accomplishments aren't a secret.

    Obama does have a good chance and will probably win it but that has shit to do with why someone should support him. Yes You Will have Obama as president...more than likely. The question is whether or not he's full of shit. All signs have pointed to: Yes He Is!

    i haven't gotten the impression from supporters that they're supporting obama just because he can win. in my experience, supporters like what he has done, like what he says he will do, and people are excited because we'll actually get a chance to see if these things happen.

    and you think we're misguided, which is why this song and dance here is pointless.
    if you wanna be a friend of mine
    cross the river to the eastside
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    my2hands wrote:
    so obama is strictly a corporate tool being manipulated by the corporate powers that really decide who will be president? if that is so the why vote? if corporations actually decide the president? is that ll they decide? or senate races and house races as well?

    It's up to the people to get fed up enough to change it.

    my2hands wrote:
    not being known on a national level is not because of a corporate conspiracy. it is because 95% of people cant name 1 senator or congressmen outside of their state... and most cannot even name their states congressmen. by the way, ralph nader had more name recognition then Barack Obama on january 1st 2008. ralph nader is a friggin household name if you havent noticed after 2000


    I disagree with that. I've spoken to many who don't know a thing about Nader. And the ones that do will spit the negative spin of spoiler that they hear from the media much more often than the ones who are educated on exactly what Nader has done for this country.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    VictoryGin wrote:
    i haven't gotten the impression from supporters that they're supporting obama just because he can win. in my experience, supporters like what he has done, like what he says he will do, and people are excited because we'll actually get a chance to see if these things happen.

    and you think we're misguided, which is why this song and dance here is pointless.


    You brought up the ability to win angle not me.

    and the misguided one.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • VictoryGin
    VictoryGin Posts: 1,207
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    You brought up the ability to win angle not me.

    what's your point? i did here:

    http://forums.pearljam.com/showpost.php?p=5452786&postcount=20

    please show me where i said that's why people are voting for obama. i merely replied that's where the impasse lies. great for you for liking a candidate, but that is also a pretty safe position to be in: to think that nader would accomplish what he states but yet you'll never know. because he will not be elected. as for obama, we'll have a chance to see what he can accomplish. and hopefully he will accomplish these shared beliefs. i'm personally pretty jazzed about the situation.
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    and the misguided one.

    i stated that i thought nader's presidential run was misguided. i didn't call you misguided. however, you did imply that obama supporters themselves were misguided. was there a point with all of this? it's lost on me.
    if you wanna be a friend of mine
    cross the river to the eastside
  • my2hands
    my2hands Posts: 17,117
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    I disagree with that. I've spoken to many who don't know a thing about Nader.

    so, you dont think people know who Ralph Nader is? and that is because of a corporate controlled media conspiracy?


    i will just say that i think you are wrong on both counts. nader is extremely well known, and he is a non issue because, well, he is a non issue.
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    my2hands wrote:
    so, you dont think people know who Ralph Nader is? and that is because of a corporate controlled media conspiracy?

    conspiracy? they are pretty blatant about it.
    my2hands wrote:
    i will just say that i think you are wrong on both counts. nader is extremely well known, and he is a non issue because, well, he is a non issue.

    oh well that makes sense...he is because he just is.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    VictoryGin wrote:
    what's your point? i did here:

    http://forums.pearljam.com/showpost.php?p=5452786&postcount=20

    please show me where i said that's why people are voting for obama. i merely replied that's where the impasse lies. great for you for liking a candidate, but that is also a pretty safe position to be in: to think that nader would accomplish what he states but yet you'll never know. because he will not be elected. as for obama, we'll have a chance to see what he can accomplish. and hopefully he will accomplish these shared beliefs. i'm personally pretty jazzed about the situation.

    He has already had time to prove he's more than just words. I haven't seen anything too impressive.

    VictoryGin wrote:
    i stated that i thought nader's presidential run was misguided. i didn't call you misguided. however, you did imply that obama supporters themselves were misguided. was there a point with all of this? it's lost on me.

    So supporting a presidential run that is misguided isn't misguided on my part? I took them as the same. Or are you privy to some clear sense of guidance I'm not able to tap into?
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • VictoryGin
    VictoryGin Posts: 1,207
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    He has already had time to prove he's more than just words. I haven't seen anything too impressive.

    and that's why you're not voting for him. others who have and will obvs feel differently. but what i was saying above, which obviously i did not make clear enough, was that we will never see what nader can accomplish in the capacity of being president and having to deal with the rest of the government in our system of checks and balances. we have not yet seen what obama can do in that capacity as president, though he has worked with congress in a different capacity). but i'm trying to make that happen and i think we have a chance at that one.

    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    So supporting a presidential run that is misguided isn't misguided on my part? I took them as the same. Or are you privy to some clear sense of guidance I'm not able to tap into?

    well i'd probably have to get ffg on this, but i think what you said is fallacious. i said i think nader's presidential run is misguided. you are not nader's presidential run; therefore, it is not a given that you are misguided.
    if you wanna be a friend of mine
    cross the river to the eastside
  • my2hands
    my2hands Posts: 17,117
    "Name Recognition: Ralph Nader has the name recognition to run a serious presidential campaign that reaches the masses of voters. Most Americans of every economic class and ethnic group know who Ralph Nader is.[/quote] And what they know about Ralph Nader is that he always stands up for the little people against the big moneyed interests.

    Media Presence: Nader has the public profile, record, and stature to command media attention, which he continues to receive today as a prominent public citizen. As a serious presidential candidate who could have a big impact on the debate and outcome, Nader’s coverage will explode when he announces. An historic reunion of Nader and the Greens in 2008 in a unified independent progressive presidential campaign to stop the war, meet the people’s needs, and save the planet will electrify progressive activists, upset the two corporate party election dynamic, and compel the focus of the media spotlight."

    http://www.draftnader.org/case-for-nader.php



    "Ralph Nader doesn't have the biggest problem of most third- and fourth-party candidates: name recognition. Since the mid-1960s, when he burst on the national scene with his book on dangerous automobiles, "Unsafe At Any Speed," Nader has been one of the nation's best known consumer advocates."

    http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1996/candidates/velection/nader.shtml


    "Mr Nader, 73, enjoys high name recognition, is a familiar figure on American television and author of several books."

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/jun/21/uselections2008.usa
  • stupidcorporatewhore
    stupidcorporatewhore Posts: 761
    what will be the bigger dissapointment?

    Nader not winning (which is likely)

    or Nader winning and not being able to do anything because he cannot function in a deeply corrupt system?
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    stupidcorporatewhore wrote:
    what will be the bigger dissapointment?

    Nader not winning (which is likely)

    or Nader winning and not being able to do anything because he cannot function in a deeply corrupt system?


    I believe anything is possible if we demand enough from our gov't in place of our current policy of accepting nothing from them.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    my2hands wrote:
    "Name Recognition: Ralph Nader has the name recognition to run a serious presidential campaign that reaches the masses of voters. Most Americans of every economic class and ethnic group know who Ralph Nader is. And what they know about Ralph Nader is that he always stands up for the little people against the big moneyed interests.

    Media Presence: Nader has the public profile, record, and stature to command media attention, which he continues to receive today as a prominent public citizen. As a serious presidential candidate who could have a big impact on the debate and outcome, Nader’s coverage will explode when he announces. An historic reunion of Nader and the Greens in 2008 in a unified independent progressive presidential campaign to stop the war, meet the people’s needs, and save the planet will electrify progressive activists, upset the two corporate party election dynamic, and compel the focus of the media spotlight."

    http://www.draftnader.org/case-for-nader.php



    "Ralph Nader doesn't have the biggest problem of most third- and fourth-party candidates: name recognition. Since the mid-1960s, when he burst on the national scene with his book on dangerous automobiles, "Unsafe At Any Speed," Nader has been one of the nation's best known consumer advocates."

    http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1996/candidates/velection/nader.shtml


    "Mr Nader, 73, enjoys high name recognition, is a familiar figure on American television and author of several books."

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/jun/21/uselections2008.usa


    If you wanna sit here and pretend Nader gets anywhere even remotely close to the amount of coverage Obama, Hillary and McCain get then go right ahead..... He is known nationally, sure but certainly not by the masses in general and most often is associated with the negative spin the media loves to pin him with.

    Even you were posting that Nader hasn't done anything but bring us seat belts, spoil the 2000 election and then disappear every 4 years between elections so you kinda made my point for me.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    VictoryGin wrote:
    and that's why you're not voting for him. others who have and will obvs feel differently. but what i was saying above, which obviously i did not make clear enough, was that we will never see what nader can accomplish in the capacity of being president and having to deal with the rest of the government in our system of checks and balances. we have not yet seen what obama can do in that capacity as president, though he has worked with congress in a different capacity). but i'm trying to make that happen and i think we have a chance at that one.

    Yeah but my point was that Nader already has actions to back up his words and Obama....not so much. And I'm just not seeing much of a shift in current policy in any of Obama's stances either way not on the issues we need to finally start addressing if we really hope to see come actual change.


    VictoryGin wrote:
    well i'd probably have to get ffg on this, but i think what you said is fallacious. i said i think nader's presidential run is misguided. you are not nader's presidential run; therefore, it is not a given that you are misguided.

    But like I asked, does me supporting this 'misguided' run make me also misguided? If not then explain that please.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • VictoryGin
    VictoryGin Posts: 1,207
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    Yeah but my point was that Nader already has actions to back up his words and Obama....not so much. And I'm just not seeing much of a shift in current policy in any of Obama's stances either way not on the issues we need to finally start addressing if we really hope to see come actual change.





    But like I asked, does me supporting this 'misguided' run make me also misguided? If not then explain that please.

    if i haven't made myself clear already well i just don't know what more to say to help. especially with what you said in the first part above, we'll keep going in circles.
    if you wanna be a friend of mine
    cross the river to the eastside

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