Human-Animal Hybrids

TrixieCat

I was just listening to the UK news and heard about a vote they had today.
I am so mixed on this topic. Part of me is like AWESOME!! we can save lives here.
And part of me (not in a religious way) is like that is sickening....and maybe messing with nature a bit too much.
Here is a link:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/1988846/MPs-vote-against-human-animal-hybrid-embryo-ban.html

What do you think???
I am genuinely interested in everyone's views.

Rhinocerous Surprise

I think it's an important area to investigate. If it helps cure diseases like Alzheimer's or Parkinson's or cystic fibrosis, it will be the greatest breakthrough of this young century. If it doesn't, it's better to know that for sure, than hold off because it's a new and scary avenue to be going down. No religious organisation should have any say in the government's handling of this - if it leads to a major breakthrough in the prevention of major diseases, does anyone think religious views will stop the majority of people from embracing it?

TrixieCat

But it seems to me that these hybrids are only available to save the children of those the cells were harvested from, or am I wrong here.
We already have cord blood banking here, which is available to the wealthy. I imagine it is the same for the hybrids.
I guess if you are wealthy, you have a chance to save your child, at least in my country...

Rhinocerous Surprise

From the link you posted, it seemed to me like they'd use the hybrid embryos to generate tissue for a particular disease, rather than a particular patient, but I can't claim to be sure. The most likely thing is they'll treat the donor, and if all goes well, look into ways of producing the tissue on a larger scale. Baby steps, but important ones.

Collin

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

I think it's an important area to investigate. If it helps cure diseases like Alzheimer's or Parkinson's or cystic fibrosis, it will be the greatest breakthrough of this young century. If it doesn't, it's better to know that for sure, than hold off because it's a new and scary avenue to be going down. No religious organisation should have any say in the government's handling of this - if it leads to a major breakthrough in the prevention of major diseases, does anyone think religious views will stop the majority of people from embracing it?

I agree.

I'm sure no one would force religious people to get this sort of treatment. But I wonder how many would change their views if they get Parkinson's or Alzheimer's and this is the only 'cure'.

Rhinocerous Surprise

Collin wrote:

I agree.

I'm sure no one would force religious people to get this sort of treatment. But I wonder how many would change their views if they get Parkinson's or Alzheimer's and this is the only 'cure'.

More to the point, how many of them would use the word "miracle" at least once during the treatment?

Cosmo

How about flying, fire breathing rattlesnakes with bullet proof scales and
Joan Rivers' head? Then, we semnd them to the Middle East and scare the crap out of them. Wouldn't that be funny?

Rhinocerous Surprise

Cosmo wrote:

How about flying, fire breathing rattlesnakes with bullet proof scales and
Joan Rivers' head? Then, we semnd them to the Middle East and scare the crap out of them. Wouldn't that be funny?

Apart from the flying part, isn't that just Joan Rivers?

FinsburyParkCarrots

They've been about for years in this country. They're called Millwall supporters.

Jeanie

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

Apart from the flying part, isn't that just Joan Rivers?

LMAO!!! Too, too funny!!!

As to the original topic, well I have been to several public lectures regarding stem cell research and read endless articles and I can understand that if people are only reading the occasional media report it can be somewhat worrying. Given that most of these things have been stalled or completely thrown off course by the rampant ravings of the religious right for such a long time now, it stands to reason that the media will portray it in highly emotive and dramatic terms with all kinds of dire warnings for mankind. :rolleyes:

The benefits of this technology far outweigh the trumped up moral concerns of the holy rollers who are probably more concerned that they're losing their grip more than anything.

I say bring it on. I have much more faith in the scientists than I do in politicians and the church anyway.

Rhinocerous Surprise

Jeanie wrote:

LMAO!!! : D Too, too funny!!!

As to the original topic, well I have been to several public lectures regarding stem cell research and read endless articles and I can understand that if people are only reading the occasional media report it can be somewhat worrying. Given that most of these things have been stalled or completely thrown off course by the rampant ravings of the religious right for such a long time now, it stands to reason that the media will portray it in highly emotive and dramatic terms with all kinds of dire warnings for mankind. :rolleyes:

The benefits of this technology far outweigh the trumped up moral concerns of the holy rollers who are probably more concerned that they're losing their grip more than anything.

I say bring it on. I have much more faith in the scientists than I do in politicians and the church anyway.

Exactly - the scientists who studied this for years on end have been shouted down by people who couldn't tell a stem cell from a prison cell for far too long. It's about time sense prevailed.

Cosmo

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

Apart from the flying part, isn't that just Joan Rivers?

...
Yeah... that is true, huh? We should send Joan Rivers to the Middle East to scare the crap out of them. I know i always get the heebie jeebies when her death mask face pops up on the T.V. screen.
...
So, maybe we can pick up where the Nazis and Soviets left off... Gorilla/Man Soldiers.
...
Personally... i want the reflexes of a cat so I scould be the greatest shortstop of all time. The only downside would be my crapping in the basepaths... i guess.

Jeanie

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

Exactly - the scientists who studied this for years on end have been shouted down by people who couldn't tell a stem cell from a prison cell for far too long. It's about time sense prevailed.

Well me thinks the times they are a changin'! FINALLY!!! Once George is ousted, hopefully with a reasonable successor, we'll see some sense prevail, just as we have here in Oz and I think England is experiencing now. The Axis of the Willing :rolleyes: really has a lot to answer for.

Now if we can just reverse the ridiculous propaganda that's been allowed to prevail for far too long and get people discussing this amazing science hopefully people will finally get the correct information and be able to make informed decisions and eventually science can get on and do the necessary research and make the discoveries and we can wipe out these hideous diseases for good.

Rhinocerous Surprise

Jeanie wrote:

Well me thinks the times they are a changin'! : D FINALLY!!! : ) Once George is ousted, hopefully with a reasonable successor, we'll see some sense prevail, just as we have here in Oz and I think England is experiencing now. The Axis of the Willing :rolleyes: really has a lot to answer for.

Now if we can just reverse the ridiculous propaganda that's been allowed to prevail for far too long and get people discussing this amazing science hopefully people will finally get the correct information and be able to make informed decisions and eventually science can get on and do the necessary research and make the discoveries and we can wipe out these hideous diseases for good.

Who'da thunk Gordon Brown would be responsible for this kinda progress? :eek:

Like you, I just really hope most people don't stigmatise this as, to quote whatever priesty guy was in the article, "Frankenstein science". It's not nearly that awesome. But it's still pretty awesome.

prljmngrl

My initial response is, what types of diseases is this going to propagate? So they might find a cure for something, what will the side effect be? Could it be worse than the original disease? Long term effects are obviously not known yet. Sorry but my opinion is no. This is a huge wrong as far as nature and science are concerned. Animals and humans don't interspeciate naturally, this is definitely crossing a line. There has to be a better way.

Rhinocerous Surprise

prljmngrl wrote:

My initial response is, what types of diseases is this going to propagate? So they might find a cure for something, what will the side effect be? Could it be worse than the original disease? Long term effects are obviously not known yet. Sorry but my opinion is no. This is a huge wrong as far as nature and science are concerned. Animals and humans don't interspeciate naturally, this is definitely crossing a line. There has to be a better way.

Obviously the long term effects are unknown for now - they just got permission to start testing. But to disclude such a huge avenue of scientific exploration on the basis that it could have bad side effects is short-sighted. We're still years away from any kind of breakthrough worth speaking of, but just because it's new and apparently scary doesn't mean it's bad.

Jeanie

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

Who'da thunk Gordon Brown would be responsible for this kinda progress? : eek:

Like you, I just really hope most people don't stigmatise this as, to quote whatever priesty guy was in the article, "Frankenstein science". It's not nearly that awesome. But it's still pretty awesome.

At one public lecture I got to chat with one of the scientists whose field is stem cells at Monash and he really was a fascinating man, very humane and incredibly emotionally intelligent. He was able to explain a lot of things in lay man's terms and he pretty much covered all of my concerns. It's a shame that more people aren't able to attend his lectures. Or public lectures on the issue in general. You really gain no insight at all from the crap in the media these days. It's all about what Rupert thinks and will allow the rest of us to think. :rolleyes:

I think the great thing that's happening now is FINALLY instead of trying to scare everyone off with smoke and mirrors because it doesn't fit the religious agenda, we are now seeing people at least voting to investigate, which is as it should be. People were like this 20 years ago when it came to IVF and seemingly we didn't end up with an influx of two headed winged kiddies from that now did we?

TrixieCat

prljmngrl wrote:

My initial response is, what types of diseases is this going to propagate? So they might find a cure for something, what will the side effect be? Could it be worse than the original disease? Long term effects are obviously not known yet. Sorry but my opinion is no. This is a huge wrong as far as nature and science are concerned. Animals and humans don't interspeciate naturally, this is definitely crossing a line. There has to be a better way.

I wish their were a better way too but seems like this is all we are coming up with. Again, my issue isnt with the whole science v religion debate. It just seems we are tinkering with the natural order. Like we are messing with something maybe we shouldnt. I dont know.

Sorry, my apostrophe isnt working properly.

decides2dream

Jeanie wrote:

As to the original topic, well I have been to several public lectures regarding stem cell research and read endless articles and I can understand that if people are only reading the occasional media report it can be somewhat worrying. Given that most of these things have been stalled or completely thrown off course by the rampant ravings of the religious right for such a long time now, it stands to reason that the media will portray it in highly emotive and dramatic terms with all kinds of dire warnings for mankind. :rolleyes:

The benefits of this technology far outweigh the trumped up moral concerns of the holy rollers who are probably more concerned that they're losing their grip more than anything.

I say bring it on. I have much more faith in the scientists than I do in politicians and the church anyway.

you really summed up my thoughts well. so thank you jeanie. i agree. there are *lines* of course...lines we as a culture/society/part of this world need to consider before venturing over the path, but i don't think we are there yet. of course, just my highly subjective/personal opinion there. i like to think the collective *we*...and most especially the scientists of the world, will always work towards the greater good, and not trod over the earth/humanity/life in the pursuit of cold, hard science alone...just because we can. right now, i simply see a world of discovery ahead...and hopefully a lot of promising things for the future...

Rhinocerous Surprise

TrixieCat wrote:

I wish their were a better way too but seems like this is all we are coming up with. Again, my issue isnt with the whole science v religion debate. It just seems we are tinkering with the natural order. Like we are messing with something maybe we shouldnt. I dont know.

Sorry, my apostrophe isnt working properly.

My one point about this: if this research ends up giving us some sort of breakthrough in the treatment of the diseases mentioned... will people still wonder if it's messing with the natural order? Or will they wonder why we didn't do something about it sooner?

TrixieCat

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

My one point about this: if this research ends up giving us some sort of breakthrough in the treatment of the diseases mentioned... will people still wonder if it's messing with the natural order? Or will they wonder why we didn't do something about it sooner?

Depending on what happens, that will give you your answer.
Hindsight is 20/20.
If it creates some weird, abnormal beings or is totally disasterous, then the religious side will have been right. If it turns out to be a miracle, the side of science prevails. One side loses I think.

Rhinocerous Surprise

TrixieCat wrote:

Depending on what happens, that will give you your answer.
Hindsight is 20/20.
If it creates some weird, abnormal beings or is totally disasterous, then the religious side will have been right. If it turns out to be a miracle, the side of science prevails. One side loses I think.

Maybe it's my stubborn atheism on show here (:p) but I'd say if it has disastrous side effects, it will be because the science was flawed, not because we messed with "God's laws". But I understand that's probably just a perspective thing.

Jeanie

TrixieCat wrote:

Depending on what happens, that will give you your answer.
Hindsight is 20/20.
If it creates some weird, abnormal beings or is totally disasterous, then the religious side will have been right. If it turns out to be a miracle, the side of science prevails. One side loses I think.

I agree Trix that hindsight is 20/20 but this weird abnormal beings business is part of the misinformation that's been spread around for far too long to slow this kind of science down. Once the stem cells are extracted the embryos are destroyed and the scientists are under strict checks and laws that from an ethical sense would bar this kind of thing from happening. Not to mention that so many of them have no desire to be responsible for the creation of weird hybrid creatures anyway. I don't really see it as one side loses and the other wins, more like this will benefit all and it's really only a matter of ironing out any issues to make sure that the technology isn't abused.
And yes like anything I'm sure it will have its times when it is open to abuse but I really think we have to look at the greater good here. There are people living today because they have animal parts transplanted and there are certainly more of those kinds of things slated to happen. Are those people now some weird kind of animal human hybrid or simply sick people that have been given a second chance?
I'm curious to know, seeing as it obviously bothers you and fair enough, it's a big issue, but I'm curious to know what can be done to make you more comfortable with the idea? Because I was extremely concerned about it for a long time until I started reading and attending public lectures. Now I think we should definitely move forward with this, obviously after strict controls are agreed upon by medical ethicists, which is what happens anyway. Do you think you might be more able to embrace the idea if you or a loved one would benefit from it?

TrixieCat

Well, like I said in my original post, I am confused and not yet convinced of either side.
***hates that emotions really can't be displayed here...I am better in person, at a bar )
I am genuinely interested in what people think. Instead of rehashing the same old shit about how much Bush sucks and every single American is evil. :rolleyes:

I don't know What I think about this. :(

hi jeanie!!!!!!!!!

Jeanie

decides2dream wrote:

you really summed up my thoughts well. so thank you jeanie. i agree. there are *lines* of course...lines we as a culture/society/part of this world need to consider before venturing over the path, but i don't think we are there yet. of course, just my highly subjective/personal opinion there. i like to think the collective *we*...and most especially the scientists of the world, will always work towards the greater good, and not trod over the earth/humanity/life in the pursuit of cold, hard science alone...just because we can. right now, i simply see a world of discovery ahead...and hopefully a lot of promising things for the future...

You're welcome girl, but I did it quite inadvertently!

And I agree with what you're saying but I have to add, having seen in action the kinds of checks and balances that these things go through from an ethical stand point, I am really not overly concerned. Once you start getting into medical ethics boy are there hoops that must be jumped through! There are commitees and sub commitees and drafts and think tanks and all kinds of discussions and checks even before anything happens and then there is the tweeking. Everything done must be reported back and re examined by more commitees and sub commitees and more drafts and the written up and wherever ammendments need to be made they are.

Really when one thinks about "scientific breakthroughs" right now and actually considers just how much thought and planning went into even allowing the scientist to get started and continue with their work even before they get to the breakthrough, well it's mind boggling really!

Rhinocerous Surprise

TrixieCat wrote:

Well, like I said in my original post, I am confused and not yet convinced of either side.
***hates that emotions really can't be displayed here...I am better in person, at a bar : p )
I am genuinely interested in what people think. Instead of rehashing the same old shit about how much Bush sucks and every single American is evil. :rolleyes:

I don't know What I think about this. :(

hi jeanie!!!!!!!!!

I hope you didn't think I was picking on you in my post - and I'm sure Jeanie wasn't either. I think the fact that up until now, stem cell research has been kept in the dark, without much info let out to the public about what exactly they're doing, has made people question its validity, and more importantly, its safety. Which is understandable.

But like Jeanie says, the more people learn about this important work, the more sense it makes. Rather than disturbing the natural order, or messing with what we don't understand, it's seeking to expand our understanding of these diseases and their possible treatments - it's not looking to try turning anyone into a werewolf or anything.

Jeanie

TrixieCat wrote:

Well, like I said in my original post, I am confused and not yet convinced of either side.
***hates that emotions really can't be displayed here...I am better in person, at a bar : p )
I am genuinely interested in what people think. Instead of rehashing the same old shit about how much Bush sucks and every single American is evil. : rolleyes:

I don't know What I think about this. : (

hi jeanie!!!!!!!!!

Hi Trix!!!

Would it help if you stopped looking at it as sides? It certainly helped me.
Now I think we should proceed with caution, evaluating every step of the way, but I'm extremely happy that we are no longer stalled. And I'm not "convinced" either Trix, but I do see this as something which must be pursued. If it turns out that it doesn't help or doesn't work I'd rather know that asap and I'm sure the scientists would too so they can move on. A bit like how initially there was a huge bruhaha about using embryonic stem cells and now the scientists have moved laterally and can actually make blank stem cells from a persons own stem cells.


I'll have a hunt around and see if I might find some easily understood articles on the issue, I tell you this is exactly the kind of conversation where I miss Ahnimus because he could always find really good stuff. Actually baraka is good too.

Oh and you know I don't think every single american is evil, although you got me on the Bush sucks.

hehe!! You can't seriously expect me to try to have this conversation in a bar after a few wines can you??? I'd be much more likely to drift into why Eddie is HOT with a few under me belt!

TrixieCat

I don't feel picked on by anyone.
And Jeanie knows my love for her.
I just honestly don't know.

TrixieCat

Jeanie wrote:

Hi Trix!!!

Would it help if you stopped looking at it as sides? It certainly helped me.
Now I think we should proceed with caution, evaluating every step of the way, but I'm extremely happy that we are no longer stalled. And I'm not "convinced" either Trix, but I do see this as something which must be pursued. If it turns out that it doesn't help or doesn't work I'd rather know that asap and I'm sure the scientists would too so they can move on. A bit like how initially there was a huge bruhaha about using embryonic stem cells and now the scientists have moved laterally and can actually make blank stem cells from a persons own stem cells.


I'll have a hunt around and see if I might find some easily understood articles on the issue, I tell you this is exactly the kind of conversation where I miss Ahnimus because he could always find really good stuff. Actually baraka is good too.

Oh and you know I don't think every single american is evil, although you got me on the Bush sucks.

hehe!! You can't seriously expect me to try to have this conversation in a bar after a few wines can you??? I'd be much more likely to drift into why Eddie is HOT with a few under me belt!

One issue that irks me is, Will this be govt funded and accessible to everyone? In my country, even though our healthcare is better than most, it is not affordable for everyone and actually a huge embarassment. If you have the money, great! We can help you. If not, fuck off.
As I mentioned before, we already have cord blood banking, but it is a few thousand dollars.
I guess I need to do some more reading. I just thought since it is such a big issue in the UK right at the moment that others would have opinions.
I used to be above saying ed was hot, but you know, his voice alone could melt off the panties of this girl.

Jeanie

TrixieCat wrote:

One issue that irks me is, Will this be govt funded and accessible to everyone? In my country, even though our healthcare is better than most, it is not affordable for everyone and actually a huge embarassment. If you have the money, great! We can help you. If not, fuck off.
As I mentioned before, we already have cord blood banking, but it is a few thousand dollars.
I guess I need to do some more reading. I just thought since it is such a big issue in the UK right at the moment that others would have opinions.
I used to be above saying ed was hot, but you know, his voice alone could melt off the panties of this girl.

Well I think it will be like everything Trix, once it becomes successful and the benefits become known then it filters down to the plebs. :rolleyes: But I know what you're saying, it's the kind of thing that irks me too. Cord blood banking is prohibitively expensive here too, but those issues are with healthcare in general and it's really hard for me to comment because we have such different systems in place.

It's a huge issue here too, and I would like to see a time when more people, like yourself, become involved in the discussion because I just think it's been stalled world wide for far too long for reasons I don't agree with. A bit like the abortion debate having been hijacked by middle aged men for far too long!

Well as you know I'm not into objectifying but I must confess to a wee crookedness to me halo once Ed comes into the mix. And generally I behive myself and keep the halo on straight but with a few wines????? Not so much!!!

Heineken Helen

prljmngrl wrote:

My initial response is, what types of diseases is this going to propagate? So they might find a cure for something, what will the side effect be? Could it be worse than the original disease? Long term effects are obviously not known yet. Sorry but my opinion is no. This is a huge wrong as far as nature and science are concerned. Animals and humans don't interspeciate naturally, this is definitely crossing a line. There has to be a better way.

I agree... and not from a religious point of view either... more from a 'what the fuck is happening to the world' point of view :(