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Supporting the Troops
Jeremy2009
Posts: 53
I understand the majority of PJ's music is charged politically especially with whats going on throughout the world. Im an active duty military member and would really like to express to those who are completely unaware and ignorant that the majority of people who are in the military do so not for being a republican over a democrat but the fact that were all Americans and that freedom and democracy are a great thing. So are people confusing "supporting the troops" with "supporting the politicans?" I would really like some honest responses.
Support the Troops
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I think Iraq is a stupid war, but I don't blame the military for being stupid. It was the decision of politicians, not mr. foxhole grunt, to go to war. Of course, the military does what its told. That's what makes it a military.
But, I have to disagree with what you said about why a majority of people who serve in the military choose to do so. If it were really about protecting freedom and democracy, there would be no need for $20,000 bonuses, the GI Bill, promises of technical/vocational training, and just about every other benefit that is derived from being in the military OTHER THAN the opportunity to protect America's shores.
Let's face it: Our military would forever be running on a skeleton crew were it not for the 18 y/o high school grad who has no fucking idea about what he's going to do with the rest of his life.
There are exceptions to that of course. But, that's what they are: exceptions. I'm not saying that serving isn't an experience that makes soldiers feel proud as hell about what their doing. But, do they personally care about freedom, or do they care about being heros? I think what is often overlooked is that there is a tremendous difference between the two.
That is, they think to themselves, "I am a hero; therefore, I must truly care about freedom and democracy." Heroism is nothing more than the gaining of admiration. Do people enjoy being admired? Certainly. But does that admiration really have anything to do with a heartfelt desire to ensure equality and democracy? Doubt it.
If it were possible, I would join a fire dept tomorrow and proudly dance around in my firefighter's outfit. Does mean I give a fuck about putting out fires? No way, man. I want all the pussy that comes with the job. I want to be a hero.
That isn't to say that I don't have all the respect in the world for our military. I'm just not going to kid myself about why people choose to join it and serve in it. Did you see "Jarhead"? What is the reason why Jamie Fox stays in the marines even though he could have a lucrative job at home? He likes the action. He doesn't say, "I want to protect freedom and democracy."
Everybody likes to kick ass. That's why the army has an official video game. Have you ever wondered how many people who play that game are actually fantasizing about protecting freedom and establishing democracy? It's all about being a part of the world's most bad-ass military. The army knows this. Do americans know this? I wonder.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
Well, the way I see it... it is really a small percentage of Americans that are actually making the sacrifices in this 'War On Terror'... the soldiers themselves and their families. The rest of us... we aren't sacrificing shit. Hell, we're not even paying for any of this... instead, we're passing the bill on to our kids and their kids to pay for. We love our freedom... but, come on, we love our precious tax cuts more than God or country. All we have to do is purchase a 2 dollar magnet that was made in China, slap it on the tailgate of our 7 MPG truck based vehicle and we're "Gittin' er done".
We have to come to the understanding in this country that our military personel are a precious resource that we cannot afford to waste on political or economic agendas. They are here to protect us, from enemies both foriegn and domestic. We don't go to war with the Army we've got... we send in our fighting men and women with all the resources this nation can muster... this means EVERYONE pulls their weight to make sure our troops have the best equipment and support to make their jobs survivable. A 'Gratefull Nation' is supposed to do these things... we are more like a 'Selfish Nation' that wants to shoot and forget and not be bothered with flag draped coffins... we don't want to hear about that icky stuff. Just give us John Wayne stories and we're all happy and shit.
And nothing makes me angrier than the "They should have known what they signed up for" or the "No one put a gun to their head to enlist" statements made by pansy ass civilians that think war is a video game we see on CNN. That is NOT supporting anyone... it is you being a complete asshole. And although he prepares for war, no one prays for peace more than the common foot soldier because it all comes to rest upon his shoulders.
Our military is not something to use on a whim or because blowing up stuff is fun. We, as a nation, have to think long and hard about the long term commitment we are asking of our soldiers when we send them into harm's way. It's not a fucking game. It is something that requires critical thinking to set a path and prepare for all sort of scenarios and have contingency plans at the ready.
So, you ask me? I support our fighting men and women... but, not the loosely defined task they have been assigned. I blame the assholes in suits, behind desks for making one poor decision after another in his recent action. We were supposed to have learned from Viet Nam... the guys in the uniforms should fight the war, not the guys in suit with law degrees on their walls.
Hail, Hail!!!
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
We need you at home, because freedom and democracy aint what it used to be here. What you're attempting to do in the Middle East is commendable, and extremely honorable...but I can't even walk down the streets of my own city at night, bro. How is that not terrorism? How is that freedom?
America's version of freedom and democracy will not work in Iraq, for reasosns that have nothing to do with your enormous sacrifice...and I don't want you to die trying to liberate the Iraqi people when there are better fights to be fought and won right here at home.
Please be as safe as you can.
old music: http://www.myspace.com/slowloader
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120188/
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I don't know why you originally decided to join the military, but I seriously doubt it was to help the needy. Later on, you just happened to be in a place where needy people were, and you helped them. I don't think that makes you Mother Theresa. Everybody likes to help the needy.
And then you talk about places like N. Korea. Well, N. Korea is exactly why this war in Iraq is a total and complete misuse of military resources. It's an abuse of power. Does it really matter if Clinton would've done the same thing? Do two wrongs make a right? The fact is that it's wrong. All you're really doing with that argument is making this a left vs. right discussion.
Anyway...back to N. Korea. If helping oppressed communist societies was really in our agenda, then we would be helping N. Korea. We'd be helping Cuba. We'd be helping those little countries in S. America a lot more than we do. But, you see, the problem is that there isn't any oil in those countries. Maybe someone will discover a fossil fuel deposit in N. Korea so we can invade it and "liberate" those poor, starving oppressed people.
I just don't see how you justify pointing your finger at people who criticize Iraq. Like I said, if you're such a righteous, selfless, humanitarian, then why don't you join the Peace Corps? Why not? Because they don't carry guns?
I have no doubt that great things are happening in Iraq. Those people are experiencing freedoms that they've basically never had. But, it just isn't why we're there. And it isn't why our guys are dying over there. They are dying for everything BUT democracy, freedom, and humanity. This blatant abuse of your dedication to the military should leave you feeling insulted; instead, you feel proud.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
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And never did I say that Bush or anyone in his camp will personally profit from oil. Cheney himself donated something like 6 of his 8 million dollars of profit last year to charity.
What I'm talking about is oil for this country. I'm talking about how, throughout history, wars have been about the acquistion and securing of resources for the welfare of nations. You don't really think we were liberating kuwait and defending Saudi Arabia because they were our allies, do you?
9/11 was an opportunity to seize control of oil in Iraq, and Bush capitalized on it in the interests of US prosperity. Personally, I think that's great. I like the idea that by turning Iraq into a democracy, we are ensuring that the oil will be flowing for years to come w/o our having to dip into our own reserves.
You don't believe me? Well, then why are we there? Is it to liberate an oppressed people and install a democracy where there wasn't one before?
If you believe that, then who is being naive? Since when has that ever been our agenda anywhere? Think of all the dictatorships and all of the oppressed societies throughout the world. Since when have we ever liberated ANY of them just for the sake of liberating them? Democracy is the end result, but never the reason.
So, no, I am not confusing the military with the politicians. I said it before in my first post. Where I think you are confused is when you think criticism of the war in Iraq is criticism of the military. Some people do criticize the military, but I am not one of them.
Think of it this way: You went to a junkyard because you needed a new car and you know how to restore them. Out of all the cars, you pick, say, a beat-up shelby mustang, bring it home, and make it look all nice and pretty.
Then you turn around and say, "Restoring old cars is great because I'm creating more space in the junkyard, thereby reducing junk build-up."
You didn't restore that mustang because you wanted to reduce junk build-up. You did it because you needed a new car. The junkyard guy is totally stoked because you're buying his junk and you're creating space for more junk, but that's not why you do it.
It's the same situation with the war in Iraq, except our soldiers are dying because a local classic car dealer needs direct access to the junkyard.
The truth of the matter is that while democracy is in fact being established, it's not really why our troops are dying. The fact that I choose to see it that way is what you might call "negative", but reality isn't nice. I support our troops; it's just too bad our government does not.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
My biggest concern in the world right now beyond the safety of our troops, is Darfour. Tens of thousands of people are getting slaughtered in Darfour while the world...not just America...the world...does nothing.
old music: http://www.myspace.com/slowloader
How could it possibly get worse if we do? I'm not sure if it's the right thing to do or not but I don't see Iraq being any worse off after that. Whatever happens those poor people are fucked because of the administration's unnecessary war, the majority of the American people's apathy, and the cowardace of the American media for not calling out the President when the reasons for war all turned out to be untrue.
"The question in my mind is how many additional American casualties is Saddam worth? And the answer is: not that damned many." --Dick Cheney, 1992
Let's not forget that those politicians were kept in office while this war was ongoing. Let's give credit (or rather put the blame) where it is due: those who voted to keep them in office.
I'll never forget the tears in my reservist neighbor the morning after Bush won. For me, it was a bummer. For him, it was potentially risking his life in a war he does not support but would have to fight.
Soldiers are ready to give "their lives for our freedom". The least we can do is to be discerning with our vote.
It's not about helping those poor people. It's about making sure that when we leave, we aren't also leaving a huge power vacuum that will be filled by another Taliban or another Ayatollah Khoemeini. If that happens, then we will just end up having to go back in there and take it over again, just like we're doing in Afghanistan.
Without a stable government, Iraq could very well end up being another Lebanon, which has been long suffering from a civil war that paved the way for extremist groups such as the Hezbollah.
By removing Saddam, we created a huge mess. We can't ignore that mess. We have to clean it up as if it were a dinner table after Thanksgiving dinner. Otherwise, the ants will come along and bring all the crumbs back to their queen, who will then increase her production of more ants. Sooner or later, the whole house will be infested with the ants.
Then we'll have to call the exterminator. The exterminator will ask, "Why did let the queen ant have all those thanksgiving crumbs? Why couldn't you just clean the table after you were done eating?"
We'll respond, "Because we realized that it's evil to slaughter turkeys, and we couldn't stand to look at what we had done. Plus, we were on a diet, and we just had to get away from the dinner table as soon as possible lest we start overeating."
The exterminator will respond, "That's the least thought-out rationale for not clearing a dinner table that I have ever heard."
Then we'll respond, "Well, you just like to kill ants, war-monger."
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
With bad people in charge still doing some justice but with the sacrifice of what makes humans good, is wrong to me.
Thank you so much for saying that, I find that true everywhere throughout the world. When politicians screw up they're always trying to save face. Very seldom to you ever see ANY political figures fess up. Awsome!
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I'm sick and tired of hearing things
From uptight, short-sighted, narrow-minded hypocrits
All I want is the truth
Just gimme some truth
I've had enough of reading things
By neurotic, psychotic, pig-headed politicians
All I want is the truth
Just gimme some truth
Somethings just don't change, my grandkids will probably be singing that song.
Asbury Park '21; MSG '22; Camden '22
I may play that for our schools show. 'This song was written along time ago. I think it's as meaningful now than ever'
So have I. Here's one:
http://www.hollywoodinterrupted.com/images/dollard5/head.jpg
Just as I thought, an EDITED picture. You see a person in uniform. You assume it's a person in the US military because you chose to EDIT the picture yourself or select one that was already EDITED. You dont know the whole story with that picture because if you did you whould have added it. Why dont you put up the pics of the civilian contractors that are beheaded or the Iraqi women and children that were raped and slaughtered by Saddam Hussien. You are exactly like the newspapers and television shows that take excerpts from a presidents speech and edit it to make it sound so ignorant and unbelievable. You should be ashamed of yourself. If a democrat does get elected in this next election and people are sent off to wars and die like in Iraq and Afghanistan I cant wait for the hypocratic people like yourself to blame the president whom you have chosen.
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And you're barking up the wrong tree if you came here to find a bunch of die-hard Democrats to argue with. The vast majority of the posters on the left have little or no use for the Democratic Party, and you'll find ample evidence of that as you read through various threads. Sure, I'd take 50 years of Clinton over another week of Bush if those were my only two options, but that says more about Bush than it does about Clinton or about my political affiliations ... I didn't vote for either one of them.
His point still stands though. Many people here are quick to pull up whatever picture/video suits their own political viewpoint…without pausing to give serious thought to where the picture came from, what the circumstances were, who is in it, or any other important consideration.
Innocent people died under Clinton's Presidency also. So while we might not be dealing with a lot of people who are die-hard Democrats…we are dealing with a lot of people here who continually vote FOR Democrats. It will be interesting to see if many of the liberal voices here are as loud in the future about war atrocities and social disconnect if a Democrat gets elected to office…especially if that Democrat sends us to war.
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First off, If you didnt vote then you should have no reason to to argue with the war or anything. You obviously dont care about education, lower healthcare costs or prescriptions drugs. Your name pretty much sums it up. Let me guess you want to legalize pot? As I said in my previous statement the picture you provided had no such explination of the situation except your title YOU wrote. It was just a picture with nothing to explain it's orgin or where a story could be found with it. You also said you would take 50 years of Clinton over a week of Bush. Clinton did nothing for this country except make Hollywood CA, The Whitehouse and the porn industry have one thing in common ...a SEX SCANDAL! But then again you didnt vote so it makes it okay. Well when we do get another democrat in office and everyone is in their little commune and everyone has become so PC that we have to "walk on eggshells" when were talking about one's race or nationaly Im sure it'll will be a lot easier for Kim Jong Ill and his other "Democratic" Peoples Army to come over here and take over since none of the money went to our national defense.
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Thanks for the comment. All I know is that there is no one correct party who will restore America, it takes sacrafices on both ends. And when the two are too stubborn to see whats right, things get fucked up!
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Clinton was not the only guy running in '92 or '96, nor Bush in '00 or '04. I'd be interested to hear your logic behind your assumption that because I did not vote for them, I did not vote at all. In fact, I have not missed a single primary or general election since turning 18 in 1980.
If you'd like to search for my old posts, I think you'll be satisified that I do ineed care a great deal about health care, education and prescription drugs. In fact, I think I've posted more on those topics than on any others.
My name was a joke given by a friend. It replaced my old Pearl Jam related name. I do think pot should be legalized, although I don't smoke it myself. I have met several people on this board in person, and I think they'd all agree that I'm no hippie.
I'm going to have to address the rest of your nonsense tomorrow, since my daughter needs to use the computer, and it's getting late anyway. See ya then!
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Right! Because anything which you don't happen to agree with, or which doesn't fit your conservative outlook, must necessarily be a fabrication.
I wish I were a die hard Republican. It seems that the world would appear so much more simple and black and white through Republican eyes.