here's a controversy for you all
GreenTeaDisease
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Harvard gym restriction stirs controversy
To accommodate Muslim women, university sets aside ‘no men’ time
By Bob Considine
TODAYShow.com contributor
updated 2:12 p.m. ET, Mon., March. 10, 2008
Harvard University’s trial policy of denying men use of one of its gyms for six hours a week to accommodate Muslim women has been an exercise in frustration for some students and off-campus critics.
Since Feb. 4, the Quadrangle Recreational Athletic Center at the Ivy League school has been open only to women from 8-10 a.m. Tuesdays and Thursdays and 3-5 p.m. on Mondays — allowing Muslim women, who typically cover their hair and most of their skin to follow religious and cultural code, to dress more suitably for exercising.
Hussein Ibish, executive director of the Foundation for Arab-American Leadership, said complaints that the policy is unfair are unfounded.
“It’s about expanding the range of choices,” Ibish told TODAY co-host Matt Lauer on Monday. “Women, for all kinds of reasons, don’t want to exercise in front of men. It’s a minority of women, but there are.
This modesty business sometimes comes from religion, sometimes from culture … They just don’t want to be ogled by men when they’re working out.”
Michael Smerconish, a talk show host and author of “Muzzled: From T-Ball to Terrorism — True Stories That Should Be Fiction,” countered that the rule shows “political correctness run amok again at Harvard.”
“Six individuals out of 6,000 [students] complain,” Smerconish told Lauer. “Those six had access [to the campus gyms] and Harvard’s response is to institute a discriminatory practice where now half are closed out of the gym.”
Working it out
In January, a group of six Muslim women, with the backing of the Harvard College Women’s Center, requested specified hours to utilize the gym.
The Quadrangle Athletic Center is one of three large recreational facilities on the Cambridge, Mass., campus and the main home for intramural activities. There are 12 residential houses that also have workout facilities. And the women-only hours at Quadrangle account for just six of the 70 hours the gym is open per week.
Yet there have been many student complaints and an unfavorable editorial in Harvard’s Crimson newspaper.
Other student publications across the country have also expounded on the controversial ruling.
But Robert Mitchell, communications director of Harvard’s Faculty of Arts, said many accommodations for students’ religious needs have been made in the past — including prayer areas for Hindu and Muslim students and the rescheduling of exams during religious holidays.
The policy will be re-evaluated at the end of the current semester.
Smerconish said Harvard’s decision to allow specified access to the Muslim women was a by-product of a national hysteria involving the Muslim population.
“The hysteria results in Harvard bending over for the Muslim community — something they would never do for Catholics or for Jews,” he said.
“Mr. Ibish talks about the element of ogling or looking at these women. What does that veil say about the rest of us? It says our eyes cannot be trusted because we’ll leer at those women. Let them work out like everybody else.”
Ibish angrily retorted that the Harvard’s action was nondiscriminatory.
“You can’t convince me that this is going to be an onerous discrimination of the oppressed males of Harvard,” Ibish said. “This is just a very small concession, a few hours in one gym out of many, to allow some women who want to exercise in private. Under the law, no way is this discriminatory.”
Smerconish and Ibish agreed that fair play could come in the form of a corresponding gym allowing only male-access hours. But the mutuality stopped there.
“It would never happen and you know it,” he told Ibish.
“If men wanted it, it would,” Ibish responded.
© 2007 MSNBC Interactive
URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23556551/
To accommodate Muslim women, university sets aside ‘no men’ time
By Bob Considine
TODAYShow.com contributor
updated 2:12 p.m. ET, Mon., March. 10, 2008
Harvard University’s trial policy of denying men use of one of its gyms for six hours a week to accommodate Muslim women has been an exercise in frustration for some students and off-campus critics.
Since Feb. 4, the Quadrangle Recreational Athletic Center at the Ivy League school has been open only to women from 8-10 a.m. Tuesdays and Thursdays and 3-5 p.m. on Mondays — allowing Muslim women, who typically cover their hair and most of their skin to follow religious and cultural code, to dress more suitably for exercising.
Hussein Ibish, executive director of the Foundation for Arab-American Leadership, said complaints that the policy is unfair are unfounded.
“It’s about expanding the range of choices,” Ibish told TODAY co-host Matt Lauer on Monday. “Women, for all kinds of reasons, don’t want to exercise in front of men. It’s a minority of women, but there are.
This modesty business sometimes comes from religion, sometimes from culture … They just don’t want to be ogled by men when they’re working out.”
Michael Smerconish, a talk show host and author of “Muzzled: From T-Ball to Terrorism — True Stories That Should Be Fiction,” countered that the rule shows “political correctness run amok again at Harvard.”
“Six individuals out of 6,000 [students] complain,” Smerconish told Lauer. “Those six had access [to the campus gyms] and Harvard’s response is to institute a discriminatory practice where now half are closed out of the gym.”
Working it out
In January, a group of six Muslim women, with the backing of the Harvard College Women’s Center, requested specified hours to utilize the gym.
The Quadrangle Athletic Center is one of three large recreational facilities on the Cambridge, Mass., campus and the main home for intramural activities. There are 12 residential houses that also have workout facilities. And the women-only hours at Quadrangle account for just six of the 70 hours the gym is open per week.
Yet there have been many student complaints and an unfavorable editorial in Harvard’s Crimson newspaper.
Other student publications across the country have also expounded on the controversial ruling.
But Robert Mitchell, communications director of Harvard’s Faculty of Arts, said many accommodations for students’ religious needs have been made in the past — including prayer areas for Hindu and Muslim students and the rescheduling of exams during religious holidays.
The policy will be re-evaluated at the end of the current semester.
Smerconish said Harvard’s decision to allow specified access to the Muslim women was a by-product of a national hysteria involving the Muslim population.
“The hysteria results in Harvard bending over for the Muslim community — something they would never do for Catholics or for Jews,” he said.
“Mr. Ibish talks about the element of ogling or looking at these women. What does that veil say about the rest of us? It says our eyes cannot be trusted because we’ll leer at those women. Let them work out like everybody else.”
Ibish angrily retorted that the Harvard’s action was nondiscriminatory.
“You can’t convince me that this is going to be an onerous discrimination of the oppressed males of Harvard,” Ibish said. “This is just a very small concession, a few hours in one gym out of many, to allow some women who want to exercise in private. Under the law, no way is this discriminatory.”
Smerconish and Ibish agreed that fair play could come in the form of a corresponding gym allowing only male-access hours. But the mutuality stopped there.
“It would never happen and you know it,” he told Ibish.
“If men wanted it, it would,” Ibish responded.
© 2007 MSNBC Interactive
URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23556551/
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments
It's bad foreign policy for starters, and it's what causes wars.
and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
over specific principles, goals, and policies.
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well, there's nothing that says those muslim girls aren't american.
personally, I think the girls 1) better be spending every one of those 6 hours in the gym and 2) should fork over the extra cash to go to the all women's private gym at the next T stop if it's that important to them.
I'm sure there are plenty of men who can only get to the gym during those time periods. Now all of the sudden they are forced to re arrange their schedule for a handful of women.
at a regular private gym, those hours are considered off-peak. however, at a university, as I am well aware, those are on-peak hours.
I don't see the problem with it. 6 hours out of 70? I'm sure the men can find some times within those 70 hours to work out. Also, that one guy in the article is a real idiot.
People on here would be bashing them and saying they are being typical arrogant Americans.
I agree with what Roland said, you shouldn't go into other peoples countries and try to impose your beliefs.
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I just finished grad school at a university bigger than harvard and there were no women's only gyms...I don't think harvard actually has that many gyms. People are talking like there's 5 or something, I think there's like 3 at the MOST. maybe only 2. Harvard really isn't that big.
I've belonged to Women's only gyms, and really I think they suck. Anyone who thinks guys will "ogle" every woman who works out in a co-ed gym is way off- you get ogled way more in a women's gym. women comparing bodies constantly, hanging around the locker room completely naked, and you still get checked out by lesbians! I really don't get the point of an all women's gym overall. that said, the point these girls made was religious, so fine. however, I don't think there are enough people on campus with same type of religious belief AND who are affected by it to justify it. the point isn't really that it's only a few hours. I think of it this way, say I've got a problem that makes me uncomfortable to work out infront of *anyone* could I ask my university to close the gym to everyone but me for a few hours? I don't think so. it is a purely a question of catering to one religion, not a feminist issue.
also, under the new schedule, these girls are only working out 2 days per week. that's hardly even worth it.
I agree with you that women's only gyms are weird. On an entirely superficial note, at the coed gym I go only a small percentage of them women there working out are super hot to the point where I am going to look at them (and most of those are staff and trainers). Although there must be a demand for them otherwise they wouldn't be opening all the time. And I don't think it is just a religious thing otherwise they would be backed by religious groups not the Harvard Women's Center.
As far as Harvard not having many gyms there is this quote from the article:
And as far as people saying that they are bothered by the gym being closed to satisfy the needs of 6 people, I am wondering how they would feel if the gym had to be closed for a few months to make it wheelchair accessible if there were only 6 people who needed that. I know they are not exactly the same situations, but I am curious about opinions, since it is the same result where the needs of a very small number of people are inconveniencing a much larger group.
Perhaps you're right. Maybe religion is a disability that needs to be accommodated. Or maybe it is a choice they made that people in wheelchairs can't make.
I realize that, infact I even said in my post that they were not exactly the same situation. Do you suggest I go back and change that part of my post to bold? All my post said was that it would be the same result and I was wondering what people's opinion of that situation would be.
people in wheelchairs cannot climb stairs so they are unable to access the gym....
these women have no physical impediment stopping them from utilizing the gym like everyone else.....
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It says "one of the gyms"
why would you need to close a gym to make it wheelchair accessible? I see people working out in wheelchairs with everyone else.
I just see it as a slippery slope. you're never going to make everyone happy. if you start going out of your way to accommodate one small group, then where do you draw the line? especially when it comes to a gym, everyone has peeves about the gym where a change would make them personally more comfortable. hell, when I was in grad school, I would have loved it if they made "no undergrad" gym hours, but that would have been considered unreasonable.
also I just want add...college is pretty much all about communal living. I wasn't too thrilled about showing up on campus and having to share a bathroom with 20 guys, but that's the way it goes, I chose to go to that college. If it's THAT important to you, go to an all women's college or find one with a women's gym or something.
But it seems like the super devout religious people that care should think about rounding up some money to have a women only gym built somewhere on campus that grants special accomodations and or caters to the various religous workout needs.
It's a little ridiculous to try and be all things to all people. At some point if you're going to be super devout in whatever sect you happen to be a part of... you really need to move off campus and work out in your home where you can control everything. Any "public" or common facility needs to be structured around meeting the needs of the most amount of people who want to or have paid to use it or the people who cause use denial should pay the school money to refund to the people who are denied service.
If you needed to do major renovations to make it accessible then you would probably need to close it down during construction. You can't really have people working out in a construction site. I know my gym the main entrance is a super steep flight of stairs, if they did want to convert that, not to mention the stairwell to the changerooms, you would probably have to shut the whole place down. Shuting down for a couple of months for construction would be a similar inconvenience to shutting down for a couple hours each day.
I'm not crazy about a school bowing down to six students though.
was like a picture
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“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
oh well that's like a totally different issue then. most building codes these days require accessibility. plus if you're talking about private businesses, you can't really control what they do- havard is a private business yes, but the students have more sway than average customers who could easily just opt for the gym down the street. there's an elevator at my gym, and I think pretty much all the other ones I've been to. there's even a ramp over a slight raise up to the classroom.
exactly. I went to a really small college where almost everyone lived on campus and ate in one dining hall. they tried to accommodate as many people as possible with the food choices and did a very good job, however, they allowed who still could not be accommodated to apply to live off campus and off the food plan so they could make their own food (in fact people who just wanted to live off campus often abused this and said they had some weird food allergy or something to get permission!)
I know it is somewhat different, but a lot of the comments of people against this plan is that why should a large group of people be inconvenienced to accomodate a much smaller one. That is why I asked how people would feel if they had to go to a different gym because the one they went to had to be closed down to make it accessible after 6 people (or even 1 person) complained.
Personally I don't really have a problem with what Harvard is doing, since it is not like they are closing down the gym during these for everyone except the 6 women who complained, they are just making it women only.
and gyms!
Nowhere in the article does it state that these women are immigrants. Just a reminder, being Muslim indicates the religious philosophy you adhere to, not your nationality. As someone else pointed out, who says these women are not American?