I would rather have President Chavez than George Bush

NMyTree

One more thing on this Chavez or Bush, thing.


If someone offers me a choice of dog shit or cow shit, for dinner; I'll exercise my right to a third...maybe fourth option.

Just because someone offers me two different turds, doesn't measn I have no other option but the two turds.

I'll decline both turds and seek better eating options.

Maybe more Americans should start thinking along these lines.

callen

beemster wrote:

I feel for her and anyone else that has lost a loved one whether it is in war or by other means.

But did her son volunteer for military service?

Anytime you join the military, there is always the possibility of war, and with war comes death, and that is just the unfortunate reality.

no doubt...to protect his country......going into Iraq was not to protect this country...it was wrong...bad decision..and if you had a son/daughter that was lost in this war (and I'm using the word war loosely) you'd be pretty pissed off too.....think about it....she lost her son....has to be devastating...and the reason's this president stated her son made the ultimate sacrifice have all been proven false...you'd be just as livid and fanatical as Cindy.....weapons, ties to Iraq, immenent threat....nucular (bush spelling) threat...was all BS. Cut her some slack...alot of slack...she deserves it. As to those that say she's wacked...your the ones that are wacked, confused, and disallusioned.

monkey spanker

callen wrote:

no doubt...to protect his country......going into Iraq was not to protect this country...it was wrong...bad decision..and if you had a son/daughter that was lost in this war (and I'm using the word war loosely) you'd be pretty pissed off too.....think about it....she lost her son....has to be devastating...and the reason's this president stated her son made the ultimate sacrifice have all been proven false...you'd be just as livid and fanatical as Cindy.....weapons, ties to Iraq, immenent threat....nucular (bush spelling) threat...was all BS. Cut her some slack...alot of slack...she deserves it. As to those that say she's wacked...your the ones that are wacked, confused, and disallusioned.

okay, all that is BS. i know several military families, and none of them feel that way. you listen to al gore too much.

norm

NMyTree wrote:

" I would rather have President Chavez than George Bush "


Then you are obviously ill-informed of Chavez.

Don't believe the hype. There are millions of very angry people in his country and he has hung most of them out to dry.

The money from the Oil, is not being used to build, rebuild or repair the infrastructure and cities. Only in a few isolated cases has he used the money for the infrastructure. Interestingly, it was to help his small and exclusive circle of rich buddies. Everyone else is hung out to dry.

Sounds familiar. Calling Dick Cheney; Dick, Haliburton is calling.

sliverstain

NMyTree wrote:

The money from the Oil, is not being used to build, rebuild or repair the infrastructure and cities. Only in a few isolated cases has he used the money for the infrastructure. Interestingly, it was to help his small and exclusive circle of rich buddies. Everyone else is hung out to dry.

Less about Bush, what of Chavez and his economic reforms?

callen

jsand wrote:

She does have the right, but we have the right to criticize what she says, and a lot of what she says is ridiculous.

courious...what has she said...that sounds rediculous..and again from the point of view of a mother that lost her son in the Iraq conflict.

lukin2006

Rockin'InCanada wrote:

Even if the war is unjust and based on some faulty info. you did subject yourself to that possibility.....

Americans have a history of getting in wars they probably shouldn't. Parents should maybe educate their children about the possibility that they could go to war. Then if they still join, at least its an educated choice.

The Iraq war has been brewing ever since the first gulf war ended anyways.

lukin2006

callen wrote:

no doubt...to protect his country......going into Iraq was not to protect this country...it was wrong...bad decision..and if you had a son/daughter that was lost in this war (and I'm using the word war loosely) you'd be pretty pissed off too.....think about it....she lost her son....has to be devastating...and the reason's this president stated her son made the ultimate sacrifice have all been proven false...you'd be just as livid and fanatical as Cindy.....weapons, ties to Iraq, immenent threat....nucular (bush spelling) threat...was all BS. Cut her some slack...alot of slack...she deserves it. As to those that say she's wacked...your the ones that are wacked, confused, and disallusioned.

He still volunteered. He had choice, that choice was not to join.

NMyTree

cutback wrote:

Sounds familiar.

Doesn't it? That was the point. Why choose between two turds, when have we other options?

NMyTree

sliverstain wrote:

Less about Bush, what of Chavez and his economic reforms?

If you were paying attention, you would have noticed that the similarities between Bush/Cheney and Chavez are uncanny.

As for economic reforms in Venezuela, at this point in time, that is nothing more then a verbal smoke-screen and fictional-political PR inititive. No such thing has ocuured, nor are there any signs of such a thing being put into effect.

Try talking to some Venezuelians and see what they have to say on the subject, lol.

RockinInCanada

NMyTree wrote:

If you were paying attention, you would have noticed that the similarities between Bush/Cheney and Chavez are uncanny.

As for economic reforms in Venezuela, at this point in time, that is nothing more then a verbal smoke-screen and fictional-political PR inititive. No such thing has ocuured, nor are there any signs of such a thing being put into effect.

Try talking to some Venezuelians and see what they have to say on the subject, lol.

So is this guy been all talk?

Big promises but nothing to show for it.....

NMyTree

Rockin'InCanada wrote:

So is this guy been all talk?

Big promises but nothing to show for it.....

Interestingly, there was a member here a few weeks back, who had gone to Venezuela to visit her family and came back with a very negative report and experience of Chavez's contributions and work for their citizens and infrastructure.

Her comments got my curiosity up, on this subject.

Roughly 13 years ago I was working in a management position for a corporation in New Jersey. I made some good friends with several people there and for many years we worked side-by-side. Two of them are Venezuelian.

After thinking about what that MT member said, I called them both up, to see if they had any insight. Well, it took some doing because both of them had moved on from the company and one moved out of New Jersey. But after contacting mutual friends and running them down, I was able to reach both.

I didn't really expect that they would have similar opinions on the subject, but to my surprise they both conveyed similar stories and opinions, as the MT member.

They both have remaining families there and they spoke of a divided populace.

As well as deteriating infrastructures and scarce quality health care facitlites (hospitals, doctors and such). She also said in some areas people are having a difficult time getting food and clean water. Not a pretty picture.

It was their opinions that Chavez has doing practically nothing for the people, but his wealthy supporters are getting much of what they want.

Sounds so very familiar, doesn't it?

RockinInCanada

NMyTree wrote:

Interestingly, there was a member here a few weeks back, who had gone to Venezuela to visit her family and came back with a very negative report and experience of Chavez's contributions and work for their citizens and infrastructure.

Her comments got my curiosity up, on this subject.

Roughly 13 years ago I was working in a management position for a corporation in New Jersey. I made some good friends with several people there and for many years we worked side-by-side. Two of them are Venezuelian.

After thinking about what that MT member said, I called them both up, to see if they had any insight. Well, it took some doing because both of them had moved on from the company and one moved out of New Jersey. But after contacting mutual friends and running them down, I was able to reach both.

I didn't really expect that they would have similar opinions on the subject, but to my surprise they both conveyed similar stories and opinions, as the MT member.

They both have remaining families there and they spoke of a divided populace.

As well as deteriating infrastructures and scarce quality health care facitlites (hospitals, doctors and such). She also said in some areas people are having a difficult time getting food and clean water. Not a pretty picture.

It was their opinions that Chavez has doing practically nothing for the people, but his wealthy supporters are getting much of what they want.

Sounds so very familiar, doesn't it?

Interesting.....thanks for the info. What exactly has he promised to offer....and how is that some people view him any different than the sterotyped South American leader who helps the wealthy and uses promises on the poor?

jeffbr

NMyTree wrote:

Interestingly, there was a member here a few weeks back, who had gone to Venezuela to visit her family and came back with a very negative report and experience of Chavez's contributions and work for their citizens and infrastructure.

Her comments got my curiosity up, on this subject.

It was a thread started by CaterinaA. She had an interesting, first-hand perspective. Definitly worth the read for those who missed it: http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=209013

CaterinaA

Rockin'InCanada wrote:

So is this guy been all talk?

Big promises but nothing to show for it.....

Well, I've just visited Venezuela three weeks ago and in my opinion, yes, it is a lot of talking and very little action. I'd not been in Venezuela since 1997 and it was a real shock to find Caracas looking almost exactly like it did 9 years, except for the fact that the amount of slum dwells had largely increased and that many streets of Caracas made me wonder if the country was at war, 'cause the size of the holes in the streets was unbelievable.

About economic facts. Well, poverty and inequality have increased between 1998 and 2003 (latest available data). Also food imports are reaching an all time high.

Here's the link to my impressions about my trip Venezuela:
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=209013

Peace from Argentina
Caterina

RockinInCanada

CaterinaA wrote:

Well, I've just visited Venezuela three weeks ago and in my opinion, yes, it is a lot of talking and very little action. I'd not been in Venezuela since 1997 and it was a real shock to find Caracas looking almost exactly like it did 9 years, except for the fact that the amount of slum dwells had largely increased and that many streets of Caracas made me wonder if the country was at war, 'cause the size of the holes in the streets was unbelievable.

About economic facts. Well, poverty and inequality have increased between 1998 and 2003 (latest available data). Also food imports are reaching an all time high.

Here's the link to my impressions about my trip Venezuela:
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=209013

Peace from Argentina
Caterina

Thanks for the info.....and the link....

CaterinaA

Rockin'InCanada wrote:

Interesting.....thanks for the info. What exactly has he promised to offer....and how is that some people view him any different than the sterotyped South American leader who helps the wealthy and uses promises on the poor?

Well, here's my opinion as both a South American inhabitant and as a professional working in a project devoted to analysing political junctures and issues of Latin America. Chavez has much better press in Europe, and generally speaking in developed countries, than here in Latin America.

Here in Latinamerica the most respected politicians, in general terms, are Frmr. President Ricardo Lagos (Chile), Frmr. President Fernando Henrique Cardoso (Brasil), President Tavare Vazquez (Uruguay).

Again, generally speaking, the country most quoted , or considered as a reference, for other Latinamerican countries (leaving aside developed countries, of course) is Chile. Chile's success in reducing poverty since the return of democracy is quite an example for all of us. Of course Chile has a lot to accomplish yet, but many believe the country is on the right path...

DMBlover

Yes Bush is out of touch and I would compare him to the devil but Chavez is phsyco. I would suggest moving to Venezuala and see if you survive.

RockinInCanada

CaterinaA wrote:

Well, here's my opinion as both a South American inhabitant and as a professional working in a project devoted to analysing political junctures and issues of Latin America. Chavez has much better press in Europe, and generally speaking in developed countries, than here in Latin America.

Here in Latinamerica the most respected politicians, in general terms, are Frmr. President Ricardo Lagos (Chile), Frmr. President Fernando Henrique Cardoso (Brasil), President Tavare Vazquez (Uruguay).

Again, generally speaking, the country most quoted , or considered as a reference, for other Latinamerican countries (leaving aside developed countries, of course) is Chile. Chile's success in reducing poverty since the return of democracy is quite an example for all of us. Of course Chile has a lot to accomplish yet, but many believe the country is on the right path...

What has Chile began that other SA countries could use as a template?

Sorry for my ignorance but my knowledge in this part of the world is rather limited.

CaterinaA

Rockin'InCanada wrote:

What has Chile began that other SA countries could use as a template?

Sorry for my ignorance but my knowledge in this part of the world is rather limited.

Well, there are many features of Chile that other Latinamerican countries could use as an example, like the fact that institutions work, justice works, there is little corruption between politicians and those who are caught most of the time have to face prosecution or a trial or some kind of a sanction, tax evasion in Chile is very low, there is little discretional public expenditure, the government has to account for its actions, economic policy is balanced between fiscal responsibility and social expenditure, even though Cooper (Chile's main natural resource) has reached historic prices the goverment is saving all the excedents instead of succumbing to the temptation of spending it without actually analyzing which sector of the country could benefit with extra-public expenditure...and mot remarkably: poverty, between 1990 and 2003 diminished from 36.6% to 18.6%, that's 20 percentile points in a decade. For developed countries 18.6% is a lot, but for Latinamerican standards is quite low, and the decreasing trend has kept its path, hence when new data is available poverty should be lower...

Of course, and I'll say it again, Chile has to improve in many areas, like inequality, education (there are significant gaps in terms of quality), improve the social protection system in general and investment in R&D, and others. However, many analysts, academics and politicians believe that Chile could actually become a developed country in a decade or so...

My lunch has just arrived, but I'll provide you some links about Chile. Manuel Castells (the Spanish sociologist) has written a lot about Chile's evolution since the return of democracy...

Peace from Argentina
Caterina