Let's talk about Marxism!! :)

CorporateWhore

Rushlimbo wrote:

It's called "globalisation".

Yet another unknown variable that Marx could not have predicted, which is why his ideas are inapplicable to society. Thanks!

catefrances

CorporateWhore wrote:

Unfortunately, the poor of other countries are coming and taking jobs to make more money because they WANT to be a part of the Capitalist system.

no. the poor of other countries travel to rich countries not because they want to be 'part of the capitalist system' but because they want to LIVE. rich countries rape poor countries of their natural resources and return the favour by getting their products assembled and made in those poor countries. thus adding to their own already fat coffers while giving nothing back but corpses and the want of the disenfranchised to emigrate. above all, the profits must be maintained and increased no matter what and in any way available.
that is your capitalist system.

CorporateWhore

Rushlimbo wrote:

Please name as many nations that are purely a command economy as you can. You can stop at five if you get tired of typing.

Please name as many nations that are purely a capitalist economy as you can. You can stop at five if you get tired of typing.

CorporateWhore

catefrances wrote:

no. the poor of other countries travel to rich countries not because they want to be 'part of the capitalist system' but because they want to LIVE. rich countries rape poor countries of their natural resources and return the favour by getting their products assembled and made in those poor countries. thus adding to their own already fat coffers while giving nothing back but corpses and the want of the disenfranchised to emigrate. above all, the profits must be maintained and increased no matter what and in any way available.
that is your capitalist system.

This thread isn't about Capitalism, like I said.

I could defend Capitalism til I'm blue in the face because it's better than Marxism. It was better in 1776 when globalisation wasn't around and it's better now!

People like to complain about our system but when you note that their alternatives are plainly false, they can't stop complaining.

Come up with something better! Otherwise, don't complain.

jeffbr

Rushlimbo wrote:

Please name as many nations that are purely a command economy as you can. You can stop at five if you get tired of typing.

Please name as many nations that are purely a capitalist economy as you can.

Silly exercise, right? But we can see countries which use command economies as their basis, and other countries which rely on the market for direction. You may think a bunch of big brains in a room deciding on the value of labor or production makes sense. I think a bunch of individuals buying, selling and trading determine value.

Rushlimbo

CorporateWhore wrote:

Please name as many nations that are purely a capitalist economy as you can. You can stop at five if you get tired of typing.

"mixed economy": a mixture of freedom and controls. i.e., crippled capitalism, i.e., a hampered market economy.

Rushlimbo

jeffbr wrote:

Please name as many nations that are purely a capitalist economy as you can.

Silly exercise, right? But we can see countries which use command economies as their basis, and other countries which rely on the market for direction. You may think a bunch of big brains in a room deciding on the value of labor or production makes sense. I think a bunch of individuals buying, selling and trading determine value.

LMAO ! I never said I favored marxism, silly man ! I was just proving that capitalism isnt perfect either. Just throwing Whore a bone since no one seems interested in the thread.

CorporateWhore

jeffbr wrote:

I think a bunch of individuals buying, selling and trading determine value.

Exactly.

If I was selling cookies, I wouldn't add up the price of the flour, chocolate, eggs, and labor that I put into it in order to determine the price. I'd gauge what other cookies sell for and I'd price them accordingly. If I couldn't make a profit on the cookies, I'd quit selling them.

It doesn't matter how much work you put into the good or service you provide, in the end. It only matters how much people will pay for it. This is why markets will always be more efficient than command economies.

CorporateWhore

Rushlimbo wrote:

LMAO ! I never said I favored marxism, silly man ! I was just proving that capitalism isnt perfect either. Just throwing Whore a bone since no one seems interested in the thread.

Capitalism isn't perfect but it's far superior to Marxism, which is the subject of this thread. Therefore, you should talk about Marxism.

Rushlimbo

CorporateWhore wrote:

This thread isn't about Capitalism, like I said.

I could defend Capitalism til I'm blue in the face because it's better than Marxism. It was better in 1776 when globalisation wasn't around and it's better now!

People like to complain about our system but when you note that their alternatives are plainly false, they can't stop complaining.

Come up with something better! Otherwise, don't complain.

Seems as though you are shouting praises from the rooftop just hoping someone will argue for Marxism/communism. I dont think it will happen.

catefrances

CorporateWhore wrote:

This thread isn't about Capitalism, like I said.

I could defend Capitalism til I'm blue in the face because it's better than Marxism. It was better in 1776 when globalisation wasn't around and it's better now!

People like to complain about our system but when you note that their alternatives are plainly false, they can't stop complaining.

Come up with something better! Otherwise, don't complain.

i am not complaining. i was responding to your notion that poor people come to rich countries just to be a part of the capitalist system. as if that were their primary motivation. that is all.

Rushlimbo

CorporateWhore wrote:

Capitalism isn't perfect but it's far superior to Marxism, which is the subject of this thread. Therefore, you should talk about Marxism.

If you are gonna get all snippy then forget it. I was just trying to help you move this along.

jeffbr

Rushlimbo wrote:

Seems as though you are shouting praises from the rooftop just hoping someone will argue for Marxism/communism. I dont think it will happen.

He may be waiting for Shapur to join the thread. S/He was in the Stupid Americans thread extolling the virtues of communism. So I do know there is one true believer on the board.

Shapur

Throughout the civilised world the teachings of Marx evoke the utmost hostility and hatred of all bourgeois science (both official and liberal), which regards Marxism as a kind of “pernicious sect”. And no other attitude is to be expected, for there can be no “impartial” social science in a society based on class struggle. In one way or another, all official and liberal science defends wage-slavery, whereas Marxism has declared relentless war on that slavery. To expect science to be impartial in a wage-slave society is as foolishly naïve as to expect impartiality from manufacturers on the question of whether workers’ wages ought not to be increased by decreasing the profits of capital.

To the person who made the comment; "This is 2007!":

At the end of the twentieth century, humankind is not a pleasant sight. We humans have had centuries of ever-accelerating natural-scientific and technological progress. With this immeasurable advance in our ability to understand and transform the natural world, it ought to be easy to make ourselves reasonably comfortable.

Instead, humanity seems to be in the grip of some invisible, malevolent force. This uncontrollable demon impels us to tear our world apart, turning our own human productive powers against ourselves, transforming them into forces of self-destruction. Set against one another, we are reduced to a state of-utter powerlessness, mere spectators of our own actions, able neither to control nor to comprehend them. This is what makes the recent changes in the world appear so strange to us.

For reasons we are quite unable to explain, we devote a huge part of our energy and ingenuity to lying and cheating, to hurting or killing each other. Over many decades, a major part of scientific and industrial activity has been devoted to fabricating the means to kill, torture and maim human beings. They functioned with great efficiency: millions perished miserably in world wars and death camps. After the Holocaust

If you think that the above is unfair. If you are forced to work for a capitalist, sell your labor to him, give your life to him for a paycheck (and a low one at that!), and have had enough of it, and know that you deserve to be paid more, that you deserve to be paid the full value of your labor instead of a portion of it, then you might be interested in Marxism, since it is a theory based on your liberation as a worker.

If you are a capitalist, or a person benefiting from the current capitalist system, you're hostile towards Marxism.

That's basically it, and I have nothing more to add to this thread.

Good-day everyone

Rushlimbo

jeffbr wrote:

He may be waiting for Shapur to join the thread. S/He was in the Stupid Americans thread extolling the virtues of communism. So I do know there is one true believer on the board.

Ah, I see.

musicismylife78

once you accept that capitalism-imperialism-and racism are all one, and all exist in this current system, marxism becomes the only logical solution to the death culture.

There is no good capitalism. Inherent in capitalism is a desire to rule, conquer, hate, opress and exploit. This wont be altered by voting in a Dem. This wont be altered by wanting "reform".

The only way we as humans and as a species and world will survive is by dismantling the system and installing something way more humane.

jeffbr

Shapur wrote:

...and know that you deservea to be paid more, that you deserve to be paid the full value of your labor instead of a portion of it...

I guess this is the crux, right? Who determines that value? If you determine your value, then the only thing left for you is to find the employer who agrees with your valuation, start a business yourself, or hope for a system that coerces someone to recognize that value through threat of force.

Shapur wrote:

If you are a capitalist, or a person benefiting from the current capitalist system, you're hostile towards Marxism.

I would only be hostile toward marxism if it were a threat to my freedom. Right now, it is simply an interesting (and untenable) theory to be discussed on a message board, with ultimately little consequence to me.

I wish you a good day as well.

CorporateWhore

Shapur wrote:

If you think that the above is unfair. If you are forced to work for a capitalist, sell your labor to him, give your life to him for a paycheck (and a low one at that!), and have had enough of it, and know that you deserve to be paid more, that you deserve to be paid the full value of your labor instead of a portion of it, then you might be interested in Marxism, since it is a theory based on your liberation as a worker.

Clearly you won't listen to reason. Who determines the price of your labor? The capitalist or the person buying from the capitalist? How much should the worker expect to be paid? Why?

It is that narrow-minded ignorance that causes Marxism to be such a degenerative disease.

Kann

jeffbr wrote:

i_am_a_wishlist wrote:

Socialism/Marxism etc was what Russia needed in the late 19th and early 20th century.

I don't think there's ever a time when an individual needs to give up freedom and liberty for the good of the state.

I think he was really talking about 19th century Russia, you know, "tzardom", no liberties, no freedom.

jeffbr wrote:

Seems like an endorsement for getting rid of command economies in poor countries. Time to work, innovate, manufacture, invent, create, trade.

Have you ever been to a 3rd world country? Or do you just pretend to be ignorant about it? Some of these countries can't even offer healthy water to their inhabitants, I doubt very much they feel like inventing and innovating for now. The others (Brazil or China for example) are and we're all eager to see where that will lead.

CorporateWhore wrote:

If I was selling cookies, I wouldn't add up the price of the flour, chocolate, eggs, and labor that I put into it in order to determine the price. I'd gauge what other cookies sell for and I'd price them accordingly. If I couldn't make a profit on the cookies, I'd quit selling them.

This is how capitalism works in theory. Marxism in theory is I produce flour, you produce chocolate, jeff produces eggs and Rush makes the cookies and we all get one. Wich is a good deal too.
In reality in capitalism you would drop the price of your cookies to get rid of competition before buying back other cookies and sellers, till you own the block like a true conqueror you are. And then throwing in the trash unsold cookies, just in front of homeless people, well, because you can.
And in reality in marxism everyone gets a quarter or no cooky, and gets the right to shut up about it.

I'm not sure anyone can honestly defend marxism today, not after the 20th century we witnessed. But defending capitalism today is not really something I respect. Not with what you can see and read and learn worldwide.
I think most people to come here won't defend marxism, I think what you are mistaking for marxist are just people waiting (and willing to help I guess) for the capitalist system to collapse.

Ho, and because I guess you meant your thread to help debate marxism in the us :
you are right poor people in the us are richer and have more rights than before in history. But what about the upper classes? Do they have more rights? Are they richer? How much more than the poor? When you compare the evolution of a social class you have to compare it to the evolution of other social classes. I don't think your poor or your lower middle class are really happy about "[making] VASTLY more than anyone in one of the third world countries you are referring to". I think like any poor/low middle class they don't really appreciate to see the gap between poor/filthy rich growing.

edit: good day to you!
I'm not complaining, I like my lifestyle. I just don't like what is happening outside of my home.

catefrances

CorporateWhore wrote:

So you essentially support anarchism?

i didn't say that. though i do have an aversion to authority.