I'm not disagreeing with you that, yes, we are not currently anywhere near what these Middle East countries practice. And I agree that it is because we are a more open society. What I'm saying is, we can "afford" to be more open. We have more options so therefore we don't produce as many nuts - In fact, I think we agree more than we're letting on.
It's our society that keeps the religious fundamentalists down - and when politicians take up the torch for these fundamentalists, it bothers me. Because, as I see it, there is no inherent superiority to be found in Christianity over Islam. Given the right circumstances, it can be just as nasty. And there are many people living in this country that want it to be.
We probably were agreeing more than we thought, because I agree with pretty much your entire post.
That's Hizbollah, yes. And there are problems having them brought under lebanese control, obviously. But the events that occurred did little to harm them and more to gain for them.
In any case, Hizbollah has little to do with "global terrorism" in any way, as they are sticking to the one (arguably legitimate) conflict with Israel over disputed lands. They may be stalling and prolonging conflict to their own needs of course, but is in no way anything like Al Quaeda and it's ilk. Same for Hamas, which is exclusively about fighting Israel. Those are guerillas and political parties, sure, engaged in a defined conflict in a specific area. And has little in common with the global terrorists.
I dont like them, but they are not fascists.
Peace
Dan
I agree with most of that. I was more or less saying that, though they may not be fascists, the organization as a whole certainly isnt democratic.
Forgive me for saying this, but of all the countries in the world. Which one pushes nationalism the most? The United States of America!
Which one forces it's government on other countries? The United States of America!
Which one has a leader that wishes to be dictator? The United States of America!
Which countries leader is driven by religious and corporate ties? The United States of America!
The list goes on and on, but in all definitions or aspects of Fascism the USA fits in quite nicely. I don't mean to bash the USA too much, but most of what we are seeing in the Islamic world today is a direct result of US actions in the middle-east and the arab world. What we see is a result of fascism.
Think about it, here is what the US does. They see a country that doesn't operate on their level, perhaps they do something like cut off the hand of a theif or allow men to beat their wives. That's not a lot different than the US in the past and Capital Punishment is still practiced in some states. Is it right for the US who's hands are hardly clean to invoke upon it's equals it's own beliefs? No. Perhaps the US society has evolved and religion isn't as influential as it was in the past. Do you see the similarities? Perhaps the islamic states are like old version of the US, with a lot more outside pressure and interferrance from places like the US.
That's the way I see it. You make the bed, you sleep in it. Don't complain now because forced democracy and irrational sanctions don't work. They backfire, do you get as involved in your neighbours business?
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
Facism: A totalitarian philosophy of government that glorifies the state and nation and assigns to the state control over every aspect of national life.
Judging from the stated goals of Hamas, Hezbollah, Al Queda, Islamic Jihad, the Taliban, etc... this is what they want. To establish an Islamic Caliphate that has no outside intervention.
That's exactly what the Islamic extremists want. If it walks like a duck.......quack...quack.
Although, Bush throwing out yet another ill-advised catch phrase, such as that one, in light of some of the things this administration has been doing; seems rather ignorant, manipulative and hypocritical.
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
I see where you are coming from, but just becuase we have a bad administration does not change the fundamental nature of our country. We were founded upon the ideals of freedom and liberty, regardless of whose in the White House. Our congress voted for the war, so you can't blame that on Bush and claim that God is what our country is fighting for now.
It's one thing to have a government that puts "In god we trust" on the money or in the pledge of alleigance, or makes you swear to God in a court, doesn't appropriate money for stem cell research, outlaws sodomy and won't let homosexuals get married....
But it something ENTIRELY different to have a government hang homosexuals and adulters, whip and beat women who don't cover their bodies or show too much skin, outlaw all reglieons besides Islam, behead "infidels", sanction female genital mutilation, ban certain music/words.....
In fact, it's just insane that people talk about Bush being the "Hitler" and the worlds most dangerous man - when he opposes regimes that govern in the above-mentioned way.
Some people would have you think we're trying to nuke Switzerland or something... but he is just trying to check the influence of regimes like Iran and Syria.
Is he going about it the right way? Mostly no. Is he a jack-ass? Mostly yes...
But to promote such views that WE are the fascist and Bush is Hitler is just reprehensible....
Other than to occasionally amuse myself (and incense some of my Republican co-workers), I don't compare Bush to Hitler. And I don't think we've reached fascism yet.
But I say "yet" because the religious right in this country is fiercely nationalistic, and certainly has a fascistic streak a mile wide. They also command a good deal more power here than many like to admit. I hope they've reached the functional apex of their movement with George W. Bush (a movement that began consolidating into a political force thirty five or so years ago); but I know they won't go away without a fight. And they've got more than a few champions in our political sphere.
What I'm saying, and I think I mentioned this in another post, is that the reason we don't have beheadings and what-not here isn't because Christianity or Judaism is somehow superior to Islam - as some have opined. Instead, it is because of our belief in "the ideals of freedom and liberty" coupled with the relative comfort we enjoy in this country. Subject us to the same environment that many in the Middle East have to deal with on a regular basis, and you'd see that the fundamentalists in this country would be indistinguishable from the Muslim fundamentalists of the Middle East.
Except for the beards, of course.
What we need to do, if we're going to go on "checking the influence" of authoritarian regimes, is make sure we don't do it in a way that only strengthens the resolve of Muslim fundamentalists. But, instead we practically validate everything they believe about us. To me, that makes Bush a bit more than a jack-ass.
What isn't political about the preconception of Islamic Fascism?
I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
"President Bush said to all of us: 'I'm driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, "George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan." And I did, and then God would tell me, "George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq …" And I did. And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, "Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East." And by God I'm gonna do it.'"
Yeah, he sure did do it...
ok so if thats what Georgy Boy listens to - cant we just get someone to call him up
picture the conversation
" ring ring"
GB- "Prezident G here!"
G - "George. This is God. Go fuck off, and never come back"
GB- "Okely dokely, big fella."
and the jobs done!
Some people have to have the sultry evenings Cocktails in the blue, red and grey But I like every minute of the day.
INTER-FUCKING-MISSION!!!
Newcastle-Riverside 02/22/92!!!
E.rutherford New Jersey 01/06/06
Athens -Greece.survived !barely-
Wembley 18/06/07- no words- just smiles!
I don't know where to start. But after reading the posts, I just have to say that there is no way you can paint all Muslim groups and countries with the same brush, that they are fascists, or want a return to the Caliphate, all Muslim countries, groups have their own set of problems, issues, platforms, etc. I just find, not just on this thread, but on the moving train as a whole a few people generalize and state Muslims this and Muslims that, how many Muslims are there worldwide? a billion plus. To accuse or make broad statements about a people who number a billion plus is dangerous and deceitful.
So Bush says that Iran and other groups are fascist. What about Saudi Arabia, by the criteria that Iran, Hamas, etc. are judged fascist, wouldn't Saudia Arabia be found guilty also? They are a monarchy, Iran,etc. are more democratic than our good friends Saudi Arabia, but they never get mentioned, do they? This isn't about democracy, this isn't about Muslims and Christianity, it is about power and greed, which can be found in people of all religions and races.
". . . You declare, my friend, that you do not hate the Jews, you are merely 'anti-Zionist.' And I say, let the truth ring forth from the high mountain tops, let it echo through the valleys of God's green earth: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--this is God's own truth.
"Antisemitism, the hatred of the Jewish people, has been and remains a blot on the soul of mankind. In this we are in full agreement. So know also this: anti-Zionist is inherently antisemitic, and ever will be so.
"Why is this? You know that Zionism is nothing less than the dream and ideal of the Jewish people returning to live in their own land. The Jewish people, the Scriptures tell us, once enjoyed a flourishing Commonwealth in the Holy Land. From this they were expelled by the Roman tyrant, the same Romans who cruelly murdered Our Lord. Driven from their homeland, their nation in ashes, forced to wander the globe, the Jewish people time and again suffered the lash of whichever tyrant happened to rule over them.
"The Negro people, my friend, know what it is to suffer the torment of tyranny under rulers not of our choosing. Our brothers in Africa have begged, pleaded, requested--DEMANDED the recognition and realization of our inborn right to live in peace under our own sovereignty in our own country.
"How easy it should be, for anyone who holds dear this inalienable right of all mankind, to understand and support the right of the Jewish People to live in their ancient Land of Israel. All men of good will exult in the fulfilment of God's promise, that his People should return in joy to rebuild their plundered land.
This is Zionism, nothing more, nothing less.
"And what is anti-Zionist? It is the denial to the Jewish people of a fundamental right that we justly claim for the people of Africa and freely accord all other nations of the Globe. It is discrimination against Jews, my friend, because they are Jews. In short, it is antisemitism.
"The antisemite rejoices at any opportunity to vent his malice. The times have made it unpopular, in the West, to proclaim openly a hatred of the Jews. This being the case, the antisemite must constantly seek new forms and forums for his poison. How he must revel in the new masquerade! He does not hate the Jews, he is just 'anti-Zionist'!
"My friend, I do not accuse you of deliberate antisemitism. I know you feel, as I do, a deep love of truth and justice and a revulsion for racism, prejudice, and discrimination. But I know you have been misled--as others have been--into thinking you can be 'anti-Zionist' and yet remain true to these heartfelt principles that you and I share.
Let my words echo in the depths of your soul: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--make no mistake about it."
From M.L. King Jr., "Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend," Saturday Review_XLVII (Aug. 1967)
______________
Irvine 1992, Las Vegas 1993, Mountain View 1994, San Diego 1995, Los Angeles 1996, Los Angeles 1998, Moutain View 1999, San Bernadino 2000, Los Angeles 2000, Irvine 2003, Irvine 2003, Moutain View 2003, Santa Barbara 2003, San Diego 2006, Los Angeles 2006, Santa Barbara 2006
Comments
We probably were agreeing more than we thought, because I agree with pretty much your entire post.
I agree with most of that. I was more or less saying that, though they may not be fascists, the organization as a whole certainly isnt democratic.
Which one forces it's government on other countries? The United States of America!
Which one has a leader that wishes to be dictator? The United States of America!
Which countries leader is driven by religious and corporate ties? The United States of America!
The list goes on and on, but in all definitions or aspects of Fascism the USA fits in quite nicely. I don't mean to bash the USA too much, but most of what we are seeing in the Islamic world today is a direct result of US actions in the middle-east and the arab world. What we see is a result of fascism.
Think about it, here is what the US does. They see a country that doesn't operate on their level, perhaps they do something like cut off the hand of a theif or allow men to beat their wives. That's not a lot different than the US in the past and Capital Punishment is still practiced in some states. Is it right for the US who's hands are hardly clean to invoke upon it's equals it's own beliefs? No. Perhaps the US society has evolved and religion isn't as influential as it was in the past. Do you see the similarities? Perhaps the islamic states are like old version of the US, with a lot more outside pressure and interferrance from places like the US.
That's the way I see it. You make the bed, you sleep in it. Don't complain now because forced democracy and irrational sanctions don't work. They backfire, do you get as involved in your neighbours business?
That's exactly what the Islamic extremists want. If it walks like a duck.......quack...quack.
Although, Bush throwing out yet another ill-advised catch phrase, such as that one, in light of some of the things this administration has been doing; seems rather ignorant, manipulative and hypocritical.
Oh is this the shallow one-liner board?
But I say "yet" because the religious right in this country is fiercely nationalistic, and certainly has a fascistic streak a mile wide. They also command a good deal more power here than many like to admit. I hope they've reached the functional apex of their movement with George W. Bush (a movement that began consolidating into a political force thirty five or so years ago); but I know they won't go away without a fight. And they've got more than a few champions in our political sphere.
What I'm saying, and I think I mentioned this in another post, is that the reason we don't have beheadings and what-not here isn't because Christianity or Judaism is somehow superior to Islam - as some have opined. Instead, it is because of our belief in "the ideals of freedom and liberty" coupled with the relative comfort we enjoy in this country. Subject us to the same environment that many in the Middle East have to deal with on a regular basis, and you'd see that the fundamentalists in this country would be indistinguishable from the Muslim fundamentalists of the Middle East.
Except for the beards, of course.
What we need to do, if we're going to go on "checking the influence" of authoritarian regimes, is make sure we don't do it in a way that only strengthens the resolve of Muslim fundamentalists. But, instead we practically validate everything they believe about us. To me, that makes Bush a bit more than a jack-ass.
What isn't political about the preconception of Islamic Fascism?
ok so if thats what Georgy Boy listens to - cant we just get someone to call him up
picture the conversation
" ring ring"
GB- "Prezident G here!"
G - "George. This is God. Go fuck off, and never come back"
GB- "Okely dokely, big fella."
and the jobs done!
INTER-FUCKING-MISSION!!!
Newcastle-Riverside 02/22/92!!!
E.rutherford New Jersey 01/06/06
Athens -Greece.survived !barely-
Wembley 18/06/07- no words- just smiles!
So Bush says that Iran and other groups are fascist. What about Saudi Arabia, by the criteria that Iran, Hamas, etc. are judged fascist, wouldn't Saudia Arabia be found guilty also? They are a monarchy, Iran,etc. are more democratic than our good friends Saudi Arabia, but they never get mentioned, do they? This isn't about democracy, this isn't about Muslims and Christianity, it is about power and greed, which can be found in people of all religions and races.
- Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
". . . You declare, my friend, that you do not hate the Jews, you are merely 'anti-Zionist.' And I say, let the truth ring forth from the high mountain tops, let it echo through the valleys of God's green earth: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--this is God's own truth.
"Antisemitism, the hatred of the Jewish people, has been and remains a blot on the soul of mankind. In this we are in full agreement. So know also this: anti-Zionist is inherently antisemitic, and ever will be so.
"Why is this? You know that Zionism is nothing less than the dream and ideal of the Jewish people returning to live in their own land. The Jewish people, the Scriptures tell us, once enjoyed a flourishing Commonwealth in the Holy Land. From this they were expelled by the Roman tyrant, the same Romans who cruelly murdered Our Lord. Driven from their homeland, their nation in ashes, forced to wander the globe, the Jewish people time and again suffered the lash of whichever tyrant happened to rule over them.
"The Negro people, my friend, know what it is to suffer the torment of tyranny under rulers not of our choosing. Our brothers in Africa have begged, pleaded, requested--DEMANDED the recognition and realization of our inborn right to live in peace under our own sovereignty in our own country.
"How easy it should be, for anyone who holds dear this inalienable right of all mankind, to understand and support the right of the Jewish People to live in their ancient Land of Israel. All men of good will exult in the fulfilment of God's promise, that his People should return in joy to rebuild their plundered land.
This is Zionism, nothing more, nothing less.
"And what is anti-Zionist? It is the denial to the Jewish people of a fundamental right that we justly claim for the people of Africa and freely accord all other nations of the Globe. It is discrimination against Jews, my friend, because they are Jews. In short, it is antisemitism.
"The antisemite rejoices at any opportunity to vent his malice. The times have made it unpopular, in the West, to proclaim openly a hatred of the Jews. This being the case, the antisemite must constantly seek new forms and forums for his poison. How he must revel in the new masquerade! He does not hate the Jews, he is just 'anti-Zionist'!
"My friend, I do not accuse you of deliberate antisemitism. I know you feel, as I do, a deep love of truth and justice and a revulsion for racism, prejudice, and discrimination. But I know you have been misled--as others have been--into thinking you can be 'anti-Zionist' and yet remain true to these heartfelt principles that you and I share.
Let my words echo in the depths of your soul: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--make no mistake about it."
From M.L. King Jr., "Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend," Saturday Review_XLVII (Aug. 1967)
Irvine 1992, Las Vegas 1993, Mountain View 1994, San Diego 1995, Los Angeles 1996, Los Angeles 1998, Moutain View 1999, San Bernadino 2000, Los Angeles 2000, Irvine 2003, Irvine 2003, Moutain View 2003, Santa Barbara 2003, San Diego 2006, Los Angeles 2006, Santa Barbara 2006