The Racial Divide in the Michael Vick Case

CorporateWhore

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=dw-vickhearing072607&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

"Like Smith, almost all of the people supporting Vick or holding signs pleading for "due process" and "innocence until proven guilty" were African American.

On the other side was an emotional, angry, passionate anti-Vick group that was overwhelmingly white."

---

If Vick were white, we all know he would have no support. The blacks supporting him are just as racist as any klansman because they support him for no other reason than that he is black. Someone needs to say it. It should not be okay for blacks to be racists either.

markymark550

Well, I guess I'm in the minority then because I'd be one of the few white people holding up a due process sign.

That's not to say that I think he's 100% innocent. I just think we need to let the judicial system take it's course, while a lot of others would just like to go ahead and execute him now.

CorporateWhore

markymark550 wrote:

Well, I guess I'm in the minority then because I'd be one of the few white people holding up a due process sign.

That's not to say that I think he's 100% innocent. I just think we need to let the judicial system take it's course, while a lot of others would just like to go ahead and execute him now.

Obviously he deserves due process and he'll get it. Whites and blacks agree on that.

The blacks were just supporting him because he's black. If he had been white, then YOU would've been the only one out there holding up a "Due Process" sign.

markymark550

CorporateWhore wrote:

Obviously he deserves due process and he'll get it. Whites and blacks agree on that.

The blacks were just supporting him because he's black. If he had been white, then YOU would've been the only one out there holding up a "Due Process" sign.

Well, then I would have been by myself, because I definitely wouldn't be supporting him based on race.

But not everybody agrees that he deserves due process. There are lots of people who would rather just do to him what he did to those dogs than "waste money on a trial".

tybird

The Vick case has touched a raw nerve with many Americans because of our "pet" culture........many view pets as part of their families, thus people accused of such brutal mistreatment of these animals are viewed in the same vein as a killer of children. There have been angry calls for Vick's head and a lot of hatred thrown in his direction.

However, the organizations that deal directly with Michael Vick have given him due process. He is still being paid by the Atlanta Falcons......he still has a contract with Nike (yes, it is suspended but still valid). The National Football League has not suspended him or fined him as of yet. These groups have taken legal actions that protect them while not trampling on Vick's rights as an American citizen. The absence of Vick from training camp is good for both him and the team.

Pacomc79

I'm probably not holding out a due process sign for anyone but I hope Vick gets his due process and a fair trial.

I'd feel the same if it were Brett Farve.

I think the differences you are talking about are deep rooted and cultural. Even if it turns out this guy is a screw up, because of history, they are desiring to give him the benifit of the doubt. It's just different with black people because not all but many desire a sense of toegetherness what happens to one happens to all. Others will say hoodlums are hoodlums but I'd still like to see the guy get a fair trial, and honestly, if he didn't have tattoos and corn rows (he pledged not to cut his hair until they went to the Super Bowl not really advisable for people on bad teams with terrible coaches) he wouldn't be as scary to the average white boring accountant guy from the burbs. If this were Brett Farve on trial, I guarentee you the coverage would be at least slightly different, and everyone from John Madden on would come out to defend their boy at least on television, just like they are here with Mike Vick.

If he's found guilty, there will still be a few that are unabashed huggers, but the majority of people will then write him off.

If TT turns state today and takes the deal, it's moot because he'll be cut and done for good before September 1st.

CorporateWhore

Pacomc79 wrote:

It's just different with black people because not all but many desire a sense of toegetherness what happens to one happens to all.

I agree with most of what you said except for this.

If that's not good enough for white people than it's not good enough for black people.

"It's just different with white people because not all but many desire a sense of togetherness what happens to one happens to all."

If blacks are equal to whites, then there is no need for them to collectivize. No one is discriminating against them anymore. In fact, they're discriminating FOR them.

Yellow Bedwetter

How Corporate are you, and how much of a whore are you?
haha sorry

Pacomc79

CorporateWhore wrote:

I agree with most of what you said except for this.

If that's not good enough for white people than it's not good enough for black people.

"It's just different with white people because not all but many desire a sense of togetherness what happens to one happens to all."

If blacks are equal to whites, then there is no need for them to collectivize. No one is discriminating against them anymore. In fact, they're discriminating FOR them.

Yes I agree, but it's because of history that they seek safety in numbers. Remember slavery was replaced with share cropping which dealt with both poor whites and blacks but it could be perceived as worse than slavery... that lead to more predjudice and jim crow laws etc. etc. Many of the current young peoples parents lived through the civil rights movement so there is that anger and then in general because of the way our society is constructed many young black people grow up with a chip on thier shoulders whether it's simply a perception of being slighted or actually warrented. Many of the white young people in our generation are no longer focused so much on race, but because of all the negative history, struggles and frustration, many young black people still are.

It's by no means general, small pockets all over, but I understand, if you grow up in the ghetto, where rich white people buy all the season tickets, but they build the stadium in the hood, and then the same people turn on the guy who looks like you that gave you hope that you could someday be a QB in the NFL. I can understand why even if you think this guy may be guilty you would want to make damn sure, before you lose another hero to his stupid decisions. It's just tremendously unfortunate MV may well be a bad guy.

soulsinging

Pacomc79 wrote:

Yes I agree, but it's because of history that they seek safety in numbers. Remember slavery was replaced with share cropping which dealt with both poor whites and blacks but it could be perceived as worse than slavery... that lead to more predjudice and jim crow laws etc. etc. Many of the current young peoples parents lived through the civil rights movement so there is that anger and then in general because of the way our society is constructed many young black people grow up with a chip on thier shoulders whether it's simply a perception of being slighted or actually warrented. Many of the white young people in our generation are no longer focused so much on race, but because of all the negative history, struggles and frustration, many young black people still are.

It's by no means general, small pockets all over, but I understand, if you grow up in the ghetto, where rich white people buy all the season tickets, but they build the stadium in the hood, and then the same people turn on the guy who looks like you that gave you hope that you could someday be a QB in the NFL. I can understand why even if you think this guy may be guilty you would want to make damn sure, before you lose another hero to his stupid decisions. It's just tremendously unfortunate MV may well be a bad guy.

i think people forget that blacks only REALLY got any semblance of equality 40 years ago. that means that all the older members of the black community grew up under jim crow, open racism, etc. the fact that they stuck some affirmative action programs into the economy over the last 20 years does not erase that memory. it takes longer than that to assauge the fear from 400 years of slavery. once this generation of african-americans passes on (along with all the white baby boomers, thank god), i think some of this will start to fade. but these are people who grew up learning to view whitey as suspect and rightly so. that doesn't go away so quick. we can say it isn't like that any more and we might be right, but that doesn't mean they're ready to believe it yet becos they've been lied to before. it will take some time. show some patience.

CorporateWhore

soulsinging wrote:

it takes longer than that to assauge the fear from 400 years of slavery.

Huh? This generation of blacks has never been discriminated against by the government. Are you saying they have had fear of slavery emblazened in their genetic code and the only remedy is time?

Excuses. Black leaders are full of them, especially Jesse Jackson. 400 years of slavery cannot keep you down if you yourself have never been enslaved. The Irish were essentially enslaved by the English for hundreds of years. I'm not still complaining about it. Why? Irish people were white. People expect more of them.

People should expect an equal amount from American blacks.

soulsinging

CorporateWhore wrote:

Huh? This generation of blacks has never been discriminated against by the government.

SAY WHAT??? yuo not learn math in that redneck school? or was it the devil's magic in your evangelical training camp? the government HAS discriminated against blacks of this generation. 40 years ago it was 1967... that means any black over the age of 45 watched what was happening in alabama on tv growing up or lived through jim crow. any of them over 60 probably lived through it. they tell their kids and grandkids about what it was like being hosed down in alabama. once they die, this anger will start to fade. you're right, things are not stacked against them anymore, but it takes longer to forgive.

two examples. a wife get the shit beat out of her by her husband. he says he's sorry and she comes back. he does it again, then says he sorry again and she comes back. then he beats the shit out of her again. then he swears he has changed... think she's going to believe it? she might go back, but she's going to be scared and she sure as hell isn't going to trust him... it's going to take a while.

or if you have an alcoholic friend who has sworn 10-15 times he's quitting only to end up wasted again and hitting you up for money. you going to believe him the next time he says he's done? you might still help him out, but you're going to have your doubts about his commitment and it's going to take a long time and a lot of positive action to make you believe he truly has.

this is how it is to blacks... you're not slaves, just sharecroppers. you can vote, but only if your grandad could. you're equal, but only in separate facilities. etc etc. now we say "look, we put in affirmative action and we're not racist anymore, stop acting like we are." i dont blame them for having their doubts. they'd be fucking stupid not to be skeptical.

like i said, once the older generation of blacks who lived through the 60s passes on, this will cease being an issue. all the leaders you're bitching about are a direct product of that era... they grew up watching white guys blast negroes with firehoses. that's gonna leave an impression on a little kid. but shit man, nobody in the black community listens to jesse jackson anymore... it's only the whites who do. relax. this brand of racial politics is on its last legs. you give it another 20-30 years and we won't have this discussion anymore. but i know that's not what you want... you want it to continue on becos it justifies you ranting about lazy no-good niggers.

CorporateWhore

soulsinging wrote:

SAY WHAT??? yuo not learn math in that redneck school? or was it the devil's magic in your evangelical training camp? the government HAS discriminated against blacks of this generation. 40 years ago it was 1967... that means any black over the age of 45 watched what was happening in alabama on tv growing up or lived through jim crow. any of them over 60 probably lived through it. they tell their kids and grandkids about what it was like being hosed down in alabama. once they die, this anger will start to fade. you're right, things are not stacked against them anymore, but it takes longer to forgive.

two examples. a wife get the shit beat out of her by her husband. he says he's sorry and she comes back. he does it again, then says he sorry again and she comes back. then he beats the shit out of her again. then he swears he has changed... think she's going to believe it? she might go back, but she's going to be scared and she sure as hell isn't going to trust him... it's going to take a while.

or if you have an alcoholic friend who has sworn 10-15 times he's quitting only to end up wasted again and hitting you up for money. you going to believe him the next time he says he's done? you might still help him out, but you're going to have your doubts about his commitment and it's going to take a long time and a lot of positive action to make you believe he truly has.

this is how it is to blacks... you're not slaves, just sharecroppers. you can vote, but only if your grandad could. you're equal, but only in separate facilities. etc etc. now we say "look, we put in affirmative action and we're not racist anymore, stop acting like we are." i dont blame them for having their doubts. they'd be fucking stupid not to be skeptical.

like i said, once the older generation of blacks who lived through the 60s passes on, this will cease being an issue. all the leaders you're bitching about are a direct product of that era... they grew up watching white guys blast negroes with firehoses. that's gonna leave an impression on a little kid. but shit man, nobody in the black community listens to jesse jackson anymore... it's only the whites who do. relax. this brand of racial politics is on its last legs. you give it another 20-30 years and we won't have this discussion anymore. but i know that's not what you want... you want it to continue on becos it justifies you ranting about lazy no-good niggers.

I was referring to Generation Y. I would argue Generation X wasn't even discriminated against.

soulsinging

CorporateWhore wrote:

I was referring to Generation Y. I would argue Generation X wasn't even discriminated against.

but generation y grew up hearing grandpa talk about watching his peers beaten on the streets, attacked by dogs, or hosed down by white people for trying to go to school. blacks from generation x lived through a time when cops could gun down their unarmed black peers in the street in broad daylight and not even earn a suspension. it has not been THAT long. a few minority college scholarships and job preference does not make up for that.

even now, in my current job, i see black families broken into pieces for doing the same things white families go unpunished for... becos the whites have the decency to do it more quietly. there is still work to do. yeah, this vick thing has clear racial divisions, but i cannot say im surprised. im also patient though. in another 30 years, this will nto be an issue anymore. in the meantime, i don't feel like dismissing their concerns. let them vent it and get it out of their system. i look at it as growing pains... they've got a lot of pain and resentment, some of it holdovers from racism, some of it of their own making. but it will pass and my plan in the meantime is to hear them out patiently, and then do what is right.

CorporateWhore

soulsinging wrote:

but generation y grew up hearing grandpa talk about watching his peers beaten on the streets, attacked by dogs, or hosed down by white people for trying to go to school. blacks from generation x lived through a time when cops could gun down their unarmed black peers in the street in broad daylight and not even earn a suspension. it has not been THAT long. a few minority college scholarships and job preference does not make up for that.

even now, in my current job, i see black families broken into pieces for doing the same things white families go unpunished for... becos the whites have the decency to do it more quietly. there is still work to do. yeah, this vick thing has clear racial divisions, but i cannot say im surprised. im also patient though. in another 30 years, this will nto be an issue anymore. in the meantime, i don't feel like dismissing their concerns. let them vent it and get it out of their system. i look at it as growing pains... they've got a lot of pain and resentment, some of it holdovers from racism, some of it of their own making. but it will pass and my plan in the meantime is to hear them out patiently, and then do what is right.

The Great Society and affirmative action by LBJ were supposed to fix all of this. 25 years later it hasn't done shit. They're worse off.

Liberals think they can change people's nature simply by spending more on welfare and entitlements. Maybe a lot of black people don't want to succeed?

soulsinging

CorporateWhore wrote:

The Great Society and affirmative action by LBJ were supposed to fix all of this. 25 years later it hasn't done shit. They're worse off.

Liberals think they can change people's nature simply by spending more on welfare and entitlements. Maybe a lot of black people don't want to succeed?

hehehehe. i love how unashamed you are to completely contradict yourself. 2 posts ago it was blacks have it just fine today and there are no problems and they were just whining, now you're saying they're worse off now than they were in the 60s.

dont get me started on LBJ. he was one of the worst presidents we ever had and the great society has been a colossal failure. tell me where in here i suggested the answer here was more welfare? hell, since when does welfare have anything to do with racism? the civil rights act LBJ put into effect DID help make racism unacceptable. his social programs were a total disaster though. so it was a mixed bag. we lost a big battle but won the war. and now it will take some time to adjust.

i dont for a minute believe blacks do not want to succeed. i do, however, think many have just flat out given up, and many more have a different definition of success than you do. it's sad, but finishing high school and staying out of prison is a success story in many communities. those are pretty modest ambitions, but it's the best many of them feel they can hope for. that's changing slowly, but like i said, it will take time. patience dude.

Staceb10

The black community wouldn't give a shit if it was a white football star out there being publicly crucified over this issue. The majority of the people aren't standing behind Vick because of "justice". They are standing behind him because he's a black football star. Everyone deserves the "innocent until proven guilty" bit but how many people actually get it with the media? Did Scott Peterson not get slammed by the media and labeled a murderer by the public before his trial? He wasn't even a celebrity! We'll see what the protestors have to say if Vick is found guilty.

godpt3

these are the same widgets that supported OJ. And the only reason is that they're both successful and black.


Go ahead, tell me the "N" word doesn't apply here.

OneLove

CorporateWhore wrote:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=dw-vickhearing072607&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

"Like Smith, almost all of the people supporting Vick or holding signs pleading for "due process" and "innocence until proven guilty" were African American.

On the other side was an emotional, angry, passionate anti-Vick group that was overwhelmingly white."

---

If Vick were white, we all know he would have no support. The blacks supporting him are just as racist as any klansman because they support him for no other reason than that he is black. Someone needs to say it. It should not be okay for blacks to be racists either.

Thank you, I agree 100%. It is certainly worthy of discussion. I think its a sad testiment to race relations in this country.... much the same way that some african american people celebrated the OJ verdict, not because they felt he was innocent, but because they felt he got away with it.

Yes, there needs to be more healing... but racism is racism no matter who is the culprit. I saw a someone on a news program discussing "reverse racism" the other day, refering to african americans who discriminate against whites.... now, explain to me why anyone would call that reverse racism?

Abuskedti

CorporateWhore wrote:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=dw-vickhearing072607&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

"Like Smith, almost all of the people supporting Vick or holding signs pleading for "due process" and "innocence until proven guilty" were African American.

On the other side was an emotional, angry, passionate anti-Vick group that was overwhelmingly white."

---

If Vick were white, we all know he would have no support. The blacks supporting him are just as racist as any klansman because they support him for no other reason than that he is black. Someone needs to say it. It should not be okay for blacks to be racists either.

he he.. you liken the support of the presumption of innocence with the racial torture and murder of klansman?

he he.. do you consider yourself a racist? a murderer?

culot4

In the court of public opinion the guy is a creep, and I would think the same thing if it were Peyton Manning who was indicted. They have the dead dogs, they hauled away truckloads of dog fighting equipment, and they have witnesses who are cutting deals to give up Vick. This is very serious, and nobody is going to be the fall guy for Vick. He'll get his due process, he'll buy his way out of prison, and he'll always be thought of as guilty even if it is never proven. Even if Vick is a black guy he has the money to buy himself out of jail like a white guy.

Brain of mJ

For more Michael Vick fun check out a Pro-Vick rally held in town last week:
http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sports/falcons/stories/2007/07/29/0730vick.html

And now one of the most respected black organizations in the country wants to honor Vick at their 50th anniversary gala, headlined by a visit from Obama:

http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/atlanta/stories/2007/08/03/vicksclc_0804.html

laDybiRdpEnmAn

anyone who treats an animal inhumanly (sp?) has got some serious fuckin issues... futhermore, to abuse animals in the manner that this "man" did, this guy should be behind bars for the rest of his life. he can do no good to society. worthless piece of shit. given that he has money, i doubt he will do much time...i just pray for a vigilante out there somewhere.

kenny olav

soulsinging wrote:

i think people forget that blacks only REALLY got any semblance of equality 40 years ago. that means that all the older members of the black community grew up under jim crow, open racism, etc. the fact that they stuck some affirmative action programs into the economy over the last 20 years does not erase that memory. it takes longer than that to assauge the fear from 400 years of slavery. once this generation of african-americans passes on (along with all the white baby boomers, thank god), i think some of this will start to fade. but these are people who grew up learning to view whitey as suspect and rightly so. that doesn't go away so quick. we can say it isn't like that any more and we might be right, but that doesn't mean they're ready to believe it yet becos they've been lied to before. it will take some time. show some patience.

i definately see the logic in that. the generational divide is almost painfully obvious. all of my friends and co-workers (people my age) who are black don't share the same mistrust of authority (presumably White authority).... they see that things are changing, and fairly rapidly... at least in some areas.

Abuskedti

soulsinging wrote:

i think people forget that blacks only REALLY got any semblance of equality 40 years ago. that means that all the older members of the black community grew up under jim crow, open racism, etc. the fact that they stuck some affirmative action programs into the economy over the last 20 years does not erase that memory. it takes longer than that to assauge the fear from 400 years of slavery. once this generation of african-americans passes on (along with all the white baby boomers, thank god), i think some of this will start to fade. but these are people who grew up learning to view whitey as suspect and rightly so. that doesn't go away so quick. we can say it isn't like that any more and we might be right, but that doesn't mean they're ready to believe it yet becos they've been lied to before. it will take some time. show some patience.

indeed...

Juberoo

Correct me if I'm wrong...but he did release an appology via his spokesperson. So all these people who are "supporting" him are doing so only out of racism or lack of morals. Where I live, dog fighting is prevalent among the black communities. Pit bulls are in just about every other yard. It's disgusting. So it doesn't suprise me that the blacks are rallying to cry racism. They know its true....dog fighting is a part of their community culture. It is being threatened (rightly so) and they are going to fight against it.

Juberoo

laDybiRdpEnmAn wrote:

anyone who treats an animal inhumanly (sp?) has got some serious fuckin issues... futhermore, to abuse animals in the manner that this "man" did, this guy should be behind bars for the rest of his life. he can do no good to society. worthless piece of shit. given that he has money, i doubt he will do much time...i just pray for a vigilante out there somewhere.

Maybe he could be put in a ring with some of the dogs to .... ahem....discuss the issue.